[synclastica_86]

Originally Posted by Z K

If you're doing lightweight FWD sports cars, you have to look at the Honda Civic Type R and the Integra Type R. Very fast on smaller and tighter courses. Even the older Civic SiR (Si in America) is very fast. I used to track my Civic Si 16 years ago. Great car and tons of fun. Keeping the revs up high and hearing the engine scream to 8000rpm is always a treat.

For the new FWD cars, the Fiesta ST is insanely fun as well. Others such as the Golf GTI are getting rather big and the power is nice but the handling suffers because of the size and weight.

But in the same vein, learn to drive a lightweight RWD car fast and it requires much more skill and is rewarding when you get it right. The Miata MX-5 is a great example of a great small RWD car. Used, they are pretty inexpensive. You'll find well set up ones out running most cars on track. The new one is very good as well. Others to consider is the BRZ and Toyota GT86.

I love the Honda high reving engine and the way that their cam geometry changes at higher rpms. Unfortunately, their reps are very bad with Hong Kong law enforcements. It's almost impossible to get through a police check point without getting pulled over for a "random" vehicle check. And if they find any kind of illegal modifications, event a tint, off to the impound lot it is.

MX-5 are great, but I think the S2000's are more capable cars in terms of performance. The GT86 and BRZ are also a bit too large and a bit under powered in stock trim.

[PopsnBurbles]

Is it the fact that the cars are FWD that you love? Or is it that it's pure coincidence that these cars are FWD?

Are you sure that you're just not in love with the cars' weight and size? The 435i is a huge tub of lard compared to the 206 GTi.

I feel similarly when comparing my brother's E30 325is versus my E82 135is. I'm in love with the E30's 500lbs. weight "disadvantage" + NA motor + being a lot narrower + better feedback. Regardless, I still love my 1er a lot more. This has seriously made me consider getting an underpowered, light, and badass old RWD car (AE86 or a Lotus Elan).

My point here is try a similarly powered and weighted RWD car and see if the FWD behavior is to your liking. I'm no FWD expert but I've felt the terrifying understeer and annoying torque steering. Really, the feeling of being pulled as opposed to being pushed is something I dislike too.

[Z K]

Originally Posted by synclastica_86

I love the Honda high reving engine and the way that their cam geometry changes at higher rpms. Unfortunately, their reps are very bad with Hong Kong law enforcements. It's almost impossible to get through a police check point without getting pulled over for a "random" vehicle check. And if they find any kind of illegal modifications, event a tint, off to the impound lot it is.

MX-5 are great, but I think the S2000's are more capable cars in terms of performance. The GT86 and BRZ are also a bit too large and a bit under powered in stock trim.

Interesting that Honda still has that "racer" reputation in HK. Here in the USA, they are pretty rare now and hard to find in decent condition. Not many people modifying them as much now either. That was 25-15 years ago. There's many faster and easier to modify cars than the Hondas now.

No doubt the S2000 is more capable cars to modify but then you are moving into "larger" cars. The S2000 is much larger than the MX5 and it drives like it. S2000 is also much faster than the GT86/BRZ on track - they are similarly sized. Modified S2000s typically dominate everything on track locally. I don't know about HK, but you can get a MX5 from the 1990s for $1-5k... A S2000 still runs $20k for a decent condition one with good condition ones going up to $30k used.

[bd307]

Oh ya those s2k's on tracks eat you up alive all day and every day

[derryck]

Originally Posted by Outlaw M3

I think the whole "hot hatch" phenomenon is pretty cool. I've driven the Fiat Abarth 500 and it's a blast.

The Ford Focus RS is another really bad@$$ vehicle with 350hp/350tq?!?!

Of course there's more to choose from in Europe than here in the US, you lucky bastards

The Focus RS is also AWD so not sure how relevant it is to the FWD vehicle thread as they are quite different. FWD cars can still be a lot of fun but torque steer is hard to avoid when making decent power. I have owned several high power FWD cars (most recently a Focus ST) and they have come a long way but torque steer is still torque steer and they will never match a RWD car.

[Gooner5643]

Totally agree with the OP. I've got an 06 civic si daily with full bolt ons, upgraded pads, suspension mods, and sticky tires. Thing is a blast to drive and even my friend with a gtr can't outrun me down technical back roads. 8600rpm, lift off throttle oversteer and a stock shifter BMW could learn a thing or two about. Fwd will always have a place in my heart. That being said I still love my m3 much more for obvious reasons.

[Robin_NL]

>25 years ago I was driving around in a new 205GTI 1.9 catless. Great little car. I also drove a 309 GTI 170BHP at that time. And a Clio Williams('93) of a friend of mine. I had some Golfs as well Mk1/2/3/4/5...

And those Frenchies were FUN! Lift throttle oversteer and wheelspin everywhere fun....more or less. But is was fun with the limited power and fwd we had... What did we know ?

I didn't know 'anything' about RWD back then. Yes they were parte of something magical like Mercedes, Porsche, BMW and Ferrari. And rallycars and F1.



So I now see a thread like this I think: How can a sexdoll or a tranny be fun at all.

Cheers
Robin

[Obioban]

I think you need to separate small from FWD. Smaller cars are absolutely more fun to drive hard than big cars. But, there's small FWD cars out there, too-- Miata, e30s, e36s, Z3s, BRZs/FRSs etc. Then you can have your small car fun, plus RWD manual fun (and sometimes can sneak an I6 in there). Modern BMWs, excluding the 2 series, are too large to really have fun driving hard on a back road (and drive larger than they are, seemingly).

... albeit small rwd cars do tend to be more expensive than FWD ones.

