[gbalthrop]

You have reported FOUR (4) fault codes, ALL from the DME Fault memory. The first three relate to issues with Signal received from the IBS by the DME Via the BSD Bus. The fourth relates to signal received from the Alternator by the DME via the BSD Bus.

NONE of those codes related to BSD Bus signals, has ANYTHING to do with Intermittent Starter Cranking. Particularly if you have disconnected the TWO-PIN connector from the Wiring Harness that goes forward into the cabin on the right rear Fender, outboard of the battery (NOT the single red wire in black sheath that connects to rear of Power Distribution Panel).

You have provided NO Fault Codes, Live Data, etc. from the CAS Module. Your Complaint is an "Intermittent NO Crank", where the Starter Solenoid, and/or Relays (KL15 & KL30G) mounted on/in the JB Fuse Panel click or chatter.

The CAS Module activates the Starter Solenoid, via KL50 voltage signal from the CAS to the Starter Solenoid. If you hear the Starter Solenoid, located AT the Starter Motor, beneath the rear of the intake Manifold, CLICK when START button is pressed with foot on Brake/Clutch, then the CAS is almost certainly sending the KL50 signal to the Starter Solenoid.

If you have a Scan Tool or Diagnostic Software (INPA/ISTA) that can read fault codes or Live Data in the CAS Module, you should be able to read a Fault Code such as "A0B4", which means the KL50 signal is being sent by CAS, but the engine is NOT turning (NO Crank Sensor signal received by DME). Please state Make/Model of your Scan Tool, & whether or NOT you believe it can "Connect" with CAS to read codes.

INPA or ISTA would ALSO allow you to view "Live Data" from the CAS Module, such as "Terminal Status", or Voltage of KL50 signal to Starter Solenoid, to confirm that the signal is being sent by CAS.

Some of your other symptoms, like Starter Activating several seconds after pressing START Button & hearing click, or Relay Chatter from the JB Fuse Panel/ Glovebox area, are consistent with a loose/bad B+ supply between the Jumpstart Terminal & Starter (LARGE Red Cable, NOT the KL50 supply to the Starter Solenoid).

If you will provide the Last-7 Characters of your VIN, I will provide ISTA ScreenPrints showing KL50 circuit between CAS & Starter Solenoid, with Location of Connectors in E-Box, Connector Views, identifying Pin numbers of those connectors, & specific test instructions. If you have any questions about using a Multimeter to test for Voltage, please also ask.
George

[ace2050]

Originally Posted by gbalthrop

You have reported FOUR (4) fault codes, ALL from the DME Fault memory. The first three relate to issues with Signal received from the IBS by the DME Via the BSD Bus. The fourth relates to signal received from the Alternator by the DME via the BSD Bus.

NONE of those codes related to BSD Bus signals, has ANYTHING to do with Intermittent Starter Cranking. Particularly if you have disconnected the TWO-PIN connector from the Wiring Harness that goes forward into the cabin on the right rear Fender, outboard of the battery (NOT the single red wire in black sheath that connects to rear of Power Distribution Panel).

You have provided NO Fault Codes, Live Data, etc. from the CAS Module. Your Complaint is an "Intermittent NO Crank", where the Starter Solenoid, and/or Relays (KL15 & KL30G) mounted on/in the JB Fuse Panel click or chatter.

The CAS Module activates the Starter Solenoid, via KL50 voltage signal from the CAS to the Starter Solenoid. If you hear the Starter Solenoid, located AT the Starter Motor, beneath the rear of the intake Manifold, CLICK when START button is pressed with foot on Brake/Clutch, then the CAS is almost certainly sending the KL50 signal to the Starter Solenoid.

If you have a Scan Tool or Diagnostic Software (INPA/ISTA) that can read fault codes or Live Data in the CAS Module, you should be able to read a Fault Code such as "A0B4", which means the KL50 signal is being sent by CAS, but the engine is NOT turning (NO Crank Sensor signal received by DME). Please state Make/Model of your Scan Tool, & whether or NOT you believe it can [...]

First of all I’m sorry for providing information that doesn’t have anything to do with the starting problem. I’m quite new to cars and diagnosing faults.

Did I understand correctly that IF the CAS module would be faulty here, it wouldn’t send that KL50 signal to the starter solenoid? And if it does, then my problem most likely isn’t with the CAS module? Could the signal be sent to the solenoid but it would be too weak? I think I have gotten the fault code ”A0B4” before when trying to find the cause for this but it was a better scanner.

