[reallymarkedup]

Originally Posted by jmack123

Sure buddy. You weren’t insinuating EVs are “appliances” and your beloved ICE vehicle isn’t. Sure. We all believe you.

haha, you're adorable

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by jmack123

Sounds like you’re making things up now considering the Model S didn’t come out until 12 years ago.

No one was saying maturity was “5 years out” at that time.

Um, yeah, I mean 10-15 years ago (12 years) people were saying "EVs are going to make everything elae.pbsolete AMD take over within 10 years", before that it was hybrids like the Prius that would make everything else obsolete.

The EV industry as a whole is totally overcome with hyperbole and grand dreams. There's been SO MANY magic bullet battery technologies that were going to make lighter, cheaper batteries with crazy amounts of range. Maybe one will actually come to fruition, but who knows. But I just don't buy into the idea that we're 5 years away from some totally paradigm breaking battery that's cheap and safe, and has incredible energy density, and so on and so forth.

[jmack123]

Originally Posted by reallymarkedup

haha, you're adorable

Honestly, between the two of us (go look back at your last two posts including the three para rant), which one do you think is “angry” lmao. You sound like a typical defensive “purist”.

“ItS a uSelEsS aPpLiANcE!”. Lemme guess, you must be a subscriber of SavageGeese? How’s my aim? Lmao. I feel bad. All I can offer is comfort for you - progress is good, everything will be ok.

[jmack123]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

Um, yeah, I mean 10-15 years ago (12 years) people were saying "EVs are going to make everything elae.pbsolete AMD take over within 10 years", before that it was hybrids like the Prius that would make everything else obsolete.

The EV industry as a whole is totally overcome with hyperbole and grand dreams. There's been SO MANY magic bullet battery technologies that were going to make lighter, cheaper batteries with crazy amounts of range. Maybe one will actually come to fruition, but who knows. But I just don't buy into the idea that we're 5 years away from some totally paradigm breaking battery that's cheap and safe, and has incredible energy density, and so on and so forth.

EVs tripled their effective range in a decade. No need for a “revolutionary” battery disruption. Like I said, an increase of 50% (i.e. 400 on average) in 10 years is an ultra-conservative estimate. They will like be 500+ (as Lucid has demonstrated is already possible). At that point, 99% of drivers will only have to “fill up” once a week at most, and the vast majority of them will do so at home.

Go look at China, they already have 400+ range EVs that charge at 500kw (e.g. Zeekr 001). What does anyone need a PHEV if their EV can travel 400-500 miles? Repairs and refueling costs and will be significantly higher for the PHEV in a far less efficient package. Makes very little sense.

I will acknowledge, for many EVs don’t work right now and PHEVs make sense as an interim solution.

[reallymarkedup]

Originally Posted by jmack123

Honestly, between the two of us (go look back at your last two posts including the three para rant), which one do you think is “angry” lmao. You sound like a typical defensive “purist”.

“ItS a uSelEsS aPpLiANcE!”. Lemme guess, you must be a subscriber of SavageGeese? How’s my aim? Lmao. I feel bad. All I can offer is comfort for you - progress is good, everything will be ok.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by jmack123

EVs tripled their effective range in a decade. No need for a “revolutionary” battery disruption. Like I said, an increase of 50% (i.e. 400 on average) in 10 years is an ultra-conservative estimate. They will like be 500+ (as Lucid has demonstrated is already possible). At that point, 99% of drivers will only have to “fill up” once a week at most, and the vast majority of them will do so at home.

Go look at China, they already have 400+ range EVs that charge at 500kw (e.g. Zeekr 001). What does anyone need a PHEV if their EV can travel 400-500 miles? Repairs and refueling costs and will be significantly higher for the PHEV in a far less efficient package. Makes very little sense.

I will acknowledge, for many EVs don’t work right now and PHEVs make sense as an interim solution.

