[HawkeyeGeoff]

A slow car is super relative in a track setting.

iamjamen will tell you about a 86' CRX SI w/ 110 bhp that could probably mop the floor with all your cars on a track.

I wouldn't base it off bhp.

[justpete]

Originally Posted by e36power

What do you mean by this? Not familiar with the phrase.

Punch it out of a turn counting on bottom end torque to make up for way overbraking into the turn and practically parking it at the apex. Comes from thinking a fast car will make for a fast driver.

[e36power]

Originally Posted by justpete

Punch it out of a turn counting on bottom end torque to make up for way overbraking into the turn and practically parking it at the apex. Comes from thinking a fast car will make for a fast driver.

A car equipped with an N54 would seem to provide the requisite amount of low end torque to allow one to do that.

Rather than picking up an M3, I am starting to lean towards picking up a cheap E46 323i/328i or E36 325i/328i to use for a couple years. Figure out where I want to go with this.

[justpete]

Originally Posted by e36power

A car equipped with an N54 would seem to provide the requisite amount of low end torque to allow one to do that.

Rather than picking up an M3, I am starting to lean towards picking up a cheap E46 323i/328i or E36 325i/328i to use for a couple years. Figure out where I want to go with this.

Unfortunately, yes. The 335brah contingent, mostly but certainly not all, do have a lot of fun hooning about.

M3 and M5 drivers have more trouble cuz their cars can get them into more trouble more quickly but at least they don't make the mistake thinking somehow they're fast drivers. Tend to be older, I guess, more interested in learning maybe.

An e46 32xi would be ideal imho but I think an e36 would be easier to turn into a full out race car these days. Either way, great way to learn how to drive.

[feuer]

Originally Posted by Harambe

S2Ks embarrass E90s on any somewhat technical handling course.

This is true. I started tracking my 335i completely stock back in 2013. I was relatively inexperience with RWD. Have had w201 and e36 previously but did mostly track my FWD VW. Stock vs stock the 335i has some of a chance but only if both drivers are clueless. S2000 need to be kept revved up and rear end will want to step out easily. So is tricky to drive. 335i on the other hand will want to understeer which is safer for a noob and will have a lot more exit power. Once drivers start getting better and start modifying the cars for track the 335i won't be able to catch the s2000 even on faster tracks with longer straits. Proper suspension and tires will allow the s2000 to fly in turns that the 335i will need about double the factory HP to pass on the straigh. I run in groups with s2000's and have experienced this first hand. I put down about 350whp for track and I have track oriented suspension, tires and brakes. By the time I catch the s2000 on the straight, often going 130mph I need to brake for the turn where the s2000 will shake me off again. I personally think the old Miata and the new BRZ-FR-S are better than the s2000. Especially the BRZ-FR-S. Easier to drive at the limit than s2000, isn't convertible and has more power than Miata. Winner in my book. So, in track terms my 335i is slow car. Basically.

[feuer]

Originally Posted by e36power

A car equipped with an N54 would seem to provide the requisite amount of low end torque to allow one to do that.

Rather than picking up an M3, I am starting to lean towards picking up a cheap E46 323i/328i or E36 325i/328i to use for a couple years. Figure out where I want to go with this.

I have had two e21, two e36 and one e46 and I will tell you to skip e36 and e46. If you want older BMW for track look into e30 which I regret skipping. If you want newer get a e90. The e36 and e46 break the subframe mounting points. Ask me how I know. The money spent on preventing this of happening to any e36/46 will get the newer e90 328i to be faster than the two. If somebody is to have me pick between e36/46 and e90 for free and build into semi-track car I will pick the e90 with out having any second thought especially if the e36/46 doesn't have all the rear end reinforcements done to it already. That is how much I dislike the e36/46. Crappiest rear end ever. 70's technology. Mercedes introduced the 5 link in the 80's and BMW finally copied the design and used it for first time on the e90. More than enough self explanatory which is the better chassis. They will weight about the same but e90 will make more power. Easy choice for me.

[e36power]

Originally Posted by feuer

I have had two e21, two e36 and one e46 and I will tell you to skip e36 and e46. If you want older BMW for track look into e30 which I regret skipping. If you want newer get a e90. The e36 and e46 break the subframe mounting points. Ask me how I know. The money spent on preventing this of happening to any e36/46 will get the newer e90 328i to be faster than the two. If somebody is to have me pick between e36/46 and e90 for free and build into semi-track car I will pick the e90 with out having any second thought especially if the e36/46 doesn't have all the rear end reinforcements done to it already. That is how much I dislike the e36/46. Crappiest rear end ever. 70's technology. Mercedes introduced the 5 link in the 80's and BMW finally copied the design and used it for first time on the e90. More than enough self explanatory which is the better chassis. They will weight about the same but e90 will make more power. Easy choice for me.

Thanks for the input. Like hearing everyones thoughts.

I have an E90 335i now, which I love. Had an E36 back in the day, which I also loved for different reasons. My wife has an E46 which I feel might be the pinnacle of the 3er. Just love the size and look. The only experience I have with an E30 is as a passenger. A good friend in college (late 90s early 2000s) had a 325e. Never drove it, unfortunately. But a lot of time in the passenger seat.

