[rangerfan94]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

I have a similar curiosity. If one can park a play-toy GT4 in his/her garage, I can’t see the purpose of adding a G87 to the mix.

Completely different experience (I say that as a 911 owner, not a Cayman owner). For many enthusiasts, owning a car is not just about what one can afford. It's about the emotional experience attached to that ownership. I like looking at Ferraris. I would never want to own one. Hell, my 911 is more car than I can handle, and I drive it like the old man I am quickly becoming. I would never want a GT4--my back hurts just looking at it The Integra Type S really appeals to me and I will likely own one because I didn't buy one in my 20s. Makes no sense that I might have to get rid of a nicer car to make space in my garage. But it's what I want. I'm getting the M2 not because I need it, but because it's the last of its kind and I remember fondly my days owning 3 pedal E36 and E39s. For me, it's the emotional experience.

And then there are people like my father, to whom a car was nothing more than transportation.

[c1pher]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

I have a similar curiosity. If one can park a play-toy GT4 in his/her garage, I can’t see the purpose of adding a G87 to the mix.

I can tell you why I am looking at adding a G87 M2. One, I can drive it and park it wherever and have less concern about what happens to it. Whenever I drive my 911, I'm concerned about door dings, people who like to key cars etc.

Two, I feel like M2 is going to depreciate a lot regardless of how many miles I drive it relative to my 911. I try to keep the 911 to 5,000 miles a year and its still worth what I paid for it. It's two years old. I can't do that with the M2. I realize there will be a point where the 911 starts to depreciate more, but it's a much slower curve if I keep the miles lower.

Three, it's a real M car now with an M engine and appears to be fun to drive and something I can enjoy almost as much as the 911.

[c1pher]

Originally Posted by rangerfan94

Completely different experience (I say that as a 911 owner, not a Cayman owner). For many enthusiasts, owning a car is not just about what one can afford. It's about the emotional experience attached to that ownership. I like looking at Ferraris. I would never want to own one. Hell, my 911 is more car than I can handle, and I drive it like the old man I am quickly becoming. I would never want a GT4--my back hurts just looking at it The Integra Type S really appeals to me and I will likely own one because I didn't buy one in my 20s. Makes no sense that I might have to get rid of a nicer car to make space in my garage. But it's what I want. I'm getting the M2 not because I need it, but because it's the last of its kind and I remember fondly my days owning 3 pedal E36 and E39s. For me, it's the emotional experience.

And then there are people like my father, to whom a car was nothing more than transportation.

I was offered a GT4 RS allotment and people think I was crazy for turning it down. But for the reasons you outlined, it just didn't make sense for me. I have been asking for a GT3 Touring but that's like unobtainium.

[bobSupra]

Originally Posted by Squidget

I don't have a link, but I recall an interview where they implied that they no longer had ground-up expertise with RWD sports powertrains, in-house. In house they are all transverse mount FWD experts.

Hence why they partnered with BMW on the Supra and Subaru on the FRS/86. The cost to redevelop that expertise would be prohibitive.

The Z4 is great if you want a 2 seat tourer (and don't want a manual). It's a very pleasant ride!

Edit: I checked, the only other RWD Toyotas I can find are trucks or SUVs.

No no no. Toyota could build a space ship if they wanted. They make rear wheel drive race cars already.

The reason was to not have to recoup R&d expense and be able to make an affordable Sports car like the heritage Supra.

The fact was: they said that they would have to sell a new supra for 125-150k per copy to break even. By partnering w BMW they cut the costs in half. Toyotas part of the bargain was/is sharing important EV knowledge with BMW in exchange.

Gt4 is in another universe. I have ridden in a friend's new GT4 rs. insane car that commands insane premium. The new M2 is an amazing machine for 95% of the population- meaning very few will ever take it to the track. BMW knows this Those that do, will track twice a year. less then .01% will be track rats and go every weekend. It will be a strong, cool, luxurious street car.

[JustinHEMI]

Originally Posted by c1pher

I can tell you why I am looking at adding a G87 M2. One, I can drive it and park it wherever and have less concern about what happens to it. Whenever I drive my 911, I'm concerned about door dings, people who like to key cars etc.