China lies relentlessly. A 400 mile range Chinese EV is really a 150 mile range car at best. But a battery or flashlight from a Chinese company and fact check them if you need more proof.

That said, a 2014 Model S had 260 miles of range per Tesla. A 2024 has 400. That's not triple but is a sizeable increase. They accomplished that partially by increasing battery size from 85 kwh to 100 kwh. Thats not to discount that they did improve range, but it didn't triple, and that's still a $100k car.

[LuisBoston]

Originally Posted by reallymarkedup

You seem to be defensive over something you read into that. I wasn't implying EVs as being more or less an appliance than any other car. You and Luis obviously have some skin in the game, I get it.

You need to get over the fact that some people are enthusiastic about EVs.

[Alpine Wait]

Originally Posted by LuisBoston

You need to get over the fact that some people are enthusiastic about EVs.

Both of my EVs are more fun to drive than my G01 M40i. By far.

[CLTMDA]

Originally Posted by jmack123

EVs tripled their effective range in a decade. No need for a “revolutionary” battery disruption. Like I said, an increase of 50% (i.e. 400 on average) in 10 years is an ultra-conservative estimate. They will like be 500+ (as Lucid has demonstrated is already possible). At that point, 99% of drivers will only have to “fill up” once a week at most, and the vast majority of them will do so at home.

Go look at China, they already have 400+ range EVs that charge at 500kw (e.g. Zeekr 001). What does anyone need a PHEV if their EV can travel 400-500 miles? Repairs and refueling costs and will be significantly higher for the PHEV in a far less efficient package. Makes very little sense.

I will acknowledge, for many EVs don’t work right now and PHEVs make sense as an interim solution.

Lucid only demonstrated it is possible to a point they are allowed to market it that way. It is not possible under "real" conditions. You have to be driving under the right conditions at a lower constant speed at the right temperature, wind conditions, traffic conditions, driving profile, etc. I would say that I reliably achieved around 430 miles of range in the summer and a good bit less in the winter.

Current battery tech just won't get much more efficient. That being said, if they can get to solid state at a reasonable price, you might see the next stair step improvement. Hydrogen will creep into the scene at the same time we might see solid state. Do not expect 600+ miles unless they add to the battery count and do not expect faster charging unless they can change the chemistry in some way not currently known. The charging curves won't change much either unless they find an alternative chemistry.

As for the charging environment. It just doesn't support having an EV and an expectation of taking trips over any distance. I took the Lucid on several trips between Charlotte and Atlanta and spent 30+ minutes in a Walmart parking lot both on the way there and the way back to allow for driving at my destination. I got rid of my EV due to the charging network, not due to the car.

The Lucid was, by far, the most fun car I have ever driven, including my BMW M5 and my older 911. And don't forget, the Lucid is not a cheap car. I will not buy another EV unless something changes drastically.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by mlanes01

Yes why aren't there chargers at gas stations. Why do Tesla and EA put fast chargers at shopping malls.... Gas stations are in convenient locations for a reason... Put level 2 at malls and shopping centers... DC at gas stations right off the highway

Easy, because the EV guy will see about 20 ICEV guys drive in, refuel in 5 minutes and leave while he sits there and waits hoping the L3 charger is moving faster than 80kW to recharge his battery. 🤣🤣🤣

[LuisBoston]

Originally Posted by CLTMDA

I would say that I reliably achieved around 430 miles of range in the summer and a good bit less in the winter.

Do not expect 600+ miles unless they add to the battery count

That’s way more than I need and id rather have 1/2 the battery weight / space use and 300 miles than a 600 mile tank.

Battery tech is improving fast.

This NK platform will be BMWs most efficient and the next generation (ie N02) will be even better. By 2035 the excuses will be moot.

[jmack123]

Originally Posted by CLTMDA

Lucid only demonstrated it is possible to a point they are allowed to market it that way. It is not possible under "real" conditions. You have to be driving under the right conditions at a lower constant speed at the right temperature, wind conditions, traffic conditions, driving profile, etc. I would say that I reliably achieved around 430 miles of range in the summer and a good bit less in the winter.