I now used a software called ”Autocom” to read the fault codes but I have INPA on a DVD that I’m planning to setup to the laptop. This is probably 100% necessary for finding the actual culprit.

The last 7 numbers of my VIN are ”KR97149”. Also BIG thanks to you for taking the time to explain this to me and I would REALLY appreciate if you could give me instructions regarding the testing of the KL50 signal!

[ace2050]

Originally Posted by e92tincan

mhm interesting. what if you try removing the CAS module and letting it "dry out" it could be failing but it still has some life in it.

I was planning on to remove and inspect it but after a year I don’t think there would be any moisture in the module anymore but rather some damage caused by the moisture. Anyway thank you for the advice I will update you after getting my hands to the module.

[ace2050]

Originally Posted by gbalthrop

You have reported FOUR (4) fault codes, ALL from the DME Fault memory. The first three relate to issues with Signal received from the IBS by the DME Via the BSD Bus. The fourth relates to signal received from the Alternator by the DME via the BSD Bus.

NONE of those codes related to BSD Bus signals, has ANYTHING to do with Intermittent Starter Cranking. Particularly if you have disconnected the TWO-PIN connector from the Wiring Harness that goes forward into the cabin on the right rear Fender, outboard of the battery (NOT the single red wire in black sheath that connects to rear of Power Distribution Panel).

You have provided NO Fault Codes, Live Data, etc. from the CAS Module. Your Complaint is an "Intermittent NO Crank", where the Starter Solenoid, and/or Relays (KL15 & KL30G) mounted on/in the JB Fuse Panel click or chatter.

The CAS Module activates the Starter Solenoid, via KL50 voltage signal from the CAS to the Starter Solenoid. If you hear the Starter Solenoid, located AT the Starter Motor, beneath the rear of the intake Manifold, CLICK when START button is pressed with foot on Brake/Clutch, then the CAS is almost certainly sending the KL50 signal to the Starter Solenoid.

If you have a Scan Tool or Diagnostic Software (INPA/ISTA) that can read fault codes or Live Data in the CAS Module, you should be able to read a Fault Code such as "A0B4", which means the KL50 signal is being sent by CAS, but the engine is NOT turning (NO Crank Sensor signal received by DME). Please state Make/Model of your Scan Tool, & whether or NOT you believe it can [...]

Found it. You can see the A0B4 fault code there. This raport is from like half a year ago but it was the same exact problem but I didn’t find the solution back then and just gave up. So does this mean the CAS is working correctly because it it sending the KL50 signal to the starter solenoid? I’m a bit confused, sorry. Also the answer to your earlier question regarding if my scan tool is able to connect with CAS, I don’t think it can and that’s why I will try to setup INPA.

[ace2050]

Alright so little update:

I still haven’t gotten my laptop so I can’t really do any further diagnosis yet. I tried to start the car again today and noticed something strange. The park lights can be turned on even though I don’t have the key in the fob. Whenever I turn the park lights on, there is a strange noise coming from somwhere in the drivers side foot space. It lasts for about 3 seconds and is hard to hear if not paying attention.

I for some reason tried to start the car and at the same time fumble with the light switch and WOAH the car started. I tried to do it again and the car would start three more times and then again nothing. I don’t know if this is connected but it seems like it is.

Also with the power on and fumbling with the light switch, there is a small delay. I tried to find the connector with the starter solenoid cable in the DME box to try to start the car by putting 12V straight to the solenoid but I couldn’t find the right cable.

I have tried to do research of these symptoms but it seems pretty rare that my car is acting this way and I can’t find anyone with the same problem. Appareantly my BCM (body control module) could be faulty but I don’t get how it would cause a no crank no start.

I took some videos of these symptoms and also a video next to the DME while trying to start the car. I’m sorry for spamming and probably giving information of things that aren’t necessarily relevant in this case but I really need my car for work so I’m trying to do as much as I can.

Please let me know if these could rule out some possible faults or give new leads as to what is causing my problem.

