[gbalthrop]

Originally Posted by tomgwuyn

... One thing whichhttps://www.e90post.com/forums/multisite-style/e90post/editor/menupop.gif I noted is that the battery ground cable is hanging loose and is not connected to anything.

The "Battery Ground Cable" is what connects the (-) Post of your Battery to the Chassis (located BEHIND the BATTERY), so that ANY metal Chassis area is a "Ground". What you show in your photo is called an "Interference Suppression Band", and it is effectively a "Supplemental Ground" near the Ignition Coils. To properly connect the loose end, remove EITHER of the two nuts shown in your photo just below the band and put the loose end UNDER the nut, and reinstall the nut. Do NOT remove the cover. Those two nuts hold the "Cover", Item #10, in this RealOEM diagram:
https://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/sho...35#11727511542

Originally Posted by tomgwuyn

This is the picture of the battery cable hanging loose.

View post on imgur.com

.

See Reply above for attachment point of "loose end". Connect that and post back if you still have 3- to 4-second Crank BEFORE fire.

Originally Posted by tomgwuyn

It takes around 3 - 4 seconds to crank. And engine is cranking over at the same speed. I called the same BMW dealership today, where I installed the battery, to ask about the cost of installing the Starter and was shocked to know the price just for the parts .
Starter Motor : $442. The service rep said that BMW doesn't recommend reusing the same set of bolts since it is aluminum and wants to purchase new set of bolts which is $1189 . After knowing these price I did not bother to ask the labor price.

Another Dealer, or at least "Dealer Representative", SA, or WHATEVER he is, to DELETE from your contact list.

You do NOT need to replace the Starter if the Starter is Cranking the engine at the normal RPM. If the engine takes LONGER to fire than normal, that is due to OTHER causes. Something related to DME Activating the coils or Fuel Injectors, or perhaps the Fuel Pump (or its check valve).

I would STRONGLY suggest taking the time to download and install BMW Standard Tools and E89 Datens. It WILL take about two hours to download & install the Software, and another hour or two to read about how to connect & get started using INPA to read Fault Codes, but you will then "be empowered" to DIY (Diagnose It Yourself), with the help of the Forum to guide you, and to help interpret your INPA ScreenPrints. Post back if you want Links for Cable & Downloads, and the "Tutorial" pdf.

BTW, if you DID need a new Starter (there is NO indication you do ;-), here are several examples of parts for Total Cost (Starter & Bolts) for LESS than $160. Time to learn DIY if you don't already:
https://www.ecstuning.com/BMW-E91-32...earch/starter/
https://www.autohausaz.com/catalog/k...-328xi/starter

George

[tomgwuyn]

Originally Posted by Daaaaaaaan

Dude, one of your two ground straps (aka: interference suppression bands or whatever long-ass name BMW made up) is loose. Thankfully that's the easier one to fix. Maybe or maybe not the other one is in-tact, but they both do the same thing. And you can finangle replacements or more if necessary for a couple bucks. It's just a wire that connects the engine to the frame ground of the car.

This is 100% your problem, check the sections starting at 2:16 (to do a quick test to see if car turns over with jumper cables used not-as-designed) and 5:06 (to inspect/replace remaining ground strap):

Check 0:29 in the following video and you can see where yours should bolt to the engine (how did it get undone????). Use anti-seize when reconnecting it because it's conductive.

Thanks . Will check this out.

[tomgwuyn]

Originally Posted by Daaaaaaaan

Good news is your starter is probably fine. The bolts cost like $10. Sounds like dealer dummy added $442 + $747 to get $1189, instead of $442 + $7.47

There is a very high chance this happened.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by tomgwuyn

It takes around 3 - 4 seconds to crank. And engine is cranking over at the same speed. I called the same BMW dealership today, where I installed the battery, to ask about the cost of installing the Starter and was shocked to know the price just for the parts .

Starter Motor : $442. The service rep said that BMW doesn't recommend reusing the same set of bolts since it is aluminum and wants to purchase new set of bolts which is $1189 . After knowing these price I did not bother to ask the labor price.