Current battery tech just won't get much more efficient. That being said, if they can get to solid state at a reasonable price, you might see the next stair step improvement. Hydrogen will creep into the scene at the same time we might see solid state. Do not expect 600+ miles unless they add to the battery count and do not expect faster charging unless they can change the chemistry in some way not currently known. The charging curves won't change much either unless they find an alternative chemistry.

As for the charging environment. It just doesn't support having an EV and an expectation of taking trips over any distance. I took the Lucid on several trips between Charlotte and Atlanta and spent 30+ minutes in a Walmart parking lot both on the way there and the way back to allow for driving at my destination. I got rid of my EV due to the charging network, not due to the car.

The Lucid was, by far, the most fun car I have ever driven, including my BMW M5 and my older 911. And don't forget, the Lucid is not a cheap car. I will not buy another EV unless something changes drastically.

The Lucid has been tested numerous times at around 510 miles at a constant 70 mph. Yes, going faster than that will reduce range, but 430 miles in a sedan is on par with any other ICE sedans on the market.

I agree, EVs don’t work for everyone now, but spending 30 mins at a fast charger to get back to 80 means you would have an effective range of 700+ miles on a 30 min stop. If you’re complaining about that, then I think there are different issues at hand.

Yes, charger reliability needs to improve especially for high-voltage vehicles, but that will be sorted as more and more V4 superchargers come online now that Tesla has opened the network broadly.

Again, there doesn’t need to be a revolutionary battery breakthrough like solid-state. If EVs can travel 430 miles and charge 10-80% in 10 minutes (as has been demonstrated by some Chinese models and upcoming models like the Polestar 5), the effective range will be 700+ miles on a 10 minute stop. No reasonable person is going to be complaining about that.

[CLTMDA]

No, spending 30 minutes was just to get my range back up to a comfortable level to get to my destination, not 80%. One learns very quickly what charging level is needed and what is a waste of time.

You think what you want about Lucid's range. I lived it and know reality. Your last sentence is not reality right now. The charging network is also completely ignored. Just because Telsa is opening up their network doesn't mean the problem id solved. First, they are not opening their entire network and, second, just wait until you see the lines at the limited network they do have, particularly in certain areas of the country. Lines for chargers are not 5 minute line for gas, they are significantly higher. Joust because a fast charger says it is rated at 200 does not mean it will provide 200. They usually only optimistically get to 120. My experience with my Lucid is that I could realistically get 430 miles. At a charger with the Lucid at below 10%, the charging starts out quick, but the rate drops quickly. The most efficient way to use these cars is to run them down to 10%, or less, and then charge them up to the 50-70 percent area as the charge rate slows down to protect the batteries. You can plan most trips, but not without anxiety. How would you like to plan a trip, knowing you are getting down to 50 miles of range with the next fast charger 100 miles down the road and relying on the charger to be operational, charge at speed and unoccupied?

We can argue all day long, but you will not change my mind on EV's. I have lived that experiment for around two years and there will need to be significant changes in both the tech and the network before I would try it again.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by CLTMDA

Lucid only demonstrated it is possible to a point they are allowed to market it that way. It is not possible under "real" conditions. You have to be driving under the right conditions at a lower constant speed at the right temperature, wind conditions, traffic conditions, driving profile, etc. I would say that I reliably achieved around 430 miles of range in the summer and a good bit less in the winter.

Current battery tech just won't get much more efficient. That being said, if they can get to solid state at a reasonable price, you might see the next stair step improvement. Hydrogen will creep into the scene at the same time we might see solid state. Do not expect 600+ miles unless they add to the battery count and do not expect faster charging unless they can change the chemistry in some way not currently known. The charging curves won't change much either unless they find an alternative chemistry.