Two, I feel like M2 is going to depreciate a lot regardless of how many miles I drive it relative to my 911. I try to keep the 911 to 5,000 miles a year and its still worth what I paid for it. It's two years old. I can't do that with the M2. I realize there will be a point where the 911 starts to depreciate more, but it's a much slower curve if I keep the miles lower.

Three, it's a real M car now with an M engine and appears to be fun to drive and something I can enjoy almost as much as the 911.

Did you buy the 911 as an investment? Maybe it's off topic for this thread, I'm just trying to understand the mindset involved with buying a car I have worry about the mileage of from a value perspective. Maybe I just will never understand it since I'll never be able to own such a rarified car. Not sure I would even if I could if I have to save the miles for the next owner.


The M2 is perfect for guys like me..., that aren't 100K+ car buyers, are weekend warriors (back roads, 1-2 track events, maybe a bit of autocross), and want a beastly street performer. I agree with those that say it isn't targeting track rats, but I also appreciate that there are track rats going after the G87 (See Jackie Ding). For people like me, G87 knocked it out of the park.

[tracer bullet]

Originally Posted by zero21

Didn't BMW BLOG drive a Z4 with a manual?

I don't think so, unfortunately. I looked again this morning, everything they have to say is that it "will" happen but they haven't actually discussed seeing one IRL.

There were, for a while, some of the 4-cyclinder models with sticks.

[c1pher]

Originally Posted by JustinHEMI

Did you buy the 911 as an investment? Maybe it's off topic for this thread, I'm just trying to understand the mindset involved with buying a car I have worry about the mileage of from a value perspective. Maybe I just will never understand it since I'll never be able to own such a rarified car. Not sure I would even if I could if I have to save the miles for the next owner.


The M2 is perfect for guys like me..., that aren't 100K+ car buyers, are weekend warriors (back roads, 1-2 track events, maybe a bit of autocross), and want a beastly street performer. I agree with those that say it isn't targeting track rats, but I also appreciate that there are track rats going after the G87 (See Jackie Ding). For people like me, G87 knocked it out of the park.

No it's not an investment, but it's just nice knowing if for some reason I do want to sell it, I haven't lost my a$$. I'd also like to own the 911 the rest of my life, drive it but not run it into the ground. If I drive it 20,000 miles a year, I doubt it will still be around when I'm 75. This was an aspirational car for me and likely the only one I'll ever have especially that I got an allocation for to build. So it's special to me in particular.

When a car typically loses half it's value in 3-4 years, owning something that somewhat maintains it's value makes you (or at least me) more cognizant of it. In 3-4 years, unfortunately that new M2 will probably be worth $35-40k of the $65-75k it originally cost. This obviously depends on the condition, mileage etc. It probably holds its value better than most other cars, but it's going to have a stronger depreciation curve than the 911. And that bears out historically. The current market and inflation is skewing numbers upward though for all cars.

[JustinHEMI]

Originally Posted by c1pher

No it's not an investment, but it's just nice knowing if for some reason I do want to sell it, I haven't lost my a$$. I'd also like to own the 911 the rest of my life, drive it but not run it into the ground. If I drive it 20,000 miles a year, I doubt it will still be around when I'm 75. This was an aspirational car for me and likely the only one I'll ever have especially that I got an allocation for to build. So it's special to me in particular.

When a car typically loses half it's value in 3-4 years, owning something that somewhat maintains it's value makes you (or at least me) more cognizant of it. In 3-4 years, unfortunately that new M2 will probably be worth $35-40k of the $65-75k it originally cost. This obviously depends on the condition, mileage etc. It probably holds its value better than most other cars, but it's going to have a stronger depreciation curve than the 911. And that bears out historically. The current market and inflation is skewing numbers upward though for all cars.

Ah that makes a lot of sense to me from that perspective, thank you!


It's interesting to hear different perspectives and I was curious about yours because when I dropped my M2 off at the PPF guy, there was a brand new GT4 RS sitting there with 10 miles on it. Owner hasn't even seen it yet. Was sent from the dealer straight to PPF guy. The owner told the PPF guy to not bother trailering it to him, that the PPF guy could drive it to him. In the rain. With 10 miles on it.

I can't imagine being so chill with such a car.

[Ravenseal]

Originally Posted by JustinHEMI

Owner hasn't even seen it yet. Was sent from the dealer straight to PPF guy. The owner told the PPF guy to not bother trailering it to him, that the PPF guy could drive it to him. In the rain. With 10 miles on it.

