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[K9Leader]

Okay, a little bit wordy but I don't want to leave out any important information.

I have a 2010 E91 x-Drive and I have been having some issues with tires or alignment or suspension or some combination. Here’s the timeline:

September 2023 – noticed the steering wheel was not centered and realized this car had not had an alignment in 4+ years (about 32k miles).

December 2023 – got an alignment but noticed the steering wheel was still off center, but did not notice until I was most of the way home. Should have gone back to the shop but, you know, life.

March 2024 – Driving in the rain and felt the rear end sliding/tramming. At home, pulled the wheels off and found the rears extremely worn on the inside edges, down to the steel belts. Fronts were also worn on the inside edges but not as badly, not to the steel belts. Okay, so I figured it really had been out of alignment for a while and the uneven tire wear was the result. My bad for not paying more attention. But, why had the shop not said something to me about the uneven tire wear? That is part of what they should do when they do an alignment (or any work) and it would have been an opportunity to sell me some tires. It’s an NTB/Mavis shop which has always been pretty reliable. Okay, so new tire time.

April 2024 – Ordered new tires from Tire Rack to be installed at NTB/Mavis. At installation I mentioned the alignment and the off-center steering wheel. They brushed me off with “You’re only in for installation. We can’t do any adjustments. You would need to make a new appointment for an alignment.” A little peeved at that response, but adjusting tie-rods shouldn’t be a problem so I would just do it myself.

The old tires were Michelin PS A/S 3+ (with only a little over 20k miles on them so my failure to properly monitor tire wear really cost me). New tires are Continental Extreme Contact DWS06+ (which I have on my C5 Corvette and are fine on that car).

But, over the next few days/weeks, I noticed that the car is not nearly as planted as it used to be. It feels less stable, more skittering along than properly planted. Was I just imagining it? Is there something really different? Is it the new tires? Could there still be something wrong with the alignment? I did at this time finally attempt to adjust the tie-rods to center the steering wheel but no go, frozen solid (which may explain why they weren’t adjusted at the alignment, but, again, why didn't they tell me this at the time?). But the feeling that there is something just not right hasn’t gone away, it nags at me every time I drive the car.

So today I decided to try an experiment – I have two sets of wheels for my 2011 E82 128i – Apex ARC-8s, 17x8.5, ET40 on all-season Falkens for winter and the same wheels on Michelin PS 4s for summer. Since the all-season Falkens are just sitting in the garage right now, I thought I would put them on the E91 and see if there is any improvement. However, the offsets are different – the E91’s wheels are a 20 while the ARC-8s are a 40. Apex’s wheel fitment guide for the E9x says that this exact wheel is a recommended fitment. However, on the fronts, the inner sidewalls are very close to the struts and just driving down my driveway I can hear rubbing. I don’t want to do any damage to those tires just for this experiment. The rears are fine – not close to anything. So, contemplating picking up some spacers for the fronts. But, of course, I don’t need the spacers other than for this experiment so trying to decide if it would be worth it.

Anyone else running similar size wheels/tires (esp. the 40 offset) on the front of an E90/91? If so, were spacers necessary? If so, what size did you go with? Not sure if I would go with 5mm or 10mm, so any recommendations are appreciated. TIA.

[gaze2]

What are you doing man....

Just fix your tie rods, its not that hard, took me a couple of hours on the parking lot in the blistering sun, I bet it will be a lot faster if you have a garage, or a lift even. Hell I think even if you take it to a shop they wont charge you much. And adjusting tie rods yourself? Unless you have got proper equipment I don't ever see it being a good idea.... Just get new tie rods, put em on, then go do an alignment,
Rear camber is normally more than the front, that could explain the rears being worn on the inside. New tires are usually softer, making the car feel the same, maybe check tire pressure?

[wrevilo]

Yes go get a full alignment at a place that is respected for that work specifically. It makes a massive difference to how the car drives.

[K9Leader]

Originally Posted by gaze2

What are you doing man....

Just fix your tie rods, its not that hard, took me a couple of hours on the parking lot in the blistering sun, I bet it will be a lot faster if you have a garage, or a lift even. Hell I think even if you take it to a shop they wont charge you much. And adjusting tie rods yourself? Unless you have got proper equipment I don't ever see it being a good idea.... Just get new tie rods, put em on, then go do an alignment,
Rear camber is normally more than the front, that could explain the rears being worn on the inside. New tires are usually softer, making the car feel the same, maybe check tire pressure?

The tie rods are not causing the jitteriness - they are unchanged from when the car was not experiencing these issues. Yes, I am planning to replace the tie rods after finding they are seized and cannot be adjusted. Adjusting tie rods to center the steering wheel does not affect the alignment as long as the same amount of adjustment is done to both sides - a lot of DIY write-ups and videos on this. In addition to the tie rods, I will be doing all the control arms, front and rear. I just won't be able to get to the job for a couple of months and wanted to see if the tires were contributing to the problem.

