[Humdizzle]

Originally Posted by ASAP

where are u seeing the g87 traps 120?

matt watson on carwow and joe achilles tests during the press launch. both trapped a 120. Watson was using a draggy on his windshield which is about as good as you can get given the situation.

[Sedan_Clan]

I can understand the feelings surrounding the 911. After all, I have a 992 C2S and share some of them. I just don’t think I would opt for a G87 AND a GT4 as play cars. I don’t understand the, “I’ll care about my Porsche but not my BMW ///M” comments.

[Squidget]

Originally Posted by Humdizzle

matt watson on carwow and joe achilles tests during the press launch. both trapped a 120. Watson was using a draggy on his windshield which is about as good as you can get given the situation.

I don't remember watson's video, but I watched the Joe A video earlier today before posting. He doesn't actually say he was going exactly 1/4 mile, he just stops pulling at 120. So I'm not sure what he actually did.

Also obviously these are very sloppy runs so I don't think I'd bet on them anyway. Agree we do need a more rigorous set of tests in any case.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by Squidget

I don't remember watson's video, but I watched the Joe A video earlier today before posting. He doesn't actually say he was going exactly 1/4 mile, he just stops pulling at 120. So I'm not sure what he actually did.

Also obviously these are very sloppy runs so I don't think I'd bet on them anyway. Agree we do need a more rigorous set of tests in any case.

yeah i've never actually seen a trap speed picture... if anyone could provide a screencap that would help... i'll wait for the car and driver instrumented test otherwise

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by Squidget

Uhhh... Toyota did no such thing, assuming we talking about a Supra. They used 95% BMW parts. It's lighter because it's a 2 seater and the interior is awful. Caddy's equivalent to the M2 is the CT4-V Blackwing, which is heavier than the M2 (3850 lb), not lighter.

If BMW was actually bad at engineering, we could find a modern example of a better car, right? But no one has built a 2023 car that can do as much (performance, comfort, practicality) as the M2 for less weight and less cost. Why? Because regulations and market forces. Engineering isn't the issue.

You are using the wrong word. BMW's engineering is fine, Toyota partnered with them because Toyota literally lacked the ability to engineer their own sports car from the ground up.

You can romanticize the E46 all you want, but that car cannot be built today. Not only would it be totally illegal, it would be non-competitive on every axis. This has nothing to do with BMW, it's the reality of regulation, crash safety, and consumer expectations.

I think Toyota COULD engineer their own sports car but not at a cost that would in any way be approachable to us or make any sort of business car.

They also have no straight six... the development of that alone would have cost billions and BMW happened to have a great one available. They last time they did that without any partnerships was the LFA and financially that was a massively fail... and actually it was a Yamaha engine not theirs... even the GT86 is partnered with Subaru... it's all cost measures above all.

[Humdizzle]

Originally Posted by ASAP

yeah i've never actually seen a trap speed picture... if anyone could provide a screencap that would help... i'll wait for the car and driver instrumented test otherwise

you can see watsons draggy in his video. ET was 11.97.

at around the 1:30 mark in his video you can see the 11.97 ET pop up right when he's doing 119-120mph.

but again this is nothing official. we don't know if the road was slightly uphill, downhill, elevation, etc.

https://www.bmwblog.com/2023/04/03/2...-60-mph-video/

scroll down for vids

[m2ss]

Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82

Obviously Porsche prices are at a historical high point (including options) at real values adj for inflation. And we are at a scarcity point for ICE engines. And asset values are nuts. And supply chain problems so dealers are making it even harder on us. Perfect storm to make an aspirational outlay for a dream car a frustrating and expensive decision.

I do think values will deflate, and my guess is people are selling while the market is still hot.

When I traded in my 991.1 TT for the R8 Spyder I thought that was the peak until I was offered silly money for the R8 and let that go. It will be interesting to see how many will be left without a chair when the music stops...

[ronin13013]

This is how I got tricked out of my e92 M3! I think I will eventually add a Limerock edition back to the fleet one day.

Originally Posted by m2ss

When I traded in my 991.1 TT for the R8 Spyder I thought that was the peak until I was offered silly money for the R8 and let that go. It will be interesting to see how many will be left without a chair when the music stops...

[aaaaah]

Originally Posted by Squidget

That would be sweet, but I wonder if you can replace a flat-4 with an inline 3. Very different form factors, and you'd lose that low center of gravity benefit of the flat-4.