I can't imagine being so chill with such a car.

Rich people gonna rich. Lol.

[ASAP]

I will also add that outside of seeing a review of these cars on the street, I would have also preferred that the review was done on the vehicle's stock tires.... switching to an RE71 RS just proves it's a test for pretty much track rats only. I had an M2C and would have never even considered that... I am willing to bet that on the street, the G87 would have won this test by a mile.

[Squidget]

Originally Posted by ASAP

I will also add that outside of seeing a review of these cars on the street, I would have also preferred that the review was done on the vehicle's stock tires.... switching to an RE71 RS just proves it's a test for pretty much track rats only. I had an M2C and would have never even considered that... I am willing to bet that on the street, the G87 would have won this test by a mile.

Not sure it would have made so much difference for the Supra vs. G87, stock to stock. The Supra is a super fun and capable street car, at least until it bites you and puts you in a ditch. But yes, if the F87 is put back on its stock tires it will lose more ground.

I think it depends on how you define street driving.

If "street driving" just means hooning around, the Supra is better bang for buck due to its tailhappy nature and low end boost tuning.

If "street driving" includes any kind of practicality, like being able to haul stuff, comfort over broken roads, or visibility, the G87 is better.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by Squidget

Not sure it would have made so much difference for the Supra vs. G87, stock to stock. The Supra is a super fun and capable street car, at least until it bites you and puts you in a ditch. But yes, if the F87 is put back on its stock tires it will lose more ground.

I think it depends on how you define street driving.

If "street driving" just means hooning around, the Supra is better bang for buck due to its tailhappy nature and low end boost tuning.

If "street driving" includes any kind of practicality, like being able to haul stuff, comfort over broken roads, or visibility, the G87 is better.

well, the G87 is also the fastest car here in a straightline which on the street would matter

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by c1pher

No it's not an investment, but it's just nice knowing if for some reason I do want to sell it, I haven't lost my a$$. I'd also like to own the 911 the rest of my life, drive it but not run it into the ground. If I drive it 20,000 miles a year, I doubt it will still be around when I'm 75. This was an aspirational car for me and likely the only one I'll ever have especially that I got an allocation for to build. So it's special to me in particular.

When a car typically loses half it's value in 3-4 years, owning something that somewhat maintains it's value makes you (or at least me) more cognizant of it. In 3-4 years, unfortunately that new M2 will probably be worth $35-40k of the $65-75k it originally cost. This obviously depends on the condition, mileage etc. It probably holds its value better than most other cars, but it's going to have a stronger depreciation curve than the 911. And that bears out historically. The current market and inflation is skewing numbers upward though for all cars.

Totally agree. As someone who’s tinkered around with the 911 idea and even put down a deposit, my mindset is this: unless it’s a GT car, it will hold its value relative to other options but certainly isn’t an investment, particularly for someone who wants to drive the car and enjoy it and not worry about depreciation.

However, unless you’re at the point financially where you don’t mind the dangerous big city morning commute in your mclaren to drop the kid off at private school (as an illustration), you have to mind where you drive it, park it, deal with prying eyes and attention, etc… plus every 10k miles is a significant hit to residual value.

Obviously Porsche prices are at a historical high point (including options) at real values adj for inflation. And we are at a scarcity point for ICE engines. And asset values are nuts. And supply chain problems so dealers are making it even harder on us. Perfect storm to make an aspirational outlay for a dream car a frustrating and expensive decision.

Personally, a GT4 or Spyder at $130k with low miles just isn’t worth it. And I’m not going with a 4 banger Porsche for $100k with options (718 S). And a manual base 911 is now a 379 HP Carrera T with options and ADM and taxes clears $160k USD, up 40% or $70k in about 5 years. I highly doubt that upward trend will continue. Look at the historical data - Porsche values decrease in real values during every economic down cycle. Which is what makes this confluence of events so interesting. I do think values will deflate, and my guess is people are selling while the market is still hot.

[Squidget]

Originally Posted by ASAP

well, the G87 is also the fastest car here in a straightline which on the street would matter

I don't have exact figures, but I think the Supra and G87 are both right around 4.0 seconds, +/- 0.2 seconds depending on transmission, tires, etc.