[fcman]

Originally Posted by Z K

Interesting that Honda still has that "racer" reputation in HK. Here in the USA, they are pretty rare now and hard to find in decent condition. Not many people modifying them as much now either. That was 25-15 years ago. There's many faster and easier to modify cars than the Hondas now.

No doubt the S2000 is more capable cars to modify but then you are moving into "larger" cars. The S2000 is much larger than the MX5 and it drives like it. S2000 is also much faster than the GT86/BRZ on track - they are similarly sized. Modified S2000s typically dominate everything on track locally. I don't know about HK, but you can get a MX5 from the 1990s for $1-5k... A S2000 still runs $20k for a decent condition one with good condition ones going up to $30k used.

I had an S2000 before my 135i. Let me tell you that mods for BMWs are dirt cheap compared to the S2000, if you want quality parts.
Want a decent exhaust mani? $1200-2000
Want an intake that won't lose power? $1500-4500

[synclastica_86]

Originally Posted by Obioban

I think you need to separate small from FWD. Smaller cars are absolutely more fun to drive hard than big cars. But, there's small FWD cars out there, too-- Miata, e30s, e36s, Z3s, BRZs/FRSs etc. Then you can have your small car fun, plus RWD manual fun (and sometimes can sneak an I6 in there). Modern BMWs, excluding the 2 series, are too large to really have fun driving hard on a back road (and drive larger than they are, seemingly).

... albeit small rwd cars do tend to be more expensive than FWD ones.

I guess you are right, but small car aren't as common nowadays. The Miata and e30 yes, but the e36 and BRZ aren't really that small in my book. I would love an e30, but once a car hits a certain age maintenance becomes an issue. Also, they become more valuable both in terms of money and sentiment. Even if I get my hands on an e30, I'd drive it with a lot more care instead of thrashing it around. Having to stay well clear of its performance limit defeats my original purpose of getting the car here.

[rainfall]

The 2015 VW GTI is a freakin' blast to drive, especially the manual. FWD isn't necessarily bad.

[Bbb34]

Originally Posted by rainfall

The 2015 VW GTI is a freakin' blast to drive, especially the manual. FWD isn't necessarily bad.

Far from bad, but given same size, same power... etc... RWD is likely to be more fun to drive. Too much of a generic statement I know, but you get the idea.

Originally Posted by Robin_NL

And those Frenchies were FUN! Lift throttle oversteer and wheelspin everywhere fun....more or less. But is was fun with the limited power and fwd we had... What did we know ?

So true, is it wrong to admit remember looking up to Peugeot 205 GTI and Renault 5 GT Turbo while driving around in (purchased used) Fiat Ritmo (all FWD) and think "one day when they hit used market maybe"

[JNoSol]

FWD has ONE advantage over RWD = low cost (parts/time/maint).

Other than that, relying on the front to brake/turn/accelerate put too much stress on 2 of the 4 tires.

Nissan tried to disprove this philosophy with the FWD Nissan GT-R LM Nismo, boy was it a huge failure. They had to pull the project. Better luck next time...


If both cars weigh and balance the same, RWD wins every single time. What you meant is you're starting to like "lighter" and "short wheelbase" cars. Drive any small/light RWD, like a Miata or BRZ, and you'll change your mind.

[Red Bread]

Fwd has another advantage, it actually exists. There are exactly zero rwd five-door cars with three pedals in the US. The F30 is currently the smallest manual, rwd sedan we can have. Adding fwd based awd opens things up to the Golf R and Focus RS, but both default to largely fwd without slip.

I've said it before, but the first company to bring back an E36/E46 rwd sedan or wagon with a manual will make a (pretty small) fortune and satisfy a number of enthusiasts.

[N55_Mike]

I personally stay away from FWD cause of torque steer, but a week ago I bought a brand new GTI Autobahn/Performance Pack as a daily beater.... WOW... Handles like a dream, hauls ass, and no torque steer.

[Z K]

Originally Posted by N55_Mike

I personally stay away from FWD cause of torque steer, but a week ago I bought a brand new GTI Autobahn/Performance Pack as a daily beater.... WOW... Handles like a dream, hauls ass, and no torque steer.

If you plan on getting a tune, you'll experience a whole other world. 320hp and nearly 400 torque on tap for all of $500.

I have a tuned GLI Autobahn as my daily driver (wanted a sedan) and it's been great.

[N55_Mike]

Yup, that's exactly what I'm gonna do. I have a intake and downpipe now, next up is a tune, turbo muffler delete and BOV. Should be a fun daily. I had the Jetta, my lease ended so I got the GTI. Always wanted a hot hatch

Which tune do you have? I'm thinking Eurodyne

Originally Posted by Z K

If you plan on getting a tune, you'll experience a whole other world. 320hp and nearly 400 torque on tap for all of $500.

I have a tuned GLI Autobahn as my daily driver (wanted a sedan) and it's been great.

[Z K]

Originally Posted by N55_Mike

Yup, that's exactly what I'm gonna do. I have a intake and downpipe now, next up is a tune, turbo muffler delete and BOV. Should be a fun daily. I had the Jetta, my lease ended so I got the GTI. Always wanted a hot hatch

Which tune do you have? I'm thinking Eurodyne

I got a GIAC tune. They were great at working with me. APR didn't have a tune for my ECU box code (code was too new). They asked me to mail in my ECU... during which I couldn't use my car for a week. I went to GIAC and they created a tune for me within a few hours and the dealer flashed it.

I previously had a REVO tune and I didn't like it. It felt powerful but the power came on like a on/off switch. GIAC's tune is very smooth and refined for regular driving.