[Arcades]

Originally Posted by Germanauto

It saddens me thinking of what the Detroit region could have been had they opened their arms to foreign automakers back in the day. It could have been the Silicon Valley of the entire automotive industry. Imagine all those automakers having their NA HQ and factories in Michigan!

Instead the politicians bought into the Big 3's lobbying and everybody set up shop out of state. The region lives and dies with the Big 3. Even in the good times their stock is still trading at mediocre prices, the state is forever confined to middle-class status. Generally, if you want to make real $$ you leave for greener pastures, like my family did.

And people been wondering a lot lately why Ford is pulling out of the sedan segment lol.

American manufacturers don't even bother to try and compete anymore. Constantly saying this and that when Japanese and European car companies are doing perfectly fine because they try, constantly update their cars and don't bitch about it.

As much as I dislike Musk, he is at least trying his hardest and not letting Tesla be dragged down because Big 3 in American given up trying to compete. I never thought the day would come when I would take a Korean car over an American one... but here we are.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by FC4

LOL...easy there, big guy. With a '15 228i and a '18 330i GT, how far do you really feel towards "the other end?"

Guessing this is humor, but not sure of the implication...both are quite diametrical to the values of a Toyota! One doesn't need raw power to achieve the Teutonic values BMW offers...in fact, over history, that is not at all how BMW established the brand!

[Run Silent]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

Guessing this is humor, but not sure of the implication...both are quite diametrical to the values of a Toyota! One doesn't need raw power to achieve the Teutonic values BMW offers...in fact, over history, that is not at all how BMW established the brand!

He's probably serious. If you read through his previous posts, he is well known for being a bit condescending.

But yes, I agree with you. Irrespective of the cars you even drive, for the simple fact you are posting in an enthusiast car forum speaks volumes to just how diametrically opposed you are to the normal driver on the roads today.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by usshelena725

He's probably serious. If you read through his previous posts, he is well known for being a bit condescending.

But yes, I agree with you. Irrespective of the cars you even drive, for the simple fact you are posting in an enthusiast car forum speaks volumes to just how diametrically opposed you are to the normal driver on the roads today.

Perhaps he's too young or new to the brand to have experienced how BMW grew on the refinement, responsiveness, and overall excellence of the 4 cylinder engines in the 1600, 2002 and first generation 320i (I had a 1977 model bought new in October, 1976) and even the silky inline 6 in the 2500 and Bavaria more known for its overall refinement than raw power. Even check out the BMW Headquarters building in Munich. The significance of the 4 cylinder design cannot be missed. If one has any sense or appreciation for history, scoffing at 4 cylinder engines is a most un-BMW thing to do.

[Run Silent]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

Perhaps he's too young or new to the brand to have experienced how BMW grew on the refinement, responsive, and overall excellence of the 4 cylinder engines....

Well, according to him, he owns several Ferarri's, Porsche's, and McClaren's, so who knows, lol.

[DDD31]

Originally Posted by Germanauto

This article is bull. Yes the Camry is boring, but once they started bringing the shitty Malibu into the mix they lost all credibility. An inferior product that is butt ugly with mediocre reliability and residuals Give me a break.

This is a typical metro Detroit mentality. There is still a strain of anti-Japanese mentality in the area. Way less than there used to be but it's sad that it's still there. Build a better product then people would buy your shit. GM is one of the worst automakers in the world. They treated my father and so many others like garbage.

I'm a Michigan native and that always bugged me. It's backwards thinking. I know for a fact that is the motive of this article.

Whole heartedly agree!

I too am a Michigan native and before switching careers I worked in the automotive industry back in the mid 90's for almost 10 years and saw the same thing. It always blows my mind that these mouth breathers here still say I'm the problem buying foreign cars while GM has closed most of their manufacturing plants in Michigan which decimated the economies of those cities (Flint, Saginaw, metro-Detroit, etc.).

After working at many of GM's manufacturing facilities throughout the state and witnessing the cavemen mentality, horrible work ethic and being treated like dog shit, I can say without a doubt I will never ever buy a GM car.
rant over

[Sportstick]

So much emotion and how it clouds the simple point!! The Toyota Camry is a soulless transportation appliance. For similar, low cost dollars, the directly competitive Chevy Malibu has superior dynamics. Period.

Doesn't matter where you work, where you used to work, who runs the companies, how much you like/hate the bailout, what you will/won't buy, etc., etc., this was a simple comparison of powertrain, chassis, steering, etc., and the Camry came out on the bottom, and the Malibu and a bunch of others (Accord, Mazda 6, Subaru Legacy, etc.) are likely also superior. Why is that so difficult?

(Another 30+ year Detroit "Big 3" prior employee here)

[DDD31]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

So much emotion and how it clouds the simple point!! The Toyota Camry is a soulless transportation appliance. For similar, low cost dollars, the directly competitive Chevy Malibu has superior dynamics. Period.

