[T Bone]

Before the internet and the current horsepower wars, the fabled Green Hell was the ultimate test road for any performance car. The fable 8 minute mark was almost mystical.....

SportAuto has long since use Nordschielfe as it should be, a regular driver seeing what a car can do. The handling and the time being used in the overall evaluation of the car.

Now Nordschielfe is used a marketing tool for car companies who want to impress. As with any benchmark, it can be taken advantage of. Cadillac, Nissan and soon Lexus using race drivers in ideal conditions set off to show their car's chops. Proving they have a good car. Throwing up videos onto Youtube in an effort to be cool and to use viral marketing techniques.

I just hope people actually test drive the cars they want to buy, and get unbiased informed opinions from places like SportAuto when they pick a car.....

Sorry for the rant but I just find the recent manufacturer's behaviour vulgar.

[amgthis]

I agree. It should be a place to make a vehicle better and for auto makers to be modest about their cars handling. Now, nring times is where people focus. The car should handle on its own, not the manufacturer telling people it handles and its fast around the ring. I don't really care about the times to be honest.

[swamp2]

Come on, anything in the world that takes any amount of skill will be attempted to be done the best it can and then that achievement will be attempted to be out done. As well, when it involves selling expensive stuff it WILL be used as marketing. The N'ring is no different. Anyone with half a ounce of gray matter will know there is a big difference between an ametuer, Horst and a factory ace in terms of their lap times, N'Ring or any track. I kind of actually like the idea of the time of the factory ace, as long as the car is in show room stock condition. Not all aces are equivalent but when they are really top notch they all tend to converge toward a limit time and that is THE BEST THE CAR is capable of, NOT the driver. If you have the time of the ace as well as, say, Horst's time you can get some feeling for how good you have to be to squeeze a fantastic time out of the car. The more data the better, period (IMHO). Those that are not aware of these obvious subtleties, can debate them endlessly on the interweb...

[ik999]

auto manufacturers are only responding to the what they see consumers interested in

what needs to be understood by car 'enthusiasts' is that numbers can't give a vivid representation of what a car FEELS like. If people could appreciate this, the manufacturers would focus on it

one of the reasons why I like Top Gear is that they talk about how the car drives, feels like, quirks, and what the practical aspects are. not just dwell on lap times and output specs

[ages944]

Originally Posted by T Bone

Before the internet and the current horsepower wars, the fabled Green Hell was the ultimate test road for any performance car. The fable 8 minute mark was almost mystical.....

SportAuto has long since use Nordschielfe as it should be, a regular driver seeing what a car can do. The handling and the time being used in the overall evaluation of the car.

Now Nordschielfe is used a marketing tool for car companies who want to impress. As with any benchmark, it can be taken advantage of. Cadillac, Nissan and soon Lexus using race drivers in ideal conditions set off to show their car's chops. Proving they have a good car. Throwing up videos onto Youtube in an effort to be cool and to use viral marketing techniques.

I just hope people actually test drive the cars they want to buy, and get unbiased informed opinions from places like SportAuto when they pick a car.....

Sorry for the rant but I just find the recent manufacturer's behaviour vulgar.

+1

10 years ago, Cadillac was making some of the softest boats money could buy. Now, you almost can't read an article about the CTS without someone from Cadillac stressing how the car was tested on the Nordschleife. Wow. Call me unimpressed.

[simp0man]

Forget the performance, how about how long can the damn thing run until the warranty expires? Not everyone of us goes to the tracks or drives the needle pointing to the end of the speedometer. Fun to drive and not worry in the end, I hope my bimmer will be like that after 50k....

[Year's_End]

Hey, at least GM has been using engineers and other non-race car drivers for their 'Ring tests. At least that's what we're told.

[Gearhead999s]

Originally Posted by Bimmer Loyalist

Hey, at least GM has been using engineers and other non-race car drivers for their 'Ring tests. At least that's what we're told.

John Heinricy is far from being an average General Motors engineer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Heinricy

[Year's_End]

Originally Posted by Gearhead999s

John Heinricy is far from being an average General Motors engineer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Heinricy

Haha, oh dayum I didn't know that.

[T Bone]

Originally Posted by Gearhead999s

John Heinricy is far from being an average General Motors engineer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Heinricy

Thank you....

Originally Posted by Bimmer Loyalist

Hey, at least GM has been using engineers and other non-race car drivers for their 'Ring tests. At least that's what we're told.

Heinracy was behind the 7:58 run. Versus journalists he is a rock star. In the recent article in Road and Track when the CTS-V + Heinracy was pitted against the M5 driven by Bill Auberlen, Heinracy and the CTS-V was very ordinary....

Originally Posted by swamp2

Come on, anything in the world that takes any amount of skill will be attempted to be done the best it can and then that achievement will be attempted to be out done. As well, when it involves selling expensive stuff it WILL be used as marketing. The N'ring is no different. Anyone with half a ounce of gray matter will know there is a big difference between an ametuer, Horst and a factory ace in terms of their lap times, N'Ring or any track. I kind of actually like the idea of the time of the factory ace, as long as the car is in show room stock condition. Not all aces are equivalent but when they are really top notch they all tend to converge toward a limit time and that is THE BEST THE CAR is capable of, NOT the driver. If you have the time of the ace as well as, say, Horst's time you can get some feeling for how good you have to be to squeeze a fantastic time out of the car. The more data the better, period (IMHO). Those that are not aware of these obvious subtleties, can debate them endlessly on the interweb...