Something must have been miscommunicated. So the MSRP for the starter is $442 per getBMWparts.com but the dealer SA didn't mention there is a $200 rebate for the starter core ("core charge"), so the MSRP you'll pay for the starter is $242. The aluminum bolt set is $11.89 MSRP; it's not $1,189. So the MSRP parts cost is around $255. The expense is the labor because it requires a lot of disassembly time to remove the intake manifold. There will be more parts costs because at least one of the CCV hoses will break, less than an additional $100.

If the engine is cranking at the same speed, it is probably not the starter, since it appears to be healthy. As several members have suggested, you should scan the car for BMW trouble codes as a first step to diagnosing the longish start. I'd bet 3 - 4 seconds is within specification.

Since you don't DIY, your best bet is to find a local independent BMW mechanic and get a price quote for replacement of the starter. But first, reattach the ground cable.
Did you have the valve cover gasket replaced recently? That end of the groundstrap bolts to the cylinderhead at location George stated; it should not have come loose on its own. But again, I really don't think the starter is the issue based on the information you've provided.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by gbalthrop

I haven't owned a "Real Car" since TR4-A, 427-Corvette, & XK-E. Please 'Splain HOW you tow/push start it with Hummer/ Tractor/ Police-bumper or whatever WITHOUT trashing the E9x bumper covers. You got a Tow Rope release like used on a Glider Tow plane? I get the idea of towing to top of hill, but there's Lots of places, NOT located in the Blue Ridge area, where hills are few & far between.

Tow hook my friend, tow hook; and a tow strap of course. The Hummer tow-started the E46 when the starter failed just fine (I'll not go down that non-diagnosis road again ); even with my wife driving the Hummer.

Now when the Hummer's starter failed (twice ), I called a tow truck. For another thread...

But the starter on a Chevy small block installs in about 20 minutes. Just sayin'

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by eljay

$1189 for the bolts?

BMW bumped them up to aerospace Grade 12 Titanium...

[tomgwuyn]

Originally Posted by Chark-attack

Yeah I'd start by reconnecting what appears to be a ground strap for your coils.

As the other much more experienced users have mentioned, it could be your starter and/or fuel pump.

Can you run, or can a friend run, a fuel pressure test at the rail?

I recently finished resolving a long crank issue in my n52 e90. I wasn't holding pressure at the rail beyond five minutes of turning the vehicle off. After replacing the fuel pump, there was no change. After replacing the fuel sending unit, it felt better but not operating entirely properly.

I ended up cleaning both camshaft position sensors and solenoid actuators which did fix my long crank right away.

(To be technically accurate, I had swapped all four of the aforementioned parts with cheap Ultra-Power components before understanding the true importance of OE components and my cleaning also involved swapping back to the original genuine parts.)

Yes, will check on this.

[tomgwuyn]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Something must have been miscommunicated. So the MSRP for the starter is $442 per getBMWparts.com but the dealer SA didn't mention there is a $200 rebate for the starter core ("core charge"), so the MSRP you'll pay for the starter is $242. The aluminum bolt set is $11.89 MSRP; it's not $1,189. So the MSRP parts cost is around $255. The expense is the labor because it requires a lot of disassembly time to remove the intake manifold. There will be more parts costs because at least one of the CCV hoses will break, less than an additional $100.

If the engine is cranking at the same speed, it is probably not the starter, since it appears to be healthy. As several members have suggested, you should scan the car for BMW trouble codes as a first step to diagnosing the longish start. I'd bet 3 - 4 seconds is within specification.

Since you don't DIY, your best bet is to find a local independent BMW mechanic and get a price quote for replacement of the starter. But first, reattach the ground cable.
Did you have the valve cover gasket replaced recently? That end of the groundstrap bolts to the cylinderhead at location George stated; it should not have come loose on its own. But again, I really don't think the starter is the issue based on the information you've provided.

Thanks you sir. Wow, $11.89.... I'm releived now. And yes, replaced the Valve Cover Gasket in June 2019. Will reattach the ground cable and see how it goes.

