[TheBigYahi]

I've developed a metal-on-metal creaking when I come to a stop that I've tracked down to either my Thrust Arm bushings or ball joints. After seeing how rusted into the steering knuckle the ball joint is, as well as the low clearance above from the axle, I've been planning on subbing it out.

For all 4 control arms and ball joints I've been quoted by different 2 shops @ 5 hours. A third shop quoted about 1.5 hours for the Thrust Arms and ball joints, but didn't quote me for the front control arm, although they said it would less-than double the labor. All 3 shops are reputable and are well regarded locally.

Is 5 hours totally out of whack? I was surprised to see it from 2 shops. One shop was nice enough to break out the labor into all the different configurations and they're over 2.5 hours just for the ball joints!

Someone tell me if I'm all wet here thinking 5 hours (not counting alignment) is excessive for what amounts to 8 bolts and 4 nuts that are easily accessible.

[twastheglow]

I know you've read my thread regarding Xi thrust arm ball joints...with that being said, I personally do not feel 5 hours is excessive to replace all 4 arms, bushings, and ball joints. I would go as far as to say I wouldn't be surprised if it took them longer than 5 to be honest.

[TheBigYahi]

Yeah I remembered that after I posted. I guess my hope would be that a full service shop would be better equipped than guys like us.

[twastheglow]

Originally Posted by TheBigYahi

Yeah I remembered that after I posted. I guess my hope would be that a full service shop would be better equipped than guys like us.

Having done this and struggled entirely on the ball joint alone, I think you have 3 possible scenarios:

1) take it to a shop and have them worry about it/deal with it and have a lighter wallet afterwards.

2) do it yourself using hand tools after reading back through my thread explaining exactly what I did to remove it. I'm also available to PM, text, or talk on the phone to walk you through it or help you out.

3) find a buddy with air tools and disassemble it there and use an air chisel to punch it out.

If it helps your decision at all, the next time this job comes up (if and/or when I get that "clunk" on the other side of the car), I will again be doing it myself. Whether I have air tools by then or still only have my lowly hand tools to use, I'd still rather take the DIY route. But that's just me.

Whatever you decide, good luck and keep us posted.

[matteblue3er]

Thrust arms are just bolted in, unless you bought only the bushing and the shop needs to remove and press in the new bushing.

It's typically 1 hour to swap the thrust arms out for new ones.

The outer ball joint for the thrust arm can take anywhere from 1/2 hour to 2 hours. Depends on if they are seized and how badly they are seized.

Wishbone arm is bolted in.....1 hour.

All of these times are for both sides.

[TheBigYahi]

Thanks for the info.

To itemize, it looks like they're quoting 1.3 hours per ball joint, 0.75 hours per thrust arm (complete assembly), and 0.4 hours per wishbone. Sounds high, but not totally unreasonable.

As much as I want to be able to DIY everything on this car I think I'll have to bite the bullet on this one. Since this is my DD and I've got 2 kids and a wife that travels for work I can't afford the potential downtime. Sucks.

I think what I'm going to do is to bring it to the place that had the lowest labor estimate to get my state inspection and some tires mounted next month and let them give me a detailed estimate. When I talked to them they were willing to work with me on part selection (Lemforder vs. OEM vs. whoever) and I have several coworkers that swear by them.

[ajsalida]

Having just removed the tension struts and pressed in new poly bushings myself, I can confirm how hard the TS ball joints are to get free. Took forever and a standard tool won't fit. Ended up using a steering wheel puller hack to get the arms off the ball joints. I was going to replace the control arms also, but that ball joint configuration is even stranger and more difficult to get to, so I need a better tool. I did not replace the TS ball joint however, not clear how bad that would be. It's held in by 2 big torx screws. The ball joints on the CA's are part of the CA of course.

A shop that has all the right tools (and experience using them) should be able to knock out your job in less than 5 hrs. assuming no unexpected difficulties. However if something is stuck/frozen/rusted it could easily take that long. So bid out at 5 hrs average is not too outrageous.

[ucdbiendog]

Originally Posted by twastheglow

Having done this and struggled entirely on the ball joint alone, I think you have 3 possible scenarios:

1) take it to a shop and have them worry about it/deal with it and have a lighter wallet afterwards.

2) do it yourself using hand tools after reading back through my thread explaining exactly what I did to remove it. I'm also available to PM, text, or talk on the phone to walk you through it or help you out.

3) find a buddy with air tools and disassemble it there and use an air chisel to punch it out.

