[e90AW335i]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

And that he's comparing his results to that of a virtually stock car running 13psi of boost

shiv

And there is full disclosure of the mods.... That way people can form their own opinion...

[Terry335]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

And that he's comparing his results to that of a virtually stock car running 13psi of boost

shiv

I agree with 1-2psi more he'd do a lot better, but he's just running the map that was given him per the directions provided. Even I told him to crank it up to 94%, or maybe 100% down low and 94% up top. I also told him to tell you to clamp the map signal off the shift rather than lowering actual boost.

As far as mods I can't think of two more equal cars. Both auto, stock exhaust, stock 2nd cats, k&n drop in filter, both aftermarket rims, both on about the same octane (v2.02 vs. H+DP).

The two differences were the downpipes, and the tune. Unless I am missing something...

[orientblue3]

I'd love to see one of the tuners compare their products to one another at something like this and if they lose, actually have the balls post the dyno. Is it a coinsidence that the competitor's product always loses in all these posted comparisons? I don't think so. There's still too many variables in the comparisons but the tuner is banking on someone glancing at the data and just going purely off numbers, and saying, "I'll get that tune because it has higher numbers than X." Until someone does a dyno with different tunes on the same car under the same conditions (with the same mods) these dyno's mean nothing. (To me anyways.)

FWIW, I'll be doing a comparision of Procede vs. a custom tune on my car in the coming weeks. It will include dyno's before and after ECU adaptation (should be interesting to see the amount of gains added just from this) for v1.47, v2.02 upgrade, and the custom tune. That is a valid comparison IMHO.

[Terry335]

Originally Posted by orientblue3

I'd love to see one of the tuners compare their products to one another at something like this and if they lose, actually have the balls post the dyno. Is it a coinsidence that the competitor's product always loses in all these posted comparisons? I don't think so. There's still too many variables in the comparisons but the tuner is banking on someone glancing at the data and just going purely off numbers, and saying, "I'll get that tune because it has higher numbers than X." Until someone does a dyno with different tunes on the same car under the same conditions (with the same mods) these dyno's mean nothing. (To me anyways.)

You completely missed the point, this isn't a competition! One tune @ 14psi dynoing higher than another tune @ 13psi is just common sense.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Terry335

I agree with 1-2psi more he'd do a lot better, but he's just running the map that was given him per the directions provided. Even I told him to crank it up to 94%, or maybe 100% down low and 94% up top. I also told him to tell you to clamp the map signal off the shift rather than lowering actual boost.

As far as mods I can't think of two more equal cars. Both auto, stock exhaust, stock 2nd cats, k&n drop in filter, both aftermarket rims, both on about the same octane (v2.02 vs. H+DP).

The two differences were the downpipes, and the tune. Unless I am missing something...

Are you saying that you have no other modifications to your car? Not even a modified airbox? And was your 91oct really 91oct? I just don't recall seeing any independently tested JB customer making anything close to those kind of numbers. If I'm wrong, please point me to the dyno results.

-shiv

[Terry335]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Are you saying that you have no other modifications to your car? Not even a modified airbox? And was your 91oct really 91oct? I just don't recall seeing any independently tested JB making anything close to those kind of numbers. If I'm wrong, please point me to the dyno results.

-shiv

Actually it's funny you mention the airbox, as both Driver72 and I removed the fins from our lids. I doubt it made a difference but we both have it done. We both have the same air filter too.

As far as other mods, I laid it all out up there. I'm also on drag radials @ 28psi tire pressure. Not exactly great for dyno pulls. But I figure my rims are 5# lighter so call it a wash.

I haven't seen a lot of JB2H / 91 octane / catless downpipe dynos done... as far as I know this was the first. And as you know all dynos read differently, but in this case we used the same dyno 20 minutes apart.

[E90 335i]

Great runs, Terry. Don't mind the whiners. Keep up the great work. Just think of all the thank you emails and the hundreds of satisfied non-limp mode customers and then think back to what you've done. You're making 383 whp on a race gas map, 97 octane, stock airbox with no filter, and catless downpipes.

