[Digitalize]

Just had my oil done but next time I might do it myself and pull the sump off and see whats inside.

[Jimmy-M2OG]

Originally Posted by Aragorn30d

Not entirely no.

But regular changes will get rid of some of it, as clean hot oil will dissolve some of the gunk away. You can also get a special oil flush products which help shift the crap.

When by brother bought his 320d, it was on 180k with a slightly dubious service history. So we did 3 oil changes back to back with a few hundred miles between them, to clean out as much of it as possible. The first oil change the new oil went black immediately, but by the third change it was much better.

So if your dubious of the servicing the previous owner/s has carried out do you think it would be wise to carry out a series of regular oil changed and a flush? Or would a flush then regular oil changes at say every 5k suffice?

I hope to hell my engines not like that inside I take it once it's in that state nothing bar a full strip down will help ?

[old grey steve]

Originally Posted by Aragorn30d

The chains on these engines do give me the willies. At least a belt gets inspected and changed semi-regularly. The chains get ignored until they explode.

To be fair all you can do as the owner is to ensure the oils clean and good for the cars health, the issue with chains and tensioners comes about for many reasons. If you take a car in for an oil service at some places you get just that. They'll drop the oil change the filter kick it out...simple as. If the garage isn't used to the breed doesn't see enough of the particular car to understand whether there's something going on all they are going to do is simply change the oil move it on. Will they know/understand if there's a chain issue? Will they be able to say that the tensioner may well be failing to fulfil its role in life?

As yyou know the tensioner is there to apply force to ensure the chain is at the right tension, clean oil will assist in ensuring this takes place

All you can do is to at least ensure clean oil and serviceable oil is being used(and by serviceable we get into another issue where say BMW due to CBS can allow you say 20k and you can do say 20K in 2+ years)so question is do you want oil in your car for 2 years?

I don't and I tell all my customers this simple fact. Thing is at the end of the day its a customers choice but for a small outlay you offer yourself longterm a better longterm solution to potentual issues.

Originally Posted by Ess

Wow. I already do an annual service but may have to consider more often after seeing this. Thanks for the insight as always Steve!

Originally Posted by AzRiz

Daaaaaamn! That is horrific!

Goes to show that the manufacturers definitely do NOT care about engine health in the long run (or any aspect of the car, for that matter, with 'sealed for life' transmission claims) and have greatly reduced service frequency to look like better value and also increase profits as cars will enter the workshop less often but with a longer list of jobs to do.

Pathetic ethic...

Manufacturers tread a fine line Az, think logically they are robbing their service departments potentual revenue, they aren't seeing the cars through their workshops for oil services now as reguarly as they could of done, but they set their stall out many years ago using the CBS ethos. It was/is IMO set out to ultimatly sell cars, look at BMW's look at how many are on our roads many are in fleet hands look at the costs if a car can be kept on the road for longer with less time in the workshop it'll earn its keep. That's how they've set their stall out.

Thing is in later life I strongly suspect these cars may well suffer purely down to the service regime. I think manufacturers care, Ithink the engineers for instance have to work within certain parameters including costs, warranty etc. I believe if an engineeer had full control they'd peg certain things back as things last longer with care nad maintenence.

Due to costs and other things dare I say it we are left with what we have now. Extended service intervals to aid the bean counters to reduce ceertain costs, when the cars finished its tour of duty say as a fleet car its sold on and in later life under the 2nd or 3rd owners custody these issues will come to light

Originally Posted by PJJD

Holy crap!

As the guys above have said, oil should be changed at least every 10k miles, or once a year, depending which comes first. Personally I change mine every 7/8000 miles. For the price of a drum of oil and an oil filter, it doesn't make sense not to change it regularly.

Steve, with regard to the timing chain, do you think the problems are caused by the oil not being changed regularly enough? Or is it just a fault with the chain itself?