If it helps your decision at all, the next time this job comes up (if and/or when I get that "clunk" on the other side of the car), I will again be doing it myself. Whether I have air tools by then or still only have my lowly hand tools to use, I'd still rather take the DIY route. But that's just me.

Whatever you decide, good luck and keep us posted.

#3:
http://www.amazon.com/Lisle-LIS41500.../dp/B000TQ4YX4

That guy made all the difference in the world. damaged the thin collar on the ball joint, but that wasnt a concern for me as i was replacing the whole arm, ball joint included.

[ajsalida]

Originally Posted by ucdbiendog

#3:
http://www.amazon.com/Lisle-LIS41500.../dp/B000TQ4YX4

That guy made all the difference in the world. damaged the thin collar on the ball joint, but that wasnt a concern for me as i was replacing the whole arm, ball joint included.

I have a pickle fork, the kind that you hit with a regular hammer, and you're right, it is clear it would have damaged the TS ball joint. So I used a puller. If that is not a concern and you're installing new ones then have at it. I've had that tool for a long time, but there are some jobs even it won't break free. My old Jeep for example. That's when you need a torch, air hammer, or something else. And lots of profanity.

I did not use it to break the CA ball joint free, to install the new CA's because I may need to remove everything again to install a new axle and I only want to do the CA's once. Hoping the TS joint pops off easier the second time as it now looks like I will need to remove the axle.

[matteblue3er]

All you need is a quick whack with a dead blow hammer, right at the ball joint location for the control arm.

The shock should free the tapered joint pretty easily if you are using a heavy weight dead blow.

Pickle forks normally damage the ball joint. If you're already replacing it, it's not an issue but you really don't need them in the first place.

[TheBigYahi]

Is that generic advice, or from your experience on your xi? twastheglow has a long thread detailing how he was having problems with it being rusted in.

[matteblue3er]

Originally Posted by TheBigYahi

Is that generic advice, or from your experience on your xi? twastheglow has a long thread detailing how he was having problems with it being rusted in.

Personal experience. Although I don't do the wrench work on customer cars, I do all the work on my car and know this specific chassis very well.

I'm an engineer at a shop that specializes in BMWs and Mini Coopers.

To clarify, this is to free the control arm from the ball joint.....not to remove the ball joint from the knuckle. On xi models, this ball joint is bolted/pressed into the knuckle. It can be very stubborn. Most of the time, we need to use an air hammer to remove the ball joint from the knuckle.

[PhaseP]

He is talking about freeing the arm from ball joint, not removing/pressing the ball joint out of its place.
I also agree a big heavy hammer is the way to free control arms from ball joint, hit at the place ball joint goes through. I have seen Ed China from Wheeler Dealers always using two hammers simultaneously hitting at opposite sides. On Bavarian Auto DIY videos same thing, hits with a big hammer on where the joint goes through to free them loose.
I removed the whole spindle to replace the differential seal once. Loosened all ball joints with only hammer. Some took a lot of hits though, mostly because I am not that experienced as a pro, and also car was not on lift, not enough room to swing the hammer as one would like lying on the floor.
And some of them needed prying with a bar to apply separation force while hitting with the hammer.

A relavant video:

[twastheglow]

Originally Posted by matteblue3er

Personal experience. Although I don't do the wrench work on customer cars, I do all the work on my car and know this specific chassis very well.

I'm an engineer at a shop that specializes in BMWs and Mini Coopers.

To clarify, this is to free the control arm from the ball joint.....not to remove the ball joint from the knuckle. On xi models, this ball joint is bolted/pressed into the knuckle. It can be very stubborn. Most of the time, we need to use an air hammer to remove the ball joint from the knuckle.

Originally Posted by PhaseP

He is talking about freeing the arm from ball joint, not removing/pressing the ball joint out of its place.
I also agree a big heavy hammer is the way to free control arms from ball joint, hit at the place ball joint goes through. I have seen Ed China from Wheeler Dealers always using two hammers simultaneously hitting at opposite sides. On Bavarian Auto DIY videos same thing, hits with a big hammer on where the joint goes through to free them loose.
I removed the whole spindle to replace the differential seal once. Loosened all ball joints with only hammer. Some took a lot of hits though, mostly because I am not that experienced as a pro, and also car was not on lift, not enough room to swing the hammer as one would like lying on the floor.
And some of them needed prying with a bar to apply separation force while hitting with the hammer.

A relavant video:

Incorrect. TheBigYahi is indeed speaking of removing the thrust arm ball joint from an Xi knuckle/spindle. Removing the arm from the ball joint itself is a cake walk in comparison.