...And your customers don't get limp modes.


Again, way to go and keep up the great work!

[DrewKo]

Terry, nice results! Can you crank it up to 400 whp? How would you do that? Tx. P.S., I want 400 whp!!

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Terry335

Actually it's funny you mention the airbox, as both Driver72 and I removed the fins from our lids. I doubt it made a difference but we both have it done. We both have the same air filter too.

As far as other mods, I laid it all out up there. I'm also on drag radials @ 28psi tire pressure. Not exactly great for dyno pulls. But I figure my rims are 5# lighter so call it a wash.

I haven't seen a lot of JB2H / 91 octane / catless downpipe dynos done... as far as I know this was the first.

I rarely see any type of JB dyno test (R, H, etc,.) from customers. They all seem to be from your car. The only dyno test I recall was when Jonmartin and WalkedU did a comparison of the JB2R and PROcede beta v2.0.2 a few weeks back. And you responded to the results by offering an additional resistor (H pill) to raise boost a bit more. I'm just saying that it would be nice to see some more independent testing that can run out all the stuff that some tuners have been known to do (like running race gas mixes and claiming pump gas, like running more boost than claimed, etc,.) This is one reason i don't post up dyno results of my car every week. Customer results speak a whole lot louder. I think you have even said this a few times yourself.

Shiv

[orientblue3]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

I rarely see any type of JB dyno test (R, H, etc,.) from customers. They all seem to be from your car. The only dyno test I recall was when Jonmartin and WalkedU did a comparison of the JB2R and PROcede beta v2.0.2 a few weeks back. And you responded to the results by offering an additional resistor (H pill) to raise boost a bit more. I'm just saying that it would be nice to see some more independent testing that can run out all the stuff that some tuners have been known to do (like running race gas mixes and claiming pump gas, like running more boost than claimed, etc,.) This is one reason i don't post up dyno results of my car every week. Customer results speak a whole lot louder. I think you have even said this a few times yourself.

Shiv

+1000000000000000000000000000000

[Driver72]

Originally Posted by orientblue3

I'd love to see one of the tuners compare their products to one another at something like this and if they lose, actually have the balls post the dyno. Is it a coinsidence that the competitor's product always loses in all these posted comparisons? I don't think so. There's still too many variables in the comparisons but the tuner is banking on someone glancing at the data and just going purely off numbers, and saying, "I'll get that tune because it has higher numbers than X." Until someone does a dyno with different tunes on the same car under the same conditions (with the same mods) these dyno's mean nothing. (To me anyways.)

FWIW, I'll be doing a comparision of Procede vs. a custom tune on my car in the coming weeks. It will include dyno's before and after ECU adaptation (should be interesting to see the amount of gains added just from this) for v1.47, v2.02 upgrade, and the custom tune. That is a valid comparison IMHO.

Well, I've already did a valid comparison between PROcede v1.47 and v2.02 with adaptation time.
Search for the results, so if you are going to do one with a custom tune, you really only need to show the difference between the v2.0.2 and the custom tune.

This dynos with Terry are NOT a competition.

These dynos were MY doing, not Terry's.

I didn't know of a shop with a dynojet in the SFV, Terry posted a dyno a couple weeks ago from a shop in the SFV. I asked him where it was.
He knew the owner, so I invited him to come along and meet up with me (I also got a discount on the dyno session that way).

Terry was NOT trying to show that his car made more power.

The truth is, the JB2H would probably make similiar power numbers as the v1.47
But the JB2H needs 93 Octane, where the v1.47 needs only 91

The JB2HR would probably make the same power as v2.0.2 with user torque settings at 94%. But again the JB2HR needs 96 Octane where the v2.0.2 with 94% setting could use 91.

Terry's car today was on his top of the line JB2HR set up on 96-97 Octane.
He also was running CATLESS DP's and the K&N drop in filter.