If the standard is the best werks driver then that is fine. But you see the flaw in such a strategy for the OEMs? They would be pursuing the best time at the expense of road use, features....they would hand pick conditions etc.

On your comment about grey matter...I totally agree....but it seems we have a lot of people on the interweb including this forum that seem to believe that cars drive themselves.

Driver, road conditions are almost as important as the car but these things never get discussed. Oh the CTS-V is a sub 8 minute car.....etc etc.

[MisterSkiMask]

Originally Posted by T Bone

Before the internet and the current horsepower wars, the fabled Green Hell was the ultimate test road for any performance car. The fable 8 minute mark was almost mystical.....

SportAuto has long since use Nordschielfe as it should be, a regular driver seeing what a car can do. The handling and the time being used in the overall evaluation of the car.

Now Nordschielfe is used a marketing tool for car companies who want to impress. As with any benchmark, it can be taken advantage of. Cadillac, Nissan and soon Lexus using race drivers in ideal conditions set off to show their car's chops. Proving they have a good car. Throwing up videos onto Youtube in an effort to be cool and to use viral marketing techniques.

I just hope people actually test drive the cars they want to buy, and get unbiased informed opinions from places like SportAuto when they pick a car.....

Sorry for the rant but I just find the recent manufacturer's behaviour vulgar.

No, you are right, we should not do any more automotive testing. 0-60 feh!! 1/4 mile, means nothing. Lane change B.S. Skid pad worthless test.

With no testing and benchmarking we don't move forward. Look at the current crop of choices that we have, the consumers benefit. Let me guess you don't think people should keep score at little league either.

[T Bone]

Originally Posted by MisterSkiMask

No, you are right, we should not do any more automotive testing. 0-60 feh!! 1/4 mile, means nothing. Lane change B.S. Skid pad worthless test.

With no testing and benchmarking we don't move forward. Look at the current crop of choices that we have, the consumers benefit. Let me guess you don't think people should keep score at little league either.

No but thank you for taking it to the extreme....

1/4 is about the only good test out there these days, along with same driver / same day track times. 0-60 is stupid now because of the power of modern cars and the touchy reliance on traction. Gs same thing.

My point is more along the lines of the variability of a benchmark. Nordschliefe is so long and completely dependent on conditions / driver / traffic. Numbers generated in the cold months of February cannot be compared to July numbers. It is an obtuse marketing tool and we need to guard against it.

Also from a racing enthusiast standpoint, seeing GM / BMW / Nissan use Nordschliefe as a marketing tool is akin to seeing a 20 story high McDonald's banner on the Eiffel Tower, Tower Bridge, White House etc...

[MisterSkiMask]

Originally Posted by T Bone

No but thank you for taking it to the extreme....

1/4 is about the only good test out there these days, along with same driver / same day track times. 0-60 is stupid now because of the power of modern cars and the touchy reliance on traction. Gs same thing.

My point is more along the lines of the variability of a benchmark. Nordschliefe is so long and completely dependent on conditions / driver / traffic. Numbers generated in the cold months of February cannot be compared to July numbers. It is an obtuse marketing tool and we need to guard against it.

Also from a racing enthusiast standpoint, seeing GM / BMW / Nissan use Nordschliefe as a marketing tool is akin to seeing a 20 story high McDonald's banner on the Eiffel Tower, Tower Bridge, White House etc...

I definitely agree that there are far too many variables on the 'ring to really declare one car as absolute king. It really comes down to the right driver in the right car on the right day. There is an element of this in any testing but you can’t just stop testing because of it. I like the Shootouts that some of the big magazines do where manufacturers are invited to bring a car and a driver if they want to and they all compare together, but there are still variables, track temp and air temp changes throughout the day etc.

At the end of the day, I think the ends justify the means in this case. Cars are getting better and better, and we get some cool videos to watch.

[T Bone]

Originally Posted by MisterSkiMask

I definitely agree that there are far too many variables on the 'ring to really declare one car as absolute king. It really comes down to the right driver in the right car on the right day. There is an element of this in any testing but you can’t just stop testing because of it. I like the Shootouts that some of the big magazines do where manufacturers are invited to bring a car and a driver if they want to and they all compare together, but there are still variables, track temp and air temp changes throughout the day etc.

At the end of the day, I think the ends justify the means in this case. Cars are getting better and better, and we get some cool videos to watch.

[Year's_End]

Originally Posted by T Bone

No but thank you for taking it to the extreme....

1/4 is about the only good test out there these days, along with same driver / same day track times. 0-60 is stupid now because of the power of modern cars and the touchy reliance on traction. Gs same thing.

My point is more along the lines of the variability of a benchmark. Nordschliefe is so long and completely dependent on conditions / driver / traffic. Numbers generated in the cold months of February cannot be compared to July numbers. It is an obtuse marketing tool and we need to guard against it.

Also from a racing enthusiast standpoint, seeing GM / BMW / Nissan use Nordschliefe as a marketing tool is akin to seeing a 20 story high McDonald's banner on the Eiffel Tower, Tower Bridge, White House etc...

Agreed 100%.