[Welcome to NBA Jam]

Also check your fuel pressure regulator. If you notice your car isn't priming when you walk to it nearly as much, that's an indicator. If you get a long crank, turn it off, then start and it immediately starts, that's also a strong indicator. Take a look at your resting fuel pressure as well. You need about 80psi on the low pressure side to start if I recall correctly. Your car should prime to that much automatically.

[Meeni]

Originally Posted by tomgwuyn

This is the picture of the battery cable hanging loose.

View post on imgur.com

.

Yes, the battery was changed at the BMW dealership in Nov 2019. And yes I have a Windows OS Laptop.

This is not a 'battery' cable, that's the engine grounding strap. It absolutely needs to be connected to the engine for the car to work properly and this is in a very high position in the suspect list for your cranking problem.

[eljay]

Did the cable re-attachment fix it?
It would be nice to get a conclusion for others searching for the same in the future.

[tomgwuyn]

Originally Posted by eljay

Did the cable re-attachment fix it?
It would be nice to get a conclusion for others searching for the same in the future.

Sorry about the delay. No, the cable attachment did not fix the issue.

[JonOhh]

Just some thoughts I'd like to put out there:

Engine starting is not just a "turn 'till she fires" process- it's a precisely timed and calculated event. A lot happens during an engine start...much more than simply turning the engine over.

When the engine begins to turn, the DME has no way of knowing the exact position OR cycle (turn one or two) of the engine. For this, there is a missing tooth (sometimes more) on the crank position trigger wheel. When starting the engine, when the missing tooth passes the crankshaft position sensor, the DME is then able to determine the position of the crankshaft, however, the cycle the engine is on is still unknown to the DME. For cycle lock to be successful, the DME must get a reference pulse from the trigger wheel on the camshaft. Because the camshaft spins at 1/2 crank speed, and cam position is all telling of the engines current cycle, with the combination of the crank and cam sensor inputs, the DME is then able to determine the engines current position and cycle. Only then does fuel and spark begin, since until these two events take place, the DME would have no idea when to inject fuel or fire the spark plugs. Once ref sync is complete, the main function of the cam position sensors is to monitor cam position for VANOS, and likely also provides confirmation to the DME that the engine position determination is correct.

This is why modern engine starts sound so incredibly consistent and "clean". In some cases, the ECU/DME is programmed such that fuel and spark will begin exactly once the engine has completed two revolutions. This makes startups more consistent, however it's really not necessary. I have no clue if our cars do this.


Now, you may wonder: If the cam position is not always fixed since we have variable valve timing, how do you know the trigger wheel is going to be in the right place at the right time for the ref sync to work as designed, especially in the event of a misbehaving component? Well that's exactly why I've said everything so far.

During startup, under most conditions, I would expect that VANOS would be resting on its (non actuated) end stop, and thus fixed in its position relative to the crankshaft, at least that is how I would configure it. However, in the case of a leaky solenoid, whether it's worn or simply dirty in such a way it cannot completely prevent oil flow to VANOS during startup conditions, it is possible for the camshaft phaser to actuate to some non commanded position, possibly causing problems for the startup reference sync.

Now, this has all been said with first hand knowledge of how these systems work in almost all applications, but NOT in BMWs specifically. It is possible that BMW achieves reference sync in a different manner, even though its been done the way I detailed above since the dinosaurs roamed the earf, and it is also possible that there is so little oil pressure this early into the startup process, that it wouldn't make a difference, however I do not like to speculate possibilities out of existence, and therefore won't. It's better to check something unnecessarily than to never check. With logs it would be quite easy to tell if this is what is happening, but without data, it's always worth trying anything.


I would begin by thoroughly cleaning your VANOS solenoids. Cleaning doesn't always fix them, but it is worth a shot. Some people clean them with a spray like B-12 Chemtool, personally I let the entire solenoid (except the last 1/2 inch before the connector, and the connector itself) soak for 24h in a bucket of carburetor and engine parts cleaner, occasionally taking them out to shake them back and forth to move the solenoid valve around (you'll hear it click back and forth) . I've found that the solenoids conveniently will rest on the rim of the bucket/can by their bolt tabs.


So I guess, give it a shot and see what happens- it can't hurt.