But no doubt, Toyota builds some great hot hatches.

The 3cyl is already a very small engine so it would be well behind the front wheels.

My understanding is that the bellhousing in the GR86 (or the previous gen, can't remember) bolts right up to it so there must have been a background plan there somewhere.

[mtoosexy]

Originally Posted by Squidget

I have to ask, if you can afford a GT4, why the hell are you even cross-shopping a G87? I really like the G87, but I can't pretend it's in the same class...

Honestly the best part of the M2 is it being in the class that it's in. For 77k, I can have this fun car with back seats for my lil-ones and still have room for a P-car (997 turbo or GT4 on my short list) My wife is willing to drive the M2 if I re-educate her on 6spd, but she does not want to drive a porsche. She said the GT4 we test drove felt like a "stupid go-cart". To that i said,"Yes! You Finally Understand!!" Luckily we have a couple of jeeps that she would rather drive anyways

For me, it really comes down to playfulness and getting the rear end sideways. Have you driven the GT4? Its GREAT in almost every way, but I wouldn't call it playful. Planted, quick, visceral, but not toss-able.
The GT4 is a tool for a different job. I don't have a lot of time or love for the track, so having a super-fast and sticky car only does me so much good on the road.
The last time I had so much fun as the M2 driving a rwd manual was when i borrowed my uncle's Pontiac Trans-AM WS6 back in the day.

To be honest, i love them all and will probably buy the next Very Low Mile, One Owner example I come across, be it the OG, the comp, CS or GT4.
I am not liking the delays on the carbon package that I am hearing(gotta have them seats). I am expecting an allocation at the end of May but if we are looking at an August delivery... Im pushing it to next year.

[Moflow]

Originally Posted by ASAP

I think Toyota COULD engineer their own sports car but not at a cost that would in any way be approachable to us or make any sort of business car.

They also have no straight six... the development of that alone would have cost billions and BMW happened to have a great one available. They last time they did that without any partnerships was the LFA and financially that was a massively fail... and actually it was a Yamaha engine not theirs... even the GT86 is partnered with Subaru... it's all cost measures above all.

Yup.

Side note: Yamaha needs more love in the car world. They helped build virtually every "legendary" Toyota engine ever. 2JZ, 2ZZ, 3S-GTE, take them apart and you'll find Yamaha stampings on them. Those old Taurs SHO's also had cool Yamaha engines, despite the cars being kinda POS.

[aaaaah]

Originally Posted by ASAP

I think Toyota COULD engineer their own sports car but not at a cost that would in any way be approachable to us or make any sort of business car.

They also have no straight six... the development of that alone would have cost billions and BMW happened to have a great one available. They last time they did that without any partnerships was the LFA and financially that was a massively fail... and actually it was a Yamaha engine not theirs... even the GT86 is partnered with Subaru... it's all cost measures above all.

I don't think that the LFA was ever considered to be financially viable even as a concept. Halo cars are rarely money-making proposition from a single vehicle profitability perspective. They are an exercise in marketing and recouping some of the losses spent on R&D more than anything else.

[ourlee]

Time to participate in the douchey signature blocks
Current: 2023 BMW M4 CSL, 2021 Ferrari F8 Tributo, 2020 Toyota GR Supra
Notable Past: 2017 BMW M3 30 Jahre, 2019 Porsche GT3 RS, 2018 Porsche GT3, 2015 Porsche GT3, 2012 Nissan GT-R Black Edition Alpha 6+, 2008 BMW M5 Dinan, 2006 BMW M3, 2014 Mercedes CLA45 AMG

love this so much

[XC3LLR8]

Just watched the video and then came here to see if someone had already posted it...so here we are.

I was surprised the pro liked the older M2 better as a track car, but after hearing the reasons why I guess it makes sense.

And I'd be livid if I bought the new M2 only to find out it gets squarely beat on the track by a Supra. My son tracks a '23 Supra (auto) and keeps telling me it has more potential than the previous SS 1LE he raced, and I always met that comment with a raised eyebrow. I guess I just assumed the new M2 would really crush it on the track, but it's looking like less expensive factory cars will either hang with it, or even beat it on the track. At the end of the day at least you're driving home in a sweet M2, so there's that.