The catless DP's are probably worth 15 rwhp and 20-25 rwtq from what we concluded based on his dynos without the catless DP's.

Take that away and instead of 377 rwhp and 419 rwtq, he'd be at
362 rwhp
395 rwtq

but again that's on 96-97 Octane.

On the comparable 91 Octane, the most you can run with the JB is the JB2
which on this same dyno you'd be looking at
310-312 rwhp

Again, this was NOT a competition.
Terry's car was running more boost, with much higher octane fuel, plus catless DP's

[down4it]

I think when i get on the same dyno on the same day with some JB2HR people we will see some better results, i did 367whp and 441wtq on an SAE corrected dynojet on 94octane on 94% settings... I think at 100% settings and 100 octane with a catless DP map the torque and HP will jump higher by a good amount not to mention that the dyno used here is Corrected:Standard which will make my numbers jump up a bit more over the SAE numbers... Im going for 390-400whp and 460-480wtq... Stay tuned!

[Terry335]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

I rarely see any type of JB dyno test (R, H, etc,.) from customers. They all seem to be from your car. The only dyno test I recall was when Jonmartin and WalkedU did a comparison of the JB2R and PROcede beta v2.0.2 a few weeks back. And you responded to the results by offering an additional resistor (H pill) to raise boost a bit more. I'm just saying that it would be nice to see some more independent testing that can run out all the stuff that some tuners have been known to do (like running race gas mixes and claiming pump gas, like running more boost than claimed, etc,.) This is one reason i don't post up dyno results of my car every week. Customer results speak a whole lot louder. I think you have even said this a few times yourself.

Shiv

To be perfectly honest most of my customers throw on the JB2 and forget about it.

There are maybe 20 R switches in the field, and maybe 5 H pills in testing with 10 more in the mail. If you want to make accusations feel free, but these tests and all tests I do are above the board. I could go on about your dyno testing and the disappearing horsepower but I'd like to think we're beyond that point.

[Mr. 5]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

I rarely see any type of JB dyno test (R, H, etc,.) from customers. They all seem to be from your car. The only dyno test I recall was when Jonmartin and WalkedU did a comparison of the JB2R and PROcede beta v2.0.2 a few weeks back. And you responded to the results by offering an additional resistor (H pill) to raise boost a bit more. I'm just saying that it would be nice to see some more independent testing that can run out all the stuff that some tuners have been known to do (like running race gas mixes and claiming pump gas, like running more boost than claimed, etc,.) This is one reason i don't post up dyno results of my car every week. Customer results speak a whole lot louder. I think you have even said this a few times yourself.

Shiv

I'm dynoing the JB2H on 91 Octane this Saturday at 10:30 am as an independent test.
Anyone is welcome to come.

The address is:

7281 Westminster Blvd.
Westminster, CA 92683

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Terry335

I could go on about your dyno testing and the disappearing horsepower but I'd like to think we're beyond that point.

Actually, we're not. Please explain what you mean by 'disappearing hp'?

[orientblue3]

Originally Posted by Driver72

Well, I've already did a valid comparison between PROcede v1.47 and v2.02 with adaptation time.
Search for the results, so if you are going to do one with a custom tune, you really only need to show the difference between the v2.0.2 and the custom tune.

This dynos with Terry are NOT a competition.

These dynos were MY doing, not Terry's.

I didn't know of a shop with a dynojet in the SFV, Terry posted a dyno a couple weeks ago from a shop in the SFV. I asked him where it was.
He knew the owner, so I invited him to come along and meet up with me (I also got a discount on the dyno session that way).

Terry was NOT trying to show that his car made more power.

The truth is, the JB2H would probably make similiar power numbers as the v1.47
But the JB2H needs 93 Octane, where the v1.47 needs only 91

The JB2HR would probably make the same power as v2.0.2 with user torque settings at 94%. But again the JB2HR needs 96 Octane where the v2.0.2 with 94% setting could use 91.