As for the charging environment. It just doesn't support having an EV and an expectation of taking trips over any distance. I took the Lucid on several trips between Charlotte and Atlanta and spent 30+ minutes in a Walmart parking lot both on the way there and the way back to allow for driving at my destination. I got rid of my EV due to the charging network, not due to the car.

The Lucid was, by far, the most fun car I have ever driven, including my BMW M5 and my older 911. And don't forget, the Lucid is not a cheap car. I will not buy another EV unless something changes drastically.

A lot is said about battery tech, but the other reality is physics. The amount of current needed to charge a 150-200 kwh battery pack in 5-10 minutes is insane. Lucid has the highest peak charging at 300kwh, but you'd have to charge at 600kwh to charge a 100kwh pack in 10 minutes. 900 for a 150kwh, and 1200kwh for a 200kwh pack. That 900kwh charger is a nearly 70 amp load at 220V, without any inefficiences or extra drains included. Now say you want to have 8 stations, like a small gas station would, that's a 560A drop before you add in literally anything else. Like a store to sell drinks and snacks and beer, AC for the store, or (VERY critically) fans and other infrastructure to keep those insanely high powered chargers cool.

[jmack123]

Originally Posted by CLTMDA

No, spending 30 minutes was just to get my range back up to a comfortable level to get to my destination, not 80%. One learns very quickly what charging level is needed and what is a waste of time.

You think what you want about Lucid's range. I lived it and know reality. Your last sentence is not reality right now.

So “comfortable range” ay? Let’s say that was 50% (conservatively) - that means your effective range accounting for buffer at the low end was 600 miles.

So, to recap, on a 30 minute stop, you could effectively drive from Boston an hour PAST Toronto? And you’re complaining about that? I guess you have a low tolerance for discomfort.

[jmack123]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

A lot is said about battery tech, but the other reality is physics. The amount of current needed to charge a 150-200 kwh battery pack in 5-10 minutes is insane. Lucid has the highest peak charging at 300kwh, but you'd have to charge at 600kwh to charge a 100kwh pack in 10 minutes. 900 for a 150kwh, and 1200kwh for a 200kwh pack. That 900kwh charger is a nearly 70 amp load at 220V, without any inefficiences or extra drains included. Now say you want to have 8 stations, like a small gas station would, that's a 560A drop before you add in literally anything else. Like a store to sell drinks and snacks and beer, AC for the store, or (VERY critically) fans and other infrastructure to keep those insanely high powered chargers cool.

The current Taycan, which has essentially the same size pack as the Lucid, charges from 10-80% in 15 minutes on a 350kw max capability. Do the math for me then on a 500kw max charging capacity. If Lucid had the same charging capability, one could go 700 miles on a 15 min charge TODAY. Granted, this is in an expensive, not-very-attainable vehicle at current. Lucid’s problem is that their charging curve is awful, especially relative to industry leaders like Porsche.

There are very few EVs with packs larger than 110kwh, and as efficiency improves, there will be very few that need packa larger than that (pickup trucks notwithstanding - which are likely good candidates for EREV architectures).

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by jmack123

So “comfortable range” ay? Let’s say that was 50% (conservatively) - that means your effective range accounting for buffer at the low end was 600 miles.

So, to recap, on a 30 minute stop, you could effectively drive from Boston an hour PAST Toronto? And you’re complaining about that? I guess you have a low tolerance for discomfort.

The effective range of a gas vehicle with 30 minutes of gas stops is like, 4800 miles (400 miles per tank, 6 stops at 5 minutes to fill up). Plus you don't have to slowpoke it at 70mph. Do that in Florida and you'll get run off the road, lol.

[jmack123]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

The effective range of a gas vehicle with 30 minutes of gas stops is like, 4800 miles (400 miles per tank, 6 stops at 5 minutes to fill up). Plus you don't have to slowpoke it at 70mph. Do that in Florida and you'll get run off the road, lol.