[zero21]

Originally Posted by aaaaah

I don't think that the LFA was ever considered to be financially viable even as a concept. Halo cars are rarely money-making proposition from a single vehicle profitability perspective. They are an exercise in marketing and recouping some of the losses spent on R&D more than anything else.

Untrue. The LFA is still in production as the LC (they just won't admit it). If you don't believe me look at the chassis and body panels.

[Squidget]

Originally Posted by XC3LLR8

And I'd be livid if I bought the new M2 only to find out it gets squarely beat on the track by a Supra...

I guess I just assumed the new M2 would really crush it on the track, but it's looking like less expensive factory cars will either hang with it, or even beat it on the track.

It's always been this way, because the M2 is an all-rounder and a luxury car, not a pure track car. (I would argue this has been true of all Ms for basically forever.)

The G87 SHOULD lose to a Supra on a dollar basis, because the G87 has a TON of stuff the Supra does not.

So give the Supra the win in price and trackability, but don't forget the G87 wins in comfort, refinement, tech, visibility, rear seats, trunk, sound system, engine headroom, and a roofline that doesn't cause brain injuries.

Even the track story may change if you go non-stock. The S58 is a beast, and the G87 has a LOT of weight that can be cut. The mod ceiling of the G87 is not yet known, it's gonna be fun to see what people do.

[XC3LLR8]

Originally Posted by Squidget

It's always been this way, because the M2 is an all-rounder and a luxury car, not a pure track car. (I would argue this has been true of all Ms for basically forever.)

The G87 SHOULD lose to a Supra on a dollar basis, because the G87 has a TON of stuff the Supra does not.

So give the Supra the win in price and trackability, but don't forget the G87 wins in comfort, refinement, tech, visibility, rear seats, trunk, sound system, engine headroom, and a roofline that doesn't cause brain injuries.

Even the track story may change if you go non-stock. The S58 is a beast, and the G87 has a LOT of weight that can be cut. The mod ceiling of the G87 is not yet known, it's gonna be fun to see what people do.

All valid and accurate points.

However, the reviews between owner's and those not married to the car continue to make me scratch my head. I read/watch reviews from owners who claim the car is a "giant killer" on the track and by far the best handling car they've ever driven (and qualify that by saying they've driven much more expensive performance cars), and then non-owner's/pros drive the car and say it's "it's an ok/good car on the track but easily forgettable".

Unfortunately, these mixed reviews are going to leave me sidelined until I can drive one myself. Heck, I'd be happy just seeing one in person!

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by XC3LLR8

All valid and accurate points.

However, the reviews between owner's and those not married to the car continue to make me scratch my head. I read/watch reviews from owners who claim the car is a "giant killer" on the track and by far the best handling car they've ever driven (and qualify that by saying they've driven much more expensive performance cars), and then non-owner's/pros drive the car and say it's "it's an ok/good car on the track but easily forgettable".

Unfortunately, these mixed reviews are going to leave me sidelined until I can drive one myself. Heck, I'd be happy just seeing one in person!

Here’s an oversimplified view: the M2 is a less expensive M4, a bit more agile. If you can get past the looks or if you like the look, and you want a blisteringly quick car and/or a manual transmission, and have $65k laying around, and/or are brand loyal to BMW, get it. If not, …..

I discount new owner experiences with brand new cars. Give them time. I loved the G80 initially but after a few months some of the idiosyncrasies and nuances of the driving experience changed my opinion. Although I do stand by a lot of my initial impressions. It’s just that excitement and anticipation can color the perspective.

The reviewers like SG and SP have a clear view of the initial impressions and differences between the cars. I find that helpful but I want a longer review. I wish Harry (Harry’s Garage) would review some of these cars, but he sticks to higher priced models. He’s brutally honest and has loads of experience. This is why Top Gear (original) became the defacto standard.

[Humdizzle]

Originally Posted by XC3LLR8

All valid and accurate points.

However, the reviews between owner's and those not married to the car continue to make me scratch my head. I read/watch reviews from owners who claim the car is a "giant killer" on the track and by far the best handling car they've ever driven (and qualify that by saying they've driven much more expensive performance cars), and then non-owner's/pros drive the car and say it's "it's an ok/good car on the track but easily forgettable".

Unfortunately, these mixed reviews are going to leave me sidelined until I can drive one myself. Heck, I'd be happy just seeing one in person!

you just need to find the reviewer that gels with your driving style. For me its smoking tire and SG. They'll tell you how the car feels to push it on a backroad with no cops around. And they routinely turn TCS off or down when they are driving. You can see how the car reacts when the nannies are off and start poking/prodding it do things.