Terry's car today was on his top of the line JB2HR set up on 96-97 Octane.
He also was running CATLESS DP's and the K&N drop in filter.

The catless DP's are probably worth 15 rwhp and 20-25 rwtq from what we concluded based on his dynos without the catless DP's.

Take that away and instead of 377 rwhp and 419 rwtq, he'd be at
362 rwhp
395 rwtq

but again that's on 96-97 Octane.

On the comparable 91 Octane, the most you can run with the JB is the JB2
which on this same dyno you'd be looking at
310-312 rwhp

Again, this was NOT a competition.
Terry's car was running more boost, with much higher octane fuel, plus catless DP's

Just remember. Both Shiv and Terry are well-trained in the marketing department. As I said previously, they are well aware of the hp/tq battle between each other. Most people just glance through these threads because there's so much info and lets be honest, they end up like 5+ pages long. Most see the numbers and its deceiving, especially when posted by the tuner. I have no problems with you posting your dyno's as I trust them 10000% percent than ones posted by the tuners.

P.S. Thanks for posting your Procede dyno's with ECU adaptations. I never said I was going to post them nor was I doing them because I thought no one else had done them. They serve a much better purpose than either. But thanks anyway.

[orientblue3]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Actually, we're not. Please explain what you mean by 'disappearing hp'?

Please guys.

[Nikolas]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Actually, we're not. Please explain what you mean by 'disappearing hp'?

I think you guys should just race for pinks and be done with it!............J/K

All kidding aside, I think the post actually did start out civil. Shiv you shouldn't be offended as your tune is running very hardy on 91 octane with no real mods. It takes quite a few expensive mods (downpipes) for the Juice box to beat the V2.02 numbers. I'll bet if you add that cost factor into it, it would actually be more expensive to have the JB over Procede.

Nice testing.

[E90 335i]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Actually, we're not. Please explain what you mean by 'disappearing hp'?

Why must you be so antagonistic?

If it makes anybody feel any better, I am going to dyno my car within the next month or two with JB2H, 93 octane, CAI, and catback exhaust (from the stock DP). Then, I am going to slap on a few more mods and dyno again to have delta numbers for VIP Tuning's products.

TERRY:

Please, don't take the bait from Shiv. It surprised me that he said you two are NOT beyond the forum BS.....taking the bait is exactly what he wants to do and then it's Gold Sponsor vs....well, you know what I mean.

[Mr. 5]

Again, anyone can meet me to make sure I don't do anything tricky.

Originally Posted by Mr. 5

I'm dynoing the JB2H on 91 Octane this Saturday at 10:30 am as an independent test.
Anyone is welcome to come.

The address is:

7281 Westminster Blvd.
Westminster, CA 92683

[Driver72]

To make this more clear, on this particular dyno jet that Terry and I used, these are the numbers you could expect with the particular tunes with 6AT tranny and stock air filter, exhaust, etc. etc.

91 Octane

JB2 = 320 rwhp / 330 rwtq
v1.47 = 327 rwhp / 360 rwta
v2.0.2 (at 92% settings) = 340 rwhp / 345 rwtq

93 Octane

JB2 = 325 rwhp / 335 rwtq
JB2H = 338 rwhp / 350 rwtq
v1.47 = 338 rwhp / 368 rwtq
v2.0.2 (at 92% settings) = 345 rwhp / 352 rwtq
v2.0.2 (at 95% settings) = 360 rwhp / 375 rwtq

96+ Octane

JB2R = 355 rwhp / 375 rwtq
JB2HR = 362 rwhp / 390 rwtq
v2.0.2 (at 100% settings) = 375+ rwhp / 410+ rwtq (with torque limit removed)


I am going off memory for Terry's early dynos of the JB2 and JB2H without his DP's. We both agree his catless DP's are worth 15 rwhp and 25 rwtq.
I am also estimating the v2.0.2 at 100% setting on 96+ octane gas.