Word, lemme know the next time you drive more than 700 miles, let alone 4800 miles in a two day span, let alone a single day.

I guess we should continue to use inefficient, uncompetitive tech to suit your .0001% edge cases ay?

[LuisBoston]

Originally Posted by jmack123

Word, lemme know the next time you drive more than 700 miles, let alone 4800 miles in a two day span, let alone a single day.

I guess we should continue to use inefficient, uncompetitive tech to suit your .0001% edge cases ay?

It’s ridiculous what bellyaching gassers will project to cling onto their weird obsessions.

Let’s also count the time savings of normal day to day driving in an EV not spent having to go to a gas station. Why? Because most people charge their EVs at home or work. No lost time at all.

The time saved 95% of the year more charging at home/work (or while doing other things one normally does) more than compensates for any extra time I may spend charging on an infrequent road trip.

And I’m not feeding the oil oligarchs.

[CLTMDA]

Originally Posted by jmack123

The current Taycan, which has essentially the same size pack as the Lucid, charges from 10-80% in 15 minutes on a 350kw max capability. Do the math for me then on a 500kw max charging capacity. If Lucid had the same charging capability, one could go 700 miles on a 15 min charge TODAY. Granted, this is in an expensive, not-very-attainable vehicle at current. Lucid’s problem is that their charging curve is awful, especially relative to industry leaders like Porsche.

There are very few EVs with packs larger than 110kwh, and as efficiency improves, there will be very few that need packa larger than that (pickup trucks notwithstanding - which are likely good candidates for EREV architectures).

Quit reading the press and go live it. I challenge you to find a charger for a Lucid or Taycan that can deliver 350. I will tell you, I have charged quite a few times on a charger with one of those nice stickers saying "350" and never got past 120. You are living in press clippings and not reality. I have seen others get just over 200 for short periods of time. I have sat charging next to many Taycan's and they get the same readings.

I will say again, I loved my Lucid and would have kept it if the charging reality had been anywhere near what you spout. It just isn't there. And yes, I looked at the Taycan both before I purchased the Lucid (too many other issues) and as a replacement. I just came back to the fact that my use case did not support EV ownership as my wife and I do travel a bit. The southeastern US just requires too many planning scenarios and too much anxiety.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by jmack123

Word, lemme know the next time you drive more than 700 miles, let alone 4800 miles in a two day span, let alone a single day.

I guess we should continue to use inefficient, uncompetitive tech to suit your .0001% edge cases ay?

Not really an edge case at all, a road trip is a pretty common use case for a lot of people.

I'm all for EVs, but I also recognize they're also sort of a niche use case. You have to be able to afford one first of all (they're more expensive than an ice equivalent right now), you have to be able to charge at home, you have to have no concern about resale, you have to like the funky designs they have now... It's a niche, and that's fine.

I would own an EV if there was a cost parity, and I could ever hope to see an ROI on the vehicle and charger. But right now for me at ~5000 miles a year, there is no economic feasiblility for it. Some people don't care about that, but I do. Until someone makes something that has a compelling product and an ROI, why would I switch?

[LuisBoston]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

Not really an edge case at all, a road trip is a pretty common use case for a lot of people.

I'm all for EVs, but I also recognize they're also sort of a niche use case. You have to be able to afford one first of all (they're more expensive than an ice equivalent right now), you have to be able to charge at home, you have to have no concern about resale, you have to like the funky designs they have now... It's a niche, and that's fine.

I would own an EV if there was a cost parity, and I could ever hope to see an ROI on the vehicle and charger. But right now for me at ~5000 miles a year, there is no economic feasiblility for it. Some people don't care about that, but I do. Until someone makes something that has a compelling product and an ROI, why would I switch?

The niche use is needing to go 700 miles and not wanting to stop for 30 minutes. Most people don’t need that.

The problem here isn’t the EV.