Links to the videos:

https://youtube.com/shorts/T8rjJFYey...HtCO6ySrDqHBe8

https://youtube.com/shorts/lScnyJlHz...-lKYJgJc0aX28j

https://youtube.com/shorts/PSDMgB2LC...m0-VWkl1oi-uh7

Best regards
Akseli

[gbalthrop]

Originally Posted by ace2050

...
[1] The park lights can be turned on even though I don’t have the key in the fob. Whenever I turn the park lights on, there is a strange noise coming from somewhere in the drivers side foot space. It lasts for about 3 seconds and is hard to hear if not paying attention.

I for some reason tried to start the car and at the same time fumble with the light switch and WOAH the car started. I tried to do it again and the car would start three more times and then again nothing. I don’t know if this is connected but it seems like it is. Also with the power on and fumbling with the light switch, there is a small delay.

[2] I tried to find the connector with the starter solenoid cable in the DME box to try to start the car by putting 12V straight to the solenoid but I couldn’t find the right cable... Best regards, Akseli

Hi Akseli,
I apologize for sounding like I was being accusatory in my first response. I was simply trying to get everyone on same page. You have the advantage over me, in that you are bi-lingual (at least ;-) Using Google Translate, I was able to get the gist of the Finnish in your ScreenPrint of your Scan Tool Fault Codes list. The Last Module shown was IHKA/ Climate Control. FRM lighting module was NOT shown.

If there are FRM Fault Codes (or any CAS Faults other than A0B4), please attach list of codes in FRM/CAS. See ISTA ScreenPrints, attached to NEXT Post, for your KR97149 VIN-7.

The S8 Light Switch is connected to the FRM Module. There is ONE connection (logically & electrically ;-) to the CAS Module that I am aware of:
CAS Module sends a Voltage Signal (KL15_x) to the FRM, presumably with Ignition ON (KL15 Active), via the Green/Yellow wire, from CAS Connector X13376/14 to FRM Connector. That voltage signal should ONLY be present with Ignition ON, AFAIK.

You didn't say if you had CA (Comfort Access), or NOT. That MIGHT make a difference as to the CAUSE of the issue, so please advise. Unless you state otherwise, I'll ASSume you do NOT have CA. The soft noise you hear for ~ 3 seconds after turning Parking Lights ON could be coming from EITHER the CAS Module, OR the FRM Module. Both are over the Driver Footwell, FRM more "Outboard" than CAS, on top-side of Footwell. If you remove Trim Panel over footwell you should be able to access either. Which one is the SOURCE of the sound you are hearing would be a CLUE.

Another approach would be to carefully (since power seems to be flowing even without key inserted or Ignition ON) disconnect S8 Connector from back of S8 Light Switch, & see if Engine NOW Starts. You appear to be attentive to Details, as MOST would NOT have found this S8 issue. That suggests a HIGH likelihood you will solve this issue, whatever its cause.

There are MANY ways you can test if S8 Connector is disconnected, using a Multimeter & the attached wiring diagram. ONE such way would be to test for voltage at FRM Connector X14261/12, the Green/Yellow wire coming from the CAS Module, 15_LSZ, as shown in attached ScreenPrints. Also test for 5V (NOT battery voltage) at X10164/5, Green Wire from FRM. Test BOTH with Ignition OFF & with Ignition ON. As I understand it, there should be NO Terminal 15 (KL15) voltage with Ignition OFF. CAS turns KL15 ON/OFF, & INPA would show status of KL15_x Voltage (there are multiple KL15 terminals displayed in INPA).

The more conventional tests are for KL50 signal voltage from CAS, & "Hot-wiring" the Starter Solenoid. Attached are CAS wiring diagrams of KL50 wiring between CAS & Starter Solenoid. Starter Motor is M6510a. The Black wire from CAS goes to X6011 in E-box & then to X60531. Somewhere before/at X60531, the wire going to Starter Solenoid becomes White, at least on other diagrams. It should be a Medium-sized wire, 2.5mm-square cross-section.

I would suggest the following tests:
1) Test for voltage, during Starter Cranking attempt, at X6011/3, Black wire;
2) Apply Voltage (from Jumpstart Terminal) to White wire at X60531/2; that wire goes to starter Solenoid. MAKE SURE Shift Lever in PARK & Handbrake Set. You are over-riding Safety switches related to Brake & P/N!

I've been active on E9x forums for nearly 8 years & don't recall hearing anyone with an S8 Light Switch being related to "NO Crank". Be aware that there are TWO "Safety-Switch" effects on AT models:

A) Starter will NOT crank unless CAS receives signal from Brake Light Switch that Brake Pedal is pressed. So make sure your Brake Lights come on when Pedal is pressed with Key in Insert Compartment. That does NOT assure that CAS is receiving the signal (INPA would show that), but it at least shows if the switch is working.