I feel oil on these cars especially turbocharged cars should be changed as I've stated at least yearly and or 10k if you can change twice a year once going into winter once coming out of winter in to spring for the simple reasoning that the engines will toa degree expierience different tempretures and conditions. Its just my logic this winter/summer change but I'd rather do this than leave it to chance.

Timing chains need oil clean oil to stand a chance, we've seen a fair frew tensioners fail or be just about on their last legs when inspected they are weak or have clear carbon deposits visible.

Originally Posted by Ao1

From what I have heard condition based servicing is all about keeping costs to the minimum for fleet managers, who only want to spend the least amount possible and don’t care what happens after three years because the car is sold on.

Steve, sorry if this is a silly question buy why does engine oil get so dirty and congealed in comparison to gear box oil that is changed far less frequently, if at all?

CBS Richard as I've said was a tool invented by BMW, for a reason. Its bought new people to BMW, fleet people who from say 2004/5 were able to offer BMW's to clients due to servicing costs becoming more acceptable, which effects costs when the car was being underwirtten for values, depreciation and running costs, people who once had Fords, Vauxhalls were being offered BMW, they could have one on their drive and they took the bate, BMW's sales therefore took off big time which is exactly what they wanted to happen.

Its a good question re engine and gearbox oil you ask. In words and space trust me I'll run out of words, but their enviroments are different needless to say on the gearbox front its polite for me to say that BMW sealed for life policy doesn't stack up, Mercedes for instance had the autobox service in their schedule likewise VAG do too. BMW gearbox's we know leak if it was sealed for life ask yourself a question... BMW can get the sump's and the mechatronc plugs in if required the same day and they have the transmission fluid in stock..... therefore if it was a lifetime product in theory you wouldn't need these items would you!

Originally Posted by Aragorn30d

Because of the combustion process. A portion of the combustion gas blows past the piston rings and down into the crankcase, where it mixes into the engine oil.

True. Hence things like breathers need to be changed to aid longevity(though later cars like the later diesels have a different breatehr type approach as they've lost the vortex style to intergrate the breather in to the rocker assembly).

Oil of course isn't only a lubricant, its a coolant as well used to keep things in check and as a ressult goes through a hell of a lot. For instance on oil colour the viscosity of the oil can have a say in the level of discoloration of the oil. Higher viscosity oil can reduce the discoloration seen (got this gem from a visiting oil technition)-though the converstation was boring.

Oil for instance reacts with chemicals in things like bearing housings, which have corrosion inhibitors or preservitives built in to them to ensure their longevity, oil passing through these components need to be kept in check to be clean(clean doesn't mean like new in terms of appearence)and as free from contamination as possible, components can be damaged by dirt and of all things water passing through them due to the way oil reacts.

Oddly enough oil can go black early due to internal component and housing manufacturing which goes right back to production!

Originally Posted by Ao1

But isn’t the amount of pressure blow back abnormal to cause the extent of contamination that Steve has been showing us? Its effecting even low mileage cars. How can this be normal?

difficult one to say 100% but everything has a part to play in what we see

Originally Posted by Ao1

Also is an oil change going to get rid of all that sludge build up?

No long term it won't the sludge build up goes back to how the cars used, oil changes and some other factors.

Sludge say on many BMW cars could be centred on the crank case vent design! Also it can be centred around operating tempretures here to a degree when oil cools down after getting hot you will get condensation this pays havoc longterm. So again regular oil changes will help but won't 100% prevent issues like sludge but you can contain them make them managable by latering your maintenence schedule to acomodate an extra oil change

Oil has anti-oxidants built in to its chemical state to reduce oxidation (oil molecules v oxygen) which is designed to stop the oil breaking down, ideally dirt should be broken down and kept in the oil film therefore stopping dirt from actually attacking metal interal components if this happens internally the engine will wear less if it doesn't we get ineral engine damage. You've got anti foming agents too which keep the film strong stop it breaking down and dirt attacking components.