[MightyMouseTech]

If the motor is turning over at normal speed, this has nothing to do with your starter motor, battery or cables. More than likely the fuel pressure regulator in the tank is failing, allowing fuel pressure to drop while sitting. Pretty common.

https://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1004917

[tomgwuyn]

Originally Posted by JonOhh

Just some thoughts I'd like to put out there:

Engine starting is not just a "turn 'till she fires" process- it's a precisely timed and calculated event. A lot happens during an engine start...much more than simply turning the engine over.

When the engine begins to turn, the DME has no way of knowing the exact position OR cycle (turn one or two) of the engine. For this, there is a missing tooth (sometimes more) on the crank position trigger wheel. When starting the engine, when the missing tooth passes the crankshaft position sensor, the DME is then able to determine the position of the crankshaft, however, the cycle the engine is on is still unknown to the DME. For cycle lock to be successful, the DME must get a reference pulse from the trigger wheel on the camshaft. Because the camshaft spins at 1/2 crank speed, and cam position is all telling of the engines current cycle, with the combination of the crank and cam sensor inputs, the DME is then able to determine the engines current position and cycle. Only then does fuel and spark begin, since until these two events take place, the DME would have no idea when to inject fuel or fire the spark plugs. Once ref sync is complete, the main function of the cam position sensors is to monitor cam position for VANOS, and likely also provides confirmation to the DME that the engine position determination is correct.

This is why modern engine starts sound so incredibly consistent and "clean". In some cases, the ECU/DME is programmed such that fuel and spark will begin exactly once the engine has completed two revolutions. This makes startups more consistent, however it's really not necessary. I have no clue if our cars do this.


Now, you may wonder: If the cam position is not always fixed since we have variable valve timing, how do you know the trigger wheel is going to be in the right place at the right time for the ref sync to work as designed, especially in the event of a misbehaving component? Well that's exactly why I've said everything so far.

During startup, under most conditions, I would expect that VANOS would be resting on its (non actuated) end stop, and thus fixed in its position relative to the crankshaft, at least that is how I would configure it. However, in the case of a leaky solenoid, whether it's worn or simply dirty in such a way it cannot completely prevent oil flow to VANOS during startup conditions, it is possible for the camshaft phaser to actuate to some non commanded position, possibly causing problems for the startup reference sync.

Now, this has all been said with first hand knowledge of how these systems work in almost all applications, but NOT in BMWs specifically. It is possible that BMW achieves reference sync in a different manner, even though its been done the way I detailed above since the dinosaurs roamed the earf, and it is also possible that there is so little oil pressure this early into the startup process, that it wouldn't make a difference, however I do not like to speculate possibilities out of existence, and therefore won't. It's better to check something unnecessarily than to never check. With logs it would be quite easy to tell if this is what is happening, but without data, it's always worth trying anything.


I would begin by thoroughly cleaning your VANOS solenoids. Cleaning doesn't always fix them, but it is worth a shot. Some people clean them with a spray like B-12 Chemtool, personally I let the entire solenoid (except the last 1/2 inch before the connector, and the connector itself) soak for 24h in a bucket of carburetor and engine parts cleaner, occasionally taking them out to shake them back and forth to move the solenoid valve around (you'll hear it click back and forth) . I've found that the solenoids conveniently will rest on the rim of the bucket/can by their bolt tabs.


So I guess, give it a shot and see what happens- it can't hurt.

Thanks JonOhh. Will check this out.

[mousefarmer]

Keep a charger on the battery to make sure it is at a good voltage during a cold morning. Also, I would go into INPA and do the fuel pump pressurize to make sure your fuel pressure is at 70PSI (operating pressure) or whatever the value is for your car.

Then try starting the car and see if it starts better. If so, then lift your back seat and look for cracks in the crappy German made plastic fuel pump and pressure regulator and replace. The cracks are tiny but can be seen or smelled, especally in the summer.

[JonOhh]

Originally Posted by tomgwuyn

Thanks JonOhh. Will check this out.

Sounds good, although as many have said, it's most likely your fuel pump/reg- that is just a next step if that yields nothing.