B) P/N signal from Automatic Transmission, via PT-CAN Bus, showing Gear Selected is either Park or Neutral. Check Lower display of Instrument Cluster for Gear Selected. Once again, if "P" appears when Selector is in Park Position, then at least the Bus signal is sent -- It MAY not be received by CAS -- INPA would show that. It shows those & other INPUTS to the CAS module.

I'm NOT familiar with the "Immobilizer" on EWS versions other than EWS4. My understanding is the Immobilizer is a "Handshake" or Query/Response between CAS & DME, DURING CRANKING, & NOT something that prevents cranking. Perhaps someone with EWS prior to EWS4 can enlighten us.

Please let us know what you find, & what further info is needed.
George

[gbalthrop]

ISTA ScreenPrints related to Prior Post. Please also check B+ wires at Jumpstart Terminal under hood, shown in 3rd ScreenPrint.
Also, when Starter will NOT crank, test Ground Strap by applying single Jumper Cable between Hex-pin Chassis Ground on
Right Wing/Fender & metal bracket or Bolt on Engine, as a supplemental ground.
George

[islam.khattab]

I’ve just bought an e92 2012 328xi with 113k miles on it a month ago, and it started to do the same two days ago after a break fluid service- don’t know if it’s related- , checked the battery on bimmerlink and found it was 61% SoC and was last replaced from 30K miles, I found it was not correctly registered, so I thought it would be all for a faulty battery, So I bought a new 95AH AGM and coded it throught bimmercode and registered it with bimmerlink, tested it after installation and it fired up from the first time, I thought that’s it, second day cold start was okay, then after driving for 15 mins hopped off to get something and boom it did it again after 2-3 trials it started.

Checked the engine groung with a voltmeter between the ground terminal and the oil filter housing and it reads 0v .

According to my search I thought that my starter is on its way out so I was planning to get it check or replaced.

Didn’t do any IBS troubleshooting as there seems to be no way to find out unless I get an error registered which I don’t have, also no BDC related errors as well, also I’ve on the bimmerlink app sensors reading from the IBS within normal ranges.

Came here to post about it and came accross this thread, I see the OP had did an extensive troubleshooting and replaced a lot of parts which made me worried that this could be a long time consuming issue.

ace2050 I am just curious why didn’t you suspect the starter from the beginning seeing you have this issue for long time now, also how much would it cost to replace it in an indy shop? Is it more happening during winter/cold weather or it is irrelevant?

[ace2050]

Originally Posted by islam.khattab

I’ve just bought an e92 2012 328xi with 113k miles on it a month ago, and it started to do the same two days ago after a break fluid service- don’t know if it’s related- , checked the battery on bimmerlink and found it was 61% SoC and was last replaced from 30K miles, I found it was not correctly registered, so I thought it would be all for a faulty battery, So I bought a new 95AH AGM and coded it throught bimmercode and registered it with bimmerlink, tested it after installation and it fired up from the first time, I thought that’s it, second day cold start was okay, then after driving for 15 mins hopped off to get something and boom it did it again after 2-3 trials it started.

Checked the engine groung with a voltmeter between the ground terminal and the oil filter housing and it reads 0v .

According to my search I thought that my starter is on its way out so I was planning to get it check or replaced.

Didn’t do any IBS troubleshooting as there seems to be no way to find out unless I get an error registered which I don’t have, also no BDC related errors as well, also I’ve on the bimmerlink app sensors reading from the IBS within normal ranges.

Came here to post about it and came accross this thread, I see the OP had did an extensive troubleshooting and replaced a lot of parts which made me worried that this could be a long time consuming issue.

ace2050 I am just curious why didn’t you suspect the starter from the beginning seeing you have this issue for long time now, also how much would it cost to replace it in an indy shop? Is it more [...]

Alright so I didn’t replace those parts (battery, alternator, IBS-sensor etc) due to this fault. My battery was original and wasn’t in the best condition so I just thought to replace it. My IBS-sensor was also in bad condition and the car was still under warranty so I got it changed for free. Lastly the alternator simply broke a few months ago during my ride from work to home so I had to replace that aswell.

