[kenneth]

Originally Posted by Nick Nazareno

I'm not sure what other posters are talking about with doing heel-toe 'as you turn'......
good luck!

Originally Posted by oddjob2021

Once you have mastred the footwork try to do it as you turn. It's much more arduous but once you have it down its a really helpful tool in racing.

Nick, got some info from my shop mechanic, who happens to be one of the top racers in Canada. He didn't get into details, but he mentioned that there is an advanced technique which uses heel/toe to rotate the car......

So perhaps that's what oddjob was talking about.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by kenneth

Nick, got some info from my shop mechanic, who happens to be one of the top racers in Canada. He didn't get into details, but he mentioned that there is an advanced technique which uses heel/toe to rotate the car......

So perhaps that's what oddjob was talking about.

I wouldn't call it an advanced technique, but pooching a high rpm downshift mid corner by incorrectly heel/toe will definitely bring about big rotation

in all seriousness..

Kenneth I meant " I'm not sure what other posters are talking about with doing heel-toe 'as you turn'.. " to be a rhetorical statement

the rest of my post explained why

"IMHO the whole point of H/T is to complete the downshifting during straight line braking. I personally don't like changing gears mid corner. It is just asking for trouble if you pooch the shift"

If you can get more details from your mechanic I would love to hear about it. His explanation could very well be one many reasons of why he is one of the top racers in Canada and I am a weekend hack who pays to go to DEs

[kenneth]

Originally Posted by Nick Nazareno

I wouldn't call it an advanced technique, but pooching a high rpm downshift mid corner by incorrectly heel/toe will definitely bring about big rotation

in all seriousness..

Kenneth I meant " I'm not sure what other posters are talking about with doing heel-toe 'as you turn'.. " to be a rhetorical statement

the rest of my post explained why

"IMHO the whole point of H/T is to complete the downshifting during straight line braking. I personally don't like changing gears mid corner. It is just asking for trouble if you pooch the shift"

If you can get more details from your mechanic I would love to hear about it. His explanation could very well be one many reasons of why he is one of the top racers in Canada and I am a weekend hack who pays to go to DEs

I am not sure if you are being serious here or sarcastic, LOL. But, I will ask him next time. He is also an instructor with various clubs, including BMWCCA.

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by kenneth

I am not sure if you are being serious here or sarcastic, LOL. But, I will ask him next time. He is also an instructor with various clubs, including BMWCCA.

Dead serious, I'd love to hear the tech behind your mechanic's statement.

[kenneth]

Ok Nick that's cool. Will let you know what I find

[ni8shadow]

I have mostly read shifting down one gear ie 4th-3rd. Can you heel/toe from, lets say, 4th-2nd? Would you need to blip the throttle to increase revs by 2000?

[kenneth]

Originally Posted by ni8shadow

I have mostly read shifting down one gear ie 4th-3rd. Can you heel/toe from, lets say, 4th-2nd? Would you need to blip the throttle to increase revs by 2000?

The experts can chime in, but I believe it's better to do it in 2 steps.4-3 then 3-2

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by ni8shadow

I have mostly read shifting down one gear ie 4th-3rd. Can you heel/toe from, lets say, 4th-2nd? Would you need to blip the throttle to increase revs by 2000?

Yes you can go 4th to 2nd with one really big blip. seems like it is 'best practice' to blip move the shifter to 3rd, blip again move the shifter to 2nd then let the clutch out.

either way works.. just get it into gear and make sure the revs are matched correctly when you let the clutch out

[ni8shadow]

Sometimes when I blip and go from 3rd -2nd....the car won't "let me" put it into 2nd gear? What happened there?

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by ni8shadow

Sometimes when I blip and go from 3rd -2nd....the car won't "let me" put it into 2nd gear? What happened there?

My thinking is that you either pulled the shifter too far over and got it into the reverse portion of the shift pattern or you are way off with your rev match and the syncros just aren't able to make up the difference (either way too much or way too little blip)

[satakal]

I'm pretty sure the answer is "do whatever works" but I have a question. Over the weekend one of my instructors suggest only one down shift from 5 to 2. Instead of 5 4 3 2. Does it matter? Is it a good habit or a bad habit to hit them all on the way down? Is mechanical wear on non-wear components really an issue? To put this incontext, we were in the middle of working on braking as squeeze then push when he made the shifting suggestion.

Edit: just for fun... 5:05 and 6:10
http://satakal.blip.tv/file/1311959/

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by satakal

I'm pretty sure the answer is "do whatever works"

+1

FWIW, on my motorcycle I go through each gear because things happen so fast with the sequential shifter i want to have a very low risk/repeatable process in place.

