[Sedoy]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

I used to rail against Priuses and the lack of actual environmental upside, but even the first gen are largely still on the road, something that certainly can't be said of most cars from that era, much less BMW's.

Yep, I read somewhere that Prius got one of the most reliable drivetrain system on the market, also saw few for sale in NY area with 500K on the odometer.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by David70

So if you are comparing a Bolt to a BMW 320 things look positive financially but if you compare the Bolt to a loaded Civic they don't? My main draw to the 3 series is the handling, RWD platform, and with other engines, the engine so this isn't a car I would compare to the Bolt. The only thing I see similar to each of them is the size.

Ownership costs for 5 years for a 320i - $45,583
Ownership costs for 5 years for a Civic sedan EX (loaded but without leather)- $26,226
Ownership costs for 5 years for a Leaf SL (think loaded to compare to loaded Civic) - $40,079 - They didn't take the tax credit which I think you still get so with $7500 off - $32,579

I used the Leaf as it is the closest car that I know of, also expect similar costs.

If just going off financials I don't see it working out. I did this pretty quickly is there something fundamentally wrong with it?

http://www.edmunds.com/bmw/3-series/...3/cost-to-own/
http://www.edmunds.com/honda/civic/2...7/cost-to-own/
http://www.edmunds.com/nissan/leaf/2...4/cost-to-own/

Keep the cars 10 years and the numbers probably change. Your numbers have depreciation in them. My numbers for my needs and keeping the car a minimum of 200,000 miles is a different equation. A car depreciates most over the first 5 years and less over the next 5 years. If I'm snowed in this weekend I'll run some numbers and see what I come up with.

[Fundguy1]

Originally Posted by Blipit_

I have been trying to figure out why the media doesn't cover why oil prices are where they are. Saudis are playing games. They are shutting down all the medium and small oil producers. Once economies recover and demand increases(which it will), gas prices are going to be enormous. This will happen under the next President, so they will get blamed for it.

Because the media is liberal. Fox covers it bUT anything they say which is 90% true is branded false by the other media that is 90% fake. It's a bias. I only can confirm its true because I talk to the wall street guys involved in this stuff. If hillary is elected the prices will soar. If it's a Republican they will reopen the federal and they will stay low. Better it will hurt the Arabs and Russians too.

[Fundguy1]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

But most cars are crushed before they get to 120k, much less 200k miles, so what's the point of talking about battery life when most cars last seven years and are disposed of.

You can argue that the heavy metals and Chinese manufacturing plus charging on natural gas or coal is worse than an ICE, but no point in arguing about extra long term life when most ICE's don't last any longer than an initial battery would.

I used to rail against Priuses and the lack of actual environmental upside, but even the first gen are largely still on the road, something that certainly can't be said of most cars from that era, much less BMW's.

My 335i has 226k, and I'm just now upgrading the turbos etc to make 700hp. Plan on it going to 400k.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

My 335i has 226k, and I'm just now upgrading the turbos etc to make 700hp. Plan on it going to 400k.

Of course it's possible, but certainly the exception.

My wife's X1 35i was totaled with 27k miles.

My M Coupe got an AA turbo at 150k miles.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

Because the media is liberal. Fox covers it bUT anything they say which is 90% true is branded false by the other media that is 90% fake. It's a bias. I only can confirm its true because I talk to the wall street guys involved in this stuff. If hillary is elected the prices will soar. If it's a Republican they will reopen the federal and they will stay low. Better it will hurt the Arabs and Russians too.

So funny you should mention Fox News. I'm an avid consumer of Fox News. But the 2012 election came about, and Fox's reporting on O'Bama's shenanigans to discredit him (I was all for it trust me). Until Fox came to the Volt. They stated the Volt was the "Obama Car", that the Obama administration forced GM to build the Volt as part of the bailout deal. Fox tried to paint the Volt as a complete piece of shit and a waste of tax payer money spent by GM to design and build it; this was just after the news that Volts were catching afire. And funny how Fox never reported that the electric vehicle tax credit program was a Bush 43 policy initiative. Fox shut up about the Volt after news broke that Bush 41 bought a Volt for one of his grand kids...

So cars and the car industry is something I'm well studied in. Fox's reporting on the Volt was nothing farther from the truth than there an ocean on the moon. Fox's reporting was complete utter BS. One Volt caught fire. It was a NHSTA safety crash test vehicle, subject to multiple safety tests including the side pole intrusion test an then the roll over test for containment of leaking fluids. The same chassis was used for both tests. The crashed Volt was then stored in the crashed car lot, improperly stored per GM's instructions to disconnect and remove the battery. The battery's temperature control electronics were compromised in the crash test. The battery caught fire 2 weeks after the tests were concluded. Fox painted a picture that Volts were catching on fire in people's garages while charging and after crashes. None of it was true. Car and Driver even made a joke of it showing how far you could walk from Detroit in two weeks time.