Guys like doug can tell you how it feels to drive the car normally around town with a quick pull here and there if thats your style.

[Squidget]

Originally Posted by XC3LLR8

However, the reviews between owner's and those not married to the car continue to make me scratch my head. I read/watch reviews from owners who claim the car is a "giant killer" on the track and by far the best handling car they've ever driven (and qualify that by saying they've driven much more expensive performance cars), and then non-owner's/pros drive the car and say it's "it's an ok/good car on the track but easily forgettable".

All of these things can be true at the same time. Some reviewers own multiple Porsches, or crazy exotics like Lambos. Or they have full bolt-on Z06s that they race. They don't really even consider the daily driver aspect of cars like M2, because they have a Panamera or something for that. Or when they say the steering is numb, they are comparing to GTSes and Elises, etc.

I've noticed these drivers also have a tendency to compare to new cars to old cars no longer in production. Which for collectors with their own garages, is fine, but not so much for people like me.

Other reviewers only have cars at the M2 level and below, because they focus on sub $100K cars that upper middle class people could buy. Mercs, Audis, BMWs. That includes people who are more likely to consider the well-rounded nature, or consider how the car would work as your only daily driver.

They tend to rate the M2 better, because they are comparing the M2 to cars closer to its segment: the RS3, the Supra, the Z, the Mustang GT, the BW4, etc. And within it's segment the M2 fairs better. The steering is better than some, worse than others.

So you need to consider the source, and what "audience" the review is speaking to. For example, SG recommends getting a used F87 CS instead, but I discount that because I'm not a person that can. Likewise, they say the Supra is 0.2 seconds faster on a track if driven by a pro, but the G87 is faster if driven by a casual. GREAT! I'm a casual!

So are you coming from GTS money, or are you upgrading from a Golf-R? Do you need a daily driver? Will it be your only car? Do you demand a manual? Do you need a trunk? These are the things you need to consider.

Also, it helps if you already have owned BMWs,TBH. The steering and shifter is a matter of taste, I've driven BWMs for a long time and it doesn't bother me. But YMMV.

To anyone is really worried that they may hate the driving feel, I recommend test driving an M3/M4, because it's the same.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Squidget

All of these things can be true at the same time. Some reviewers own multiple Porsches, or crazy exotics like Lambos. Or they have full bolt-on Z06s that they race. They don't really even consider the daily driver aspect of cars like M2, because they have a Panamera or something for that. Or when they say the steering is numb, they are comparing to GTSes and Elises, etc.

I've noticed these drivers also have a tendency to compare to new cars to old cars no longer in production. Which for collectors with their own garages, is fine, but not so much for people like me.

Other reviewers only have cars at the M2 level and below, because they focus on sub $100K cars that upper middle class people could buy. Mercs, Audis, BMWs. That includes people who are more likely to consider the well-rounded nature, or consider how the car would work as your only daily driver.

They tend to rate the M2 better, because they are comparing the M2 to cars closer to its segment: the RS3, the Supra, the Z, the Mustang GT, the BW4, etc. And within it's segment the M2 fairs better. The steering is better than some, worse than others.

So you need to consider the source, and what "audience" the review is speaking to. For example, SG recommends getting a used F87 CS instead, but I discount that because I'm not a person that can. Likewise, they say the Supra is 0.2 seconds faster on a track if driven by a pro, but the G87 is faster if driven by a casual. GREAT! I'm a casual!

So are you coming from GTS money, or are you upgrading from a Golf-R? Do you need a daily driver? Will it be your only car? Do you demand a manual? Do you need a trunk? These are the things you need to consider.

Also, it helps if you already have owned BMWs,TBH. The steering and shifter is a matter of taste, I've driven BWMs for a long time and it doesn't bother me. But YMMV.

To anyone is really worried that they may hate the driving feel, I recommend test driving an M3/M4, because it's the same.

Well articulated and reasonable post.

[Humdizzle]

like squidget said its all about what you want in the car and how you are comparing it. the M cars in general try to straddle that line between sporty and luxury. You can compare it to a supra and say 'oh the supra is faster so its a better sports car'. You can also put it up against a similar priced E-class mercedes and say the M2 is a terrible daily driver and uncomfortable/noisy.