Oil sludge to my mind occurs when all these protective elements are being stretched too far and put simply the oils seen as breaking down, oil basically starts to form in to a gel or polymer type state and thats the sludge we see and trust me we see loads.

Originally Posted by Aragorn30d

Its entirely normal. Engine oil on a diesel goes black within a few thousand miles (or less!) due to the contamination from the combustion process. The oils designed to contain that contamination, but when it builds up to high levels, it begins to form deposits.

If the oils changed regularly, theres no chance for it to build up. But when intervals are stretched out to 20k+ it all starts getting a bit shit. Now ofcourse, the engine in question might well have missed a service or something at some point.

The other issue is garages sometimes use the wrong oil. Stick a low quality oil in there and try to run it for 20k and it'll wreak all sorts of havok. The same low quality oil on a sensible interval however would likely be completely fine.

My other car is a 2000 model 1.8T A4, and those were some of the first VAG models to get the long-life servicing. Many have died due to oil starvation, because the combination of combination of a turbocharger giving the oil a hard time, long life intervals, and garages often using the old spec oil, resulted in the oil turning to sludge and blocking the pickup. Fairly regularly you'd see posts on the forum about people getting the oil pressure warning light and wondering what to do to fix it, usually too late at that point.

We seen plenty of 05 plated Audi's and VW's with issues wear and all that wear happned due to the issues you've described

Originally Posted by chrissyw

So basically anybody who goes by the standard BMW 20,000 mile service schedule has an engine like that?

Shocking really.

You can't really say that. You can say with long intervals it isn't helping, but 2 cars doing 20k per year can react differently internally, if one of the cars punds the motorways and one does short journeys and both have their oils changed say in 20k would we see different results? I think to a degree we would, remember oil condition to a degree can be picked up by the car and the car can flag up a service if it feels the need due to oil quality, but that's a sensor, thing is the oils in the car too long

Originally Posted by AWSAWS

Detergents in fuel will clean anywhere the fuel goes. Fuel rails, injectors, cylinders and piston heads. I assume the detergent is burnt so after that stage it does nothing.

That black sludge is scary. My brother's M5 had to be opened up to find an engine vibration and the guys said it also had lots of sludge. It has been serviced when needed and even serviced in between.

I might start doing oil changes myself now in between.

Its all you can do

Originally Posted by Digitalize

Just had my oil done but next time I might do it myself and pull the sump off and see whats inside.

If you've got a 320D and its a later one you might have to drop the subframe to get the sump off

Just a note on carbon it happens especially on turbo charged engine due to carbon build up on the bearings, where they are alolowed to run down unlubricated as you effectivilly siwtch the car off shutting the oil pump down and oil supply, the oils not allowed to flow and cool down, remember they are red hot ideally you need to allow the car to idle down after a run this will allow oil to flow as intended allowing the bearing the oil it needs to aid the cooling process and reduce the carbonisation issue that kills turbo's galore usually when inspected the oil feed return pipes are also coked up like a blocked artery.

Simple fact to all this CHANGE YOUR OIL REGUARLY its all you can do but loingterm it might be your best friend

[decy1000]

that was a fantastic post very informative and thank you for posting i'm state side california here and i'm currently doing a complete rebuild on a 2010 335d m57n2 engine that i bought recently it was driven in to water and it bent and twisted a conrod with no other obvious damage that i can see,just wondering does anybody have a part number for exhaust valve guides and inlet valve guides i cant seem to find a number over here and bmw say they don't sell them any more thanks guys.

[old grey steve]

Originally Posted by decy1000

that was a fantastic post very informative and thank you for posting i'm state side california here and i'm currently doing a complete rebuild on a 2010 335d m57n2 engine that i bought recently it was driven in to water and it bent and twisted a conrod with no other obvious damage that i can see,just wondering does anybody have a part number for exhaust valve guides and inlet valve guides i cant seem to find a number over here and bmw say they don't sell them any more thanks guys.

No worries

[Rialas]

Great post Steve. Thanks.
I've sent you a pm.