Secondly, the Volt started the initial design phases sometime in 2004, while Obama was still a Senator. GM announced production of the Volt in 2007, far before the economic crash of 2008 and the resultant GM bailout. So again Fox was full of bullshit.

All of this Fox News BS led me to actually go test drive the Volt. I had only heard good things about the car (mostly from owners I questioned) and wanted to see for myself how much a POS it was. I never had interest in it before because it didn't fit my commuting profile. That test drive was my first electric car experience. As other people have said, it is an ideology-altering experience. And the Volt's design and build quality was excellent. And it drove as good as the magazines report it does. I was very impressed with it. I was as impressed with the Volt as I was back in 1973 when my Dad bought a GE Electrak electric garden tractor (still in my possession) that I used for over a decade cutting our 2-acre yard.

My first impression of the Volt is why EV's are now under consideration as my next vehicle and why I've been running financial scenarios on EVs since 2012 as a replacement for my E90. And Fox's reporting of the Volt has led me to understand it is as agenda-driven and untruthful as CNN et.al. (but the info babes are worth looking at).

[David70]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Keep the cars 10 years and the numbers probably change. Your numbers have depreciation in them. My numbers for my needs and keeping the car a minimum of 200,000 miles is a different equation. A car depreciates most over the first 5 years and less over the next 5 years. If I'm snowed in this weekend I'll run some numbers and see what I come up with.

Numbers should have depreciation in them it is one of the major expenses to owning a car. I thought you said you said you were only charging it once a week. Won't this take you 20 years to get to 200k miles? Serious doubts anyone will buy a new Bolt and keep it for 20 years. I also think you will be looking at severely reduced range or will have replaced the batteries at a pretty high price. Maybe a major repair on a Civic also but not sure and not sure if it would equal the batteries.

Also, they estimate the depreciation at year 5 as $2240 on the Leaf and $1229 on the Civic, it is going to take a number of years before they have equal depreciation.

In the above the Leaf is over $6k behind at year 5 compared to a Civic and the Leaf is saving about $500 a year on fuel.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by David70

Numbers should have depreciation in them it is one of the major expenses to owning a car. I thought you said you said you were only charging it once a week. Won't this take you 20 years to get to 200k miles? Serious doubts anyone will buy a new Bolt and keep it for 20 years. I also think you will be looking at severely reduced range or will have replaced the batteries at a pretty high price. Maybe a major repair on a Civic also but not sure and not sure if it would equal the batteries.

Also, they estimate the depreciation at year 5 as $2240 on the Leaf and $1229 on the Civic, it is going to take a number of years before they have equal depreciation.

In the above the Leaf is over $6k behind at year 5 compared to a Civic and the Leaf is saving about $500 a year on fuel.

I drive 35,000 miles per year commuting. So, 200,000 miles is about 6 years of use, not 20 years. I didn't say anything about charging, but considering my commute is 160 miles round trip per day, I'd charge the Bolt at least once per day. The battery argument at this point is theoretical, or maybe academic... I spend $4,800 a year on fuel. Going electric, using numbers from my Tesla calculations from last year, fuel cost drops to $1,200 per year. Considering the Bolt is probably more efficient than a Tesla S, I would expect even greater fuel savings; call it $1,000 per year. So rough numbers in my head say price delta of a Civic over a Bolt is $12,000. $12K divided by $3,800 fuel savings makes pay back in about 3.2 years of fuel savings, or at approximately 110,000 miles (3.2 x 35,000) – like I said, rough numbers. Pretty sure a Bolt will go well past 110,000 miles on the original battery. So just a five minute exercise here and it looks like a Bolt makes economic sense for my commute (i.e. not the average person who drives 12,000 miles a year).

[David70]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I drive 35,000 miles per year commuting. So, 200,000 miles is about 6 years of use, not 20 years. I didn't say anything about charging, but considering my commute is 160 miles round trip per day, I'd charge the Bolt at least once per day. The battery argument at this point is theoretical, or maybe academic... I spend $4,800 a year on fuel. Going electric, using numbers from my Tesla calculations from last year, fuel cost drops to $1,200 per year. Considering the Bolt is probably more efficient than a Tesla S, I would expect even greater fuel savings; call it $1,000 per year. So rough numbers in my head say price delta of a Civic over a Bolt is $12,000. $12K divided by $3,800 fuel savings makes pay back in about 3.2 years of fuel savings, or at approximately 110,000 miles (3.2 x 35,000) – like I said, rough numbers. Pretty sure a Bolt will go well past 110,000 miles on the original battery. So just a five minute exercise here and it looks like a Bolt makes economic sense for my commute (i.e. not the average person who drives 12,000 miles a year).