I did get some spacers for the fronts and have driven the car on the alternate set of wheels/tires for several days. The alignment is clearly off as it is pulling to the right. The ride, though, was smoother with the Falkens than it is with the Continentals. I can most compare it to the difference between run-flats and regular (non-run-flat) tires. The Contis, though not run-flats, ride rougher, grittier. After the suspension refresh and new alignment, I will reevaluate, but unless the ride feel has improved, I will be replacing the Contis.

[turducken54]

Did they give you a printout? My guess is your toe was within spec so they left it alone and hence the still crooked steering wheel.

Printout could also give a clue as to what's going on. I will say that I don't care for the feel of the new DWS06+ as much as the old version. I lost a lot of positive feel going from AS3+ to the Contis as well, but certainly not enough to think something's going on with the car and my old ones and my new ones are wearing evenly so defintitely something's up in your case

[gaze2]

Alignment doesn't only dictate if you wheel is straight or car veers to one side....
If your tie rods are shots you could get variable toe (for example) which will make the car feel unstable over bumps and at higher speeds. And in your case they couldn't adjust one of your tie rods, so who knows what's the geometry on that side left at. And yes, suspension components go bad over time.

Do whatever you want, spend 200$ on spacers or more on tires or whatever, swap out 3000 sets of tires, adjust hundreds of a degree with a straight angle if you think you can. Its clearly much simpler than replacing 40$ tie rods and getting an alignment..

Turn your wheel to one side, then kick your tire radially (thread side). If there is excessive play suspension arms are most likely bad as well. You could also jack the car up and pull/push on the wheel by holding it 9 to 3 and 12 to 6.

[K9Leader]

Originally Posted by turducken54

Did they give you a printout? My guess is your toe was within spec so they left it alone and hence the still crooked steering wheel.

Printout could also give a clue as to what's going on. I will say that I don't care for the feel of the new DWS06+ as much as the old version. I lost a lot of positive feel going from AS3+ to the Contis as well, but certainly not enough to think something's going on with the car and my old ones and my new ones are wearing evenly so defintitely something's up in your case

Yes, I have the printout.

The before: Front left toe was within spec (0.06), right was out (0.09). Rear left was out (-0.13), rear right was within (0.10).

The after: Front left 0.05, front right 0.04, rear left 0.07, rear right 0.11.

I think they just didn't do anything with the tie rods, either because they were seized or through incompetence/sloppiness/just forgot.

The experiment with temporarily using the Falkens from my 128 did result in an improved, smoother ride. So, once I get the new control arms and tie rods on front and rear and get it properly aligned, I will have to re-evaluate the tires.

[tcphoto]

Why wait so long? The problem won't solve itself and you're burning through tires too quickly. Stop going to NTB or other national brand, they are not reliable to work on any car. Tell the shop that you're concerned about the steering and suspension and please inspect.

[K9Leader]

Originally Posted by tcphoto

Why wait so long? The problem won't solve itself and you're burning through tires too quickly. Stop going to NTB or other national brand, they are not reliable to work on any car. Tell the shop that you're concerned about the steering and suspension and please inspect.

Won't happen until September due to vacations and other commitments - away the last week of July/first week of August, home for a couple of weeks but have to go to my parents' in VA (they are older and can no longer maintain their home or cars - I go down for several days every month or so), then another vacation the last week of August/first week of September. So, I'm not home to drive the car much and, when I do need to use a car, I have four others to choose from. So, the E91 can sit until I can get to it.

While I do most of the work on my cars myself, I've got a couple of shops I use for those items I can't/don't want to do - one specializing in European cars and one general shop I've used for years. I've used the local NTB for tire installation (usually when ordered from Tire Rack) and alignments - they have actually been pretty good, the manager was very responsive and customer-service oriented. And, it is very conveniently located right next to the neighborhood in which my MIL lives (and I also pretty much maintain her house as well so there was always some job needing doing there while I waited for the car). Unfortunately, the changeover from NTB to Mavis has occurred over the past few months and everything has gone downhill - the competent manager is gone and, clearly, the service has deteriorated. I will not be using that shop anymore, even for the most basic of things.

[tcphoto]

Is that an excuse or a reason? Why post if you know that it requires an action?

[K9Leader]

Originally Posted by tcphoto

Is that an excuse or a reason? Why post if you know that it requires an action?

Ah, you must not have read the thread from the beginning . . . or must be having a bad day . . . or both. Hope things start looking up for you.

[tcphoto]

I read it and responded. All is good with me.