I will tell you right now that my hesitation on the E36 is the subframe mounts That is why I sold mine. Went bad (years of Chicago winters probably didn't help). Of course I could go M3 which was already reinforced. E30s are getting harder to find in good shape. A couple 318i are available down here now that look like they are in decent shape. Have contemplated that. Would prefer a 325i or even e which I could swap the head on. E46s are a dime a dozen right now. Whatever the difference between these, they are all great cars.

[feuer]

Originally Posted by e36power

Thanks for the input. Like hearing everyones thoughts.

I have an E90 335i now, which I love. Had an E36 back in the day, which I also loved for different reasons. My wife has an E46 which I feel might be the pinnacle of the 3er. Just love the size and look. The only experience I have with an E30 is as a passenger. A good friend in college (late 90s early 2000s) had a 325e. Never drove it, unfortunately. But a lot of time in the passenger seat.

I will tell you right now that my hesitation on the E36 is the subframe mounts That is why I sold mine. Went bad (years of Chicago winters probably didn't help). Of course I could go M3 which was already reinforced. E30s are getting harder to find in good shape. A couple 318i are available down here now that look like they are in decent shape. Have contemplated that. Would prefer a 325i or even e which I could swap the head on. E46s are a dime a dozen right now. Whatever the difference between these, they are all great cars.

Early e36 m3 didn't have the reinforcements. But still, even with reinforcement plates they break again. Around the plates where the metal got weaker from the welding. Same with e46. I know these cars well. When I talk reinforcement on these I mean full on plates on the outside and inside with rollbar and all the way thru bolts that will sandwich the suspension in place. I would not consider anything else as I have seen even anemic 316i brake the subframe. Stiff springs, strong dampers and sticky tires will do it all the time. Unfortunately.

[iamjamen]

Originally Posted by HawkeyeGeoff

A slow car is super relative in a track setting.

iamjamen will tell you about a 86' CRX SI w/ 110 bhp that could probably mop the floor with all your cars on a track.

I wouldn't base it off bhp.

Hey now. It's closer to 150 bhp.

[WhatsADSM]

Originally Posted by feuer

This is true. I started tracking my 335i completely stock back in 2013. I was relatively inexperience with RWD. Have had w201 and e36 previously but did mostly track my FWD VW. Stock vs stock the 335i has some of a chance but only if both drivers are clueless. S2000 need to be kept revved up and rear end will want to step out easily. So is tricky to drive. 335i on the other hand will want to understeer which is safer for a noob and will have a lot more exit power. Once drivers start getting better and start modifying the cars for track the 335i won't be able to catch the s2000 even on faster tracks with longer straits. Proper suspension and tires will allow the s2000 to fly in turns that the 335i will need about double the factory HP to pass on the straigh. I run in groups with s2000's and have experienced this first hand. I put down about 350whp for track and I have track oriented suspension, tires and brakes. By the time I catch the s2000 on the straight, often going 130mph I need to brake for the turn where the s2000 will shake me off again. I personally think the old Miata and the new BRZ-FR-S are better than the s2000. Especially the BRZ-FR-S. Easier to drive at the limit than s2000, isn't convertible and has more power than Miata. Winner in my book. So, in track terms my 335i is slow car. Basically.

While I really love the S2000, and it is truly a fantastic track car I think you are selling the E90 short.

The E90 is a pretty capable platform. On a higher speed track (say Road America) it will be hard for the S2000 to keep up just due to the lack of power relative to a 335i. Sure it will make up some room on the back half of the track, but still its a lot of big sweepers so the 335 shouldn't loose *that* much ground.

A tighter more technical track (say Gingerman) will favor the S2000 for sure, but with that said my E90 M3 without many mods had no problem passing most of the S2000s out there, even the ones with wings and cages.

The key with the E90 is utilizing the chassis balance and long wheelbase to your advantage. I have tracked a lot of cars in my day many were more toss-able and fun, but none of them inspired the confidence that the E90 did... and that's why I was always faster in that car than my others.

[Wifeys335i]

My17 tacoma pro 6spd manual. 0-6 in 7.x seconds and 1/4 in 15.9. Big, boxy, and slow. The exact opposite of my e90.

[sirdaft1]

This is a bit of an old thread, but an e30 or Miata is exactly what people mean by a "slow car" for the track. These are momentum cars. Underpowered but lightweight and excellent for a beginner, since you can push and push and push them to their limits and it takes a lot of effort to overdrive one (ie: find yourself in a bad situation).

As a secondary, the great news is that they are cheap to buy and cheap to maintain. Added bonus, as you learn the cars limits and how to drive the wheels off of it, you may be approached by newer track guys in higher horsepower cars (that may have given you the point by) ask "what's under the hood!? That car is fast out there!". To which you can reply, "a hampster on a wheel"

That said, horsepower is not everything. And feel free to ask away on any specifics. I've run a dedicated e30 track car for the past 4-5 years now and everything I mentioned about above is from my actual experience.

[NFiftyWon]

Under 200hp is slow on the steet, under 300hp is slow on the track

[feuer]

Originally Posted by NFiftyWon

Under 200hp is slow on the steet, under 300hp is slow on the track

What equation did you use to arrive at these specific numbers? Just curious...

[SpartaEvolution]

Miata
Is
Always
The
Answer