Answer to your question as to why I didn’t suspect the starter to be the culprit, I did. At first I thought it would break very soon after the problem started like starter motors usually do, but it didn’t. Here in Finland we have very cold winters (-30C at worst) and the starter survived trough that winter and has been working well (when it cranks). I do have to admit though, that two weeks ago when the car didn’t start at all even after 20-40 attempts, I ordered a new OEM starter motor just because I wanted to rule it out as a possible culprit. But then with the help of a booster the car suddenly started. After this the car worked like before (with a few attempts the car would eventually start and some mornings even started first try).

With my understanding starter motors usually fail overnight or in a short time period. They also usually don’t fail like this even though it is possible.

This and the fact that there were other weird small electronic faults like the lights staying on after turning the car off made me believe that they were most likely connected. I have done ALOT of troubleshooting since I don’t want to take the car to a mechanic since they wouldn’t 100% sure find these kind of faults but would still charge me alot of money. I have also come to the conclusion that what K have going on here is very rare and I have yet come across someone with the same kind of problem.

[ace2050]

Originally Posted by gbalthrop

Hi Akseli,
I apologize for sounding like I was being accusatory in my first response. I was simply trying to get everyone on same page. You have the advantage over me, in that you are bi-lingual (at least ;-) Using Google Translate, I was able to get the gist of the Finnish in your ScreenPrint of your Scan Tool Fault Codes list. The Last Module shown was IHKA/ Climate Control. FRM lighting module was NOT shown.

If there are FRM Fault Codes (or any CAS Faults other than A0B4), please attach list of codes in FRM/CAS. See ISTA ScreenPrints, attached to NEXT Post, for your KR97149 VIN-7.

The S8 Light Switch is connected to the FRM Module. There is ONE connection (logically & electrically ;-) to the CAS Module that I am aware of:
CAS Module sends a Voltage Signal (KL15_x) to the FRM, presumably with Ignition ON (KL15 Active), via the Green/Yellow wire, from CAS Connector X13376/14 to FRM Connector. That voltage signal should ONLY be present with Ignition ON, AFAIK.

You didn't say if you had CA (Comfort Access), or NOT. That MIGHT make a difference as to the CAUSE of the issue, so please advise. Unless you state otherwise, I'll ASSume you do NOT have CA. The soft noise you hear for ~ 3 seconds after turning Parking Lights ON could be coming from EITHER the CAS Module, OR the FRM Module. Both are over the Driver Footwell, FRM more "Outboard" than CAS, on top-side of Footwell. If you remove Trim Panel over footwell you should be able to access either. Which one is the SOURCE of the sound you are hearing would be a CLUE.

Another approach would be to [...]

Hello George

No problem at all! It is also my bad for not translating those finnish descriptions of the fault codes, I didn’t even realize that the scan tool language was on Finnish. But I’m glad to hear you understood something from it.

I just got the scan tool back and read the fault codes again with a different option, if I remember correctly the option was for troubleshooting a no-start. There were ALOT of fault codes this time but I can see most of them are irrelevant since for example half of them are under the DSC/DXC -section which is a very sensitive unit and my fumbling with the electronics and battery have most likely launched these fault codes. That being said I won’t be listing ALL of the fault codes but the ones that could have anything to do with my problem.

Here are the fault codes:
- 9CCE (FRM: Battery Deep Discharge)
- 9C6C (IHKA: Supply, Switch Centre, Centre Console 12 V)
- A0B4 (CAS: Engine Start, Starter Operation)

There seems to be some fault codes relating to the FRM module and CAS module. I haven’t really done any further research regarding these fault codes since I just came home and scanned the fault cldes and have work tomorrow.

I don’t think I have comfort access so I think we can rule that out. I will open the drivers side trim panel and figure out which one of the two modules is emitting that strange sound.

I also thank you for giving me hope stating that I will solve this issue no matter what the cause is! I also made sure the brake light was lit up so that the car knows I’m pressing the brake pedal. I also made sure it recognizes that the gear is on P. So with that being said I think the CAS module being faulty is unlikely along with the fact that I can hear the starter solenoid CLICK. Of course I can’t jump into conclusions too quick.

I will perform the tests that you suggested me to do and I will report back the results! BIG thanks to you for providing me with all of this information I really appreciate it. You are a legend for helping people here in need and I feel very inspired by you!

Best regards
Akseli