Doesn't matter where you work, where you used to work, who runs the companies, how much you like/hate the bailout, what you will/won't buy, etc., etc., this was a simple comparison of powertrain, chassis, steering, etc., and the Camry came out on the bottom, and the Malibu and a bunch of others (Accord, Mazda 6, Subaru Legacy, etc.) are likely also superior. Why is that so difficult?

(Another 30+ year Detroit "Big 3" prior employee here)

It’s not difficult at all. The point most people are trying to make is that people who buy a Camry couldn’t give two shits if the Malibu has superior dynamics or isn’t as soulless as the Camry, they want an appliance that is dependable and has superior resale value. I completely agree that the Camry is a soulless boring appliance but I can see why it is so popular.

[Germanauto]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

So much emotion and how it clouds the simple point!! The Toyota Camry is a soulless transportation appliance. For similar, low cost dollars, the directly competitive Chevy Malibu has superior dynamics. Period.

To which I ask, who cares about how the Malibu drives? It's still another mainstream mid size sedan so driving dynamics are going to be mediocre which is the standard for the class. Nobody shopping for a vehicle in this segment cares if the Malibu handles marginally better than the Camry.

The Malibu has shortcomings in other areas that matter to consumers such as reliability, residual values, fuel economy, interior appointments, etc. It's not a bad car like Malibus of old, but it certainly does not beat out the Camry in several key areas.

[Germanauto]

Originally Posted by DDD31

Whole heartedly agree!

I too am a Michigan native and before switching careers I worked in the automotive industry back in the mid 90's for almost 10 years and saw the same thing. It always blows my mind that these mouth breathers here still say I'm the problem buying foreign cars while GM has closed most of their manufacturing plants in Michigan which decimated the economies of those cities (Flint, Saginaw, metro-Detroit, etc.).

After working at many of GM's manufacturing facilities throughout the state and witnessing the cavemen mentality, horrible work ethic and being treated like dog shit, I can say without a doubt I will never ever buy a GM car.
rant over

This is basically the same story echoed by so many former GM (and Ford, Chrysler) employees.

My parents' only regret is not getting out of Detroit sooner.

[Never_Enough]

Originally Posted by Germanauto

To which I ask, who cares about how the Malibu drives? It's still another mainstream mid size sedan so driving dynamics are going to be mediocre which is the standard for the class. Nobody shopping for a vehicle in this segment cares if the Malibu handles marginally better than the Camry.

The Malibu has shortcomings in other areas that matter to consumers such as reliability, residual values, fuel economy, interior appointments, etc. It's not a bad car like Malibus of old, but it certainly does not beat out the Camry in several key areas.

Word. Who cares about any of these boring A to B cars? Let's hear about the sports cars & fun cars with some soul!

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by Never_Enough

Word. Who cares about any of these boring A to B cars? Let's hear about the sports cars & fun cars with some soul!

Who cares = Everyone who buys one, which is a messload more than everyone who buys, say, a BMW ...

... which is in the business of selling more cars. So, for example: the 3 Series has become a larger 'softie' car because people care about those kind of 'softie' cars far, far more than they care about ones you or FC4 do.

Now you know 'who cares' -- and, from that standpoint, IMVHO, you should care, too, because it's those folks who are making the market for those 'sports cars & fun cars with some soul' shrink to immateriality. Jeez.

Think, people. Think.

[Never_Enough]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

Who cares = Everyone who buys one, which is a messload more than everyone who buys, say, a BMW ...

... which is in the business of selling more cars. So, for example: the 3 Series has become a larger 'softie' car because people care about those kind of 'softie' cars far, far more than they care about ones you or FC4 do.

Now you know 'who cares' -- and, from that standpoint, IMVHO, you should care, too. Jeez.

Think, people. Think.

My point is no one here cares, we are the enthusiasts!

You are the buzzkill at parties aren't you?

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by Never_Enough

My point is no one here cares, we are the enthusiasts!

You are the buzzkill at parties aren't you?

I care because I see other points of view, and how those other points of view can affect my own.

I'm the one who gets people to think at parties. And I can't tell you how much that's gotten me laid over the years.

[Never_Enough]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

I care because I see other points of view, and how those other points of view can affect my own.

I'm the one who gets people to think at parties. And I can't tell you how much that's gotten me laid over the years.

Dear lord

[ptack]

Camrys and minivans are like the bane of my existence. It's not the cars that are the problem, it's the people who drive them cluelessly around. People buy and use them just like an appliance. The problem is being stuck behind someone who might as well be at home running the dishwasher rather than paying attention to the act of driving. The definition of frustration is newly paved, winding road with a Camry on it.

[See5]

I don't think cars like the Camry and Malibu are bad cars at all. Boring? Yes. But for the most part, smooth, comfortable, quiet and the base engines will do upwards of 40mpg on the highway.

Maybe I've just gotten used to them because I drive rentals almost every week. I've driven 2019 examples of almost all midsizers expect the Accord and Optima and they're all pretty nice. Especially in comparison to even 10 years ago. I think they've made a bigger leap than say an '08 E90 335 vs '18 F30 340.