The G87 pulls away in the quarter mile, but I wouldn't call that "street driving" because trap speeds are getting into the 110-120 MPH range. If you are hitting drag strips, absolutely the G87 should cook.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by Squidget

I don't have exact figures, but I think the Supra and G87 are both right around 4.0 seconds, +/- 0.2 seconds depending on transmission, tires, etc.

The G87 pulls away in the quarter mile, but I wouldn't call that "street driving" because trap speeds are getting into the 110-120 MPH range. If you are hitting drag strips, absolutely the G87 should cook.

the trap speed tells you a lot on how the car will perform on the highway... i havent seen an instrumented m2 g87 1/4 mile trap yet...but it would need to be close to 120 which would be flying

[Squidget]

Originally Posted by ASAP

the trap speed tells you a lot on how the car will perform on the highway... i havent seen an instrumented m2 g87 1/4 mile trap yet...but it would need to be close to 120 which would be flying

Right, I'm assuming the G87 will be a little worse than a stock manual G80, which is around 12.2 seconds, 117 MPH trap.

Obviously the G87 can also be tuned to greatly improve its numbers.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by Squidget

Right, I'm assuming the G87 will be a little worse than a stock manual G80, which is around 12.2 seconds, 117 MPH trap.

Obviously the G87 can also be tuned to greatly improve its numbers.

I'd be very disappointed if that were the case... the auto gearbox hopefully makes some of that up but again this comes back to how bad the power to weight on the G87 is... the F87C had a trap speed of 116... so a 1MPH increase or equivalent would virtually be unacceptable 5 years later... if the numbers come back to that, then I am immediately veering back to a G80X... which is a monster with a not too far off weight.

[Squidget]

Originally Posted by ASAP

I'd be very disappointed if that were the case... the auto gearbox hopefully makes some of that up but again this comes back to how bad the power to weight on the G87 is... the F87C had a trap speed of 116... so a 1MPH increase or equivalent would virtually be unacceptable 5 years later... if the numbers come back to that, then I am immediately veering back to a G80X... which is a monster with a not too far off weight.

Well, BMW stated that goal of of the base G87 was to be roughly equivalent to the F87 Comp, so it would make sense if it would trap the same.

Nor do they want to overshadow the M3/M4, so it's not like the trap can be much better. That confines the possible trap numbers to a pretty narrow range, simply due to marketing.

But that's just stock, and artificially detuned. Which from my point of view is great, as that means I get to buy a G8x powertrain at a lesser price, and then I can tune it. I see no reason it can't be a sub 10 second car with basic tunes.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by Squidget

Well, BMW stated that goal of of the base G87 was to be roughly equivalent to the F87 Comp, so it would make sense if it would trap the same.

Nor do they want to overshadow the M3/M4, so it's not like the trap can be much better. That confines it the possible trap numbers to a pretty narrow range, simply due to marketing.

But that's just stock, and artificially detuned. Which from my point of view is great, as that means I get to buy a G8x powertrain at a lesser price, and then I can tune it. I see no reason it can't be a sub 10 second car with basic tunes.

That's a stretch depending on how the G87 grips vs a G80... also you will need to be on aggressive tires... the awd xdrive would do it tune only but that's the only G series that can come out of the factory and do it with a tune only.

[Squidget]

Originally Posted by ASAP

That's a stretch depending on how the G87 grips vs a G80... also you will need to be on aggressive tires... the awd xdrive would do it tune only but that's the only G series that can come out of the factory and do it with a tune only.

That's fair. I was considering the obvious suspension work and tires also. I should have also have said "and the obvious mods."

[Humdizzle]

m2c traps 116
supra 117
m2cs 120
g87 120

all these are the automatic times. they are all pretty close and on the street its going to depend on who gets the better launch. from a roll the m2cs and g87 should be close.

we just need more data. bmw needs to send cars to magazines to fully test and compare to other cars and the previous gen. the fact they are holding back on this until owners get their cars rubs me the wrong way

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by Humdizzle

m2c traps 116
supra 117
m2cs 120
g87 120

all these are the automatic times. they are all pretty close and on the street its going to depend on who gets the better launch. from a roll the m2cs and g87 should be close.

we just need more data. bmw needs to send cars to magazines to fully test and compare to other cars and the previous gen. the fact they are holding back on this until owners get their cars rubs me the wrong way

where are u seeing the g87 traps 120?