I don't want to think... ok i moved my foot 3 times to get into 2, now I can release the clutch.. i just want to be 4 3 2 knee down roll on throttle

I go through em all in the car just cuz that's what i'm used to

[ni8shadow]

Is it brake/clutch, shift, blip or brake/clutch, blip, shift?

Originally Posted by Nick Nazareno

My thinking is that you either pulled the shifter too far over and got it into the reverse portion of the shift pattern or you are way off with your rev match and the syncros just aren't able to make up the difference (either way too much or way too little blip)

[nicknaz]

Originally Posted by ni8shadow

Is it brake/clutch, shift, blip or brake/clutch, blip, shift?

you have to blip the throttle before you move the shift lever, or else you are asking the synchro to make up for a big increase in engine speed (when the synchro can't do it, that's when the gear box won't "let you get into gear") (if you keep trying to apply a lot of pressure to get it into the gear it isn't good for the synchros. if you rev match properly (minimal use of the synchros) the shifter will go into the gear very easily with minimal pressure... if you have to use a lot of pressure you are doing something wrong....)

[T Bone]

Originally Posted by kenneth

Hi guys,

Need some advice from those who Heel/Toe! I have only 3 HPDE track days under the belt, and will be doing a 2 day event at the end of the month. At my last event, my instructor mentioned that it's time I learned to Heel/Toe as I was carrying lots of speed. He also mentioned that I was a naturally smooth and fast driver and that I just need seat time to improve.

I have been trying to practice Heel/Toe on the street, but find that without the speed (revs) it's awkward to do that. Any tips would surely help. I am thinking I could use a couple of sessions at the next HPDE event to practice this, without going full out. Is this a good idea?

You can definitely practice on the streets but you also need to practice at the track....

What you won't get from the street is how deep you push in the brake pedal to stop. This affects how you can use another part of your foot to blip the throttle.

What track are you doing your driver's ed events?

[kenneth]

Originally Posted by T Bone

You can definitely practice on the streets but you also need to practice at the track....

What you won't get from the street is how deep you push in the brake pedal to stop. This affects how you can use another part of your foot to blip the throttle.

What track are you doing your driver's ed events?

I attended the North East Audi Chapter event at Le Circuit Mont-Tremblant (Québec, Canada), one of the best track in the Eastern region this past week-end. Apparently it is similar to Watkins Glenn (New York). It has nice elevation changes, blind corners, esses, fast curves and a few straights, throw-away and a few off camber corners. It was my second time there.

This was my third event and I was running the Yellow group, which was pretty fast actually with many powerful cars (M3, M5, Corvette, S4, Subaru STIs, Tuned Vw Golfs, Saab). So I did not heel/toe. I'll have all winter to practice and I'll do it on track next year. No hurry!

Whereabouts are you from, have you been to Mont-Tremblant?

[T Bone]

Originally Posted by kenneth

I attended the North East Audi Chapter event at Le Circuit Mont-Tremblant (Québec, Canada), one of the best track in the Eastern region this past week-end. Apparently it is similar to Watkins Glenn (New York). It has nice elevation changes, blind corners, esses, fast curves and a few straights, throw-away and a few off camber corners. It was my second time there.

This was my third event and I was running the Yellow group, which was pretty fast actually with many powerful cars (M3, M5, Corvette, S4, Subaru STIs, Tuned Vw Golfs, Saab). So I did not heel/toe. I'll have all winter to practice and I'll do it on track next year. No hurry!

Whereabouts are you from, have you been to Mont-Tremblant?

Mosport, Shannonville and Watkins Glen usually. Although, I have acquired a taste for VIR.

EDIT: Drove Mont-Tremblant once....lovely track.

[ni8shadow]

Think i WAS pulling the lever too far to the left and ended up in "reverse land." Worked better this morning. Still get some sync action though. I always hesitate a little to let out the clutch so when I do, the revs drop a little.

[kenneth]

Originally Posted by ni8shadow

Think i WAS pulling the lever too far to the left and ended up in "reverse land." Worked better this morning. Still get some sync action though. I always hesitate a little to let out the clutch so when I do, the revs drop a little.

I hear you, I am also at stage of not releasing the clutch fast enough! I Will need to practice until it becomes natural.

[ni8shadow]

Does anyone actually use your heel and toe? I use the 3 and 2 toe combo, but I watched the "Drift Bible" and Tsuchia actually DOES use the heel and toe Did he have to do extreme yoga for that?

[kenneth]

Originally Posted by ni8shadow

Does anyone actually use your heel and toe? I use the 3 and 2 toe combo, but I watched the "Drift Bible" and Tsuchia actually DOES use the heel and toe Did he have to do extreme yoga for that?

heel and toe is a misnomer! I think you got it right....