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find....id=37233&#tab1

Using this site, comparing a Leaf/Civic/Tesla - Based on 80% highway, 20% city driving, 35,000 annual miles and your fuel prices.

This is at $2 per gallon for Regular.

Leaf = $1450 per year fuel cost
Civic = $1800 per year fuel cost
Tesla = $1700 per year fuel cost

If gas goes up to $4 a gallon (and electricity doesn't change) the numbers look a lot better for the Leaf. Then saving $2150 per year.

Edit - As I said before, there are a lot of reasons to buy something and reality is the Bolt is far more interesting, gets rid of most of the maintenance hassles, reduces the amount of oil you are buying, and helps support this technology for the future. If I knew someone that had a Bolt and a Civic there is no question which one I would want to look at, here about and drive.

[Fundguy1]

Originally Posted by David70

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find....37075&id=37233

Using this site, comparing a Leaf/Civic/Tesla - Based on 80% highway, 20% city driving, 35,000 annual miles and your fuel prices.

This is at $2 per gallon for Regular.

Leaf = $1450 per year fuel cost
Civic = $1800 per year fuel cost
Tesla = $1700 per year fuel cost

If gas goes up to $4 a gallon (and electricity doesn't change) the numbers look a lot better for the Leaf. Then saving $2150 per year.

Average driver drives a car12000-15,000 miles a year. Electrics less because of range issues. We'llput them at 12,000. So your estimates are effectively triple. Average new car is owned 3-4 years. So putting that at the high side you're loosing big even at $4 a gallon. Right now it's about $1.72. Long term $2.50 is expected. Son lifetime your looking at saving less than 2 grand for the leaf in fuel costs. Sorry.

[drewnel22]

My view is that although electric cars aren't viable as a way to save money right now, they will be in the future. The advantages over a regular gas car like a cruze are; no trips to the gas station, much better city driving dynamics, the instant torque, no maintenance, etc. Once the price gets down a little bit I may definitely consider one.

Right now I drive less than 20 miles a day in my routine. A car like the volt or bolt would be perfect for 95% of the driving I do. For the rest when I have to drive longer distances, I could have a second gas car or just rent one when I need. No one needs a BMW or Mercedes just as no one needs an electric car but I think for some people it can become viable due to the advantages electric cars offer.

[15GT-TO-M235]

how do you guys planning to handle this issue, finding yourself driving over allowed miles?

[Fundguy1]

Originally Posted by 15GT-TO-M235

how do you guys planning to handle this issue, finding yourself driving over allowed miles?

[CirrusSR22]

Officially rated at 238 miles. MSRP starts under $37,500.

http://media.chevrolet.com/media/us/...13-boltev.html

Chevrolet promised to offer the first affordable electric vehicle with 200 miles or more of range and will exceed those expectations when the 2017 Bolt EV goes on sale later this year. With the vehicle’s EPA-estimated range of 238 miles, owners can expect to go beyond their average daily driving needs — with plenty of range to spare — in the 2017 Bolt EV when charging regularly.

“Chevrolet showed the world the production version Bolt EV earlier this year and in a few short months we’ve moved from that vision to a reality,” said GM North America President Alan Batey. “The Bolt EV is a game changer for the electric car segment and it will start to become available at Chevrolet dealerships later this year.”

Bolt EV buyers won’t be able to find a better value for an all-electric, thrill-inducing ride with an expected MSRP below $37,500 and before available federal tax credit of up to $7,500*. Plenty of range, cargo space, technology and safety features make the Bolt EV a great package for any driver.

“While range is important, we knew Bolt EV owners would want more — more space and more power — and the Bolt EV delivers,” said Bolt EV Chief Engineer Josh Tavel. “Our team took special pride in optimizing every aspect of this vehicle, especially its impressive range and ride dynamics.”

When the Bolt EV arrives at select Chevrolet dealerships in late 2016, Chevrolet will offer a flavor of electrification to meet any customer’s needs. Whether it’s the pure electric Bolt EV, the Chevrolet Volt or the Chevrolet Malibu Hybrid, Chevrolet dealerships are full of affordable options for an efficient and engaging driving experience. More information on the Chevrolet electric family and the benefits of driving electric can be found at ChevyEVlife.com.

*Final Manufacturer’s Suggested Retail Price not yet announced and does not include, tax, title, license or optional equipment. Actual savings from the federal government depend on individual tax situations.

Founded in 1911 in Detroit, Chevrolet is now one of the world's largest car brands, doing business in more than 115 countries and selling more than 4.0 million cars and trucks a year. Chevrolet provides customers with fuel-efficient vehicles that feature engaging performance, design that makes the heart beat, passive and active safety features and easy-to-use technology, all at a value. More information on Chevrolet models can be found at www.chevrolet.com.