[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by Sparky66

I tend to disagree with you due to the fact that no other car I have ever owned has been software upgraded by the manufacturer anywhere near the level as what BMW is bombarding us with.

Fact 1: I cringe at the thought of sending away my + $3000usd ECU and it gets lost in transit. What happens then?

Fact 2: Try telling anyone that's not local or god forbid "Your Wife" that the $125k aud car is undrivable and won't be an issue to drive for 2 weeks because you had to send away the ECU so it can be re-flashed. So if BMW upgrade my software 5 times (sometimes as much as 3 times per year) I will be shipping my ECU to ESS for re-flash 5 times.
To me it's not VIABLE and totally unworkable. Hey, we don't all live next door to ESS-

Fact 3: I have owned previous Turbo'd cars and your right, that's the way it has been done for the last 2 decades, but it's 2009 and your average joe blow is now a lot smarter and more mobile.

Fact 4: Many enterprising Flash tuning companies are now starting to offer programmable controllers for self programming.

Those are some good points. I think flashes are great but there is no way on earth i am pulling my ECU and sending it away. What about the people who only have one car? They take a bus for 1-2 weeks? The wife bit is funny but soooooooo true

Its really to bad the Shark Injector vaporized into nothing....

Mike

[MontegoE92]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

Those are some good points. I think flashes are great but there is no way on earth i am pulling my ECU and sending it away. What about the people who only have one car? They take a bus for 1-2 weeks? The wife bit is funny but soooooooo true

Its really to bad the Shark Injector vaporized into nothing....

Mike

IMHO, you guys are making a really big deal out of shipping the DME. You think you will be without your DME for 1-2 weeks?! They do have next day air shipping, not sure if you know that. Therefore it only takes 3 days total to get the DME back. Are you willing to deal with 3 days to have a great tune? As Todd mentioned this is only until ESS comes up with a convenient and cost effective way of sending cables to the customer.

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by MontegoE92

Are you willing to deal with 3 days to have a great tune?

Heck, I shipped out a throttle body, it was bored out and a new throttle plate installed and back to me in two days.

[Former_Boosted_IS]

Originally Posted by MontegoE92

IMHO, you guys are making a really big deal out of shipping the DME. You think you will be without your DME for 1-2 weeks?! They do have next day air shipping, not sure if you know that. Therefore it only takes 3 days total to get the DME back. Are you willing to deal with 3 days to have a great tune? As Todd mentioned this is only until ESS comes up with a convenient and cost effective way of sending cables to the customer.

I think your probably missing out on the point. Most do not want to take the DME out of the car because of a lot of fears. What if it gets scratched, scuffed, etc. during shipping. Damaged? The risk/reward is just not worth it to so many of us. Plus, you have to do this every time your car goes to the dealer?

[MontegoE92]

Originally Posted by Former_Boosted_IS

I think your probably missing out on the point. Most do not want to take the DME out of the car because of a lot of fears. What if it gets scratched, scuffed, etc. during shipping. Damaged? The risk/reward is just not worth it to so many of us. Plus, you have to do this every time your car goes to the dealer?

I understand your fears/concerns. It is as simple as packaging the DME so that it won't get damaged (scratched, scuffed...) and shipping it to the correct address. Why would you have to ship it in everytime you go to the dealer??? I have been to the dealer two times since my ESS flash and have NOT had an issue. I had the radio replaced (rattle) and the 1st oil change done. If the car does not have a critical failure (i.e. engine components, turbos, etc.) the dealership will NOT re-flash your software. Simple as that.

People are comfortable with tearing through the DME wiring to install a piggyback but are not comfortable with shipping it? I'm not following.

[Sniz]

Originally Posted by MontegoE92

People are comfortable with tearing through the DME wiring to install a piggyback but are not comfortable with shipping it? I'm not following.

you apparently have not shipped a lot of things in your life. You stand a good chance that your package will be thrown, kicked, punted, sumo slammed, DDT'd, etc by the people at the sorting facilities. Believe me. They give 2 shits about your packages and are always looking for ways to entertain themselves or just speed up their assembly lines....ie throwing your packages.

A good friend is a manager at a FedEx facility nearby, he warned me about shipping items that can be damaged.

[Garissimo]

Originally Posted by Sparky66

How does this make a flash "scare the crap out of me" ??
Correct me if I am wrong but it's exactly what I would hope I could achieve - Total and utter Transparency"

"If I were BMW" this would scare the crap out of me. Enthusiasts like you would see it as the holy grail

I wish Jim C. were still posting because he knows this reflash stuff inside out and upside down. Not sure what happened to his "shark tuner" flash solution?

[MontegoE92]

Originally Posted by Sniz

you apparently have not shipped a lot of things in your life. You stand a good chance that your package will be thrown, kicked, punted, sumo slammed, DDT'd, etc by the people at the sorting facilities.

>>

Originally Posted by MontegoE92

It is as simple as packaging the DME so that it won't get damaged (scratched, scuffed...)

[BavarianBullet]

Originally Posted by mwahlert

oh - so its a privilege to buy a product and use it - and not be 100% satisfied? hell there are things i don't like about the car - i guess i should thank bmw for letting me own one.

Ok, I was over the top on this one and half-joking though it might not have seemed that way. The _____ of you singing the praises of flashes, not even having one because its too much of a hassle and then running a PB which you say is so bad was simply to much for me to bear after a long day at work.

Originally Posted by mwahlert

its called throttle modulation.....i made out just fine the past two storms we had - and i'm running around on 265's out back (general exclaim uhps)

Right, I guess you could tell yourself that and drive in the snow. I wouldn't and I have AWD. Dealer visits etc.

Originally Posted by mwahlert

such as?

The proceed has numerous adjustable settings but you have to switch maps to change them. On the fly, but not quite individually adjustable as you have to swap the whole map as I understand it (not a proceed owner).

Originally Posted by mwahlert

reason why i am using a pb and not a ess flash at the moment - if there was a cobb "accessport" or some other method of being able to swap tunes at home - pb would be for sale in a heartbeat.

From what I can gather, I think a lot of the people who run PBs would join you if Cobb or someone came out with a sharkedit style home (re)programmer. I don't see anything wrong with wanting a flash nor your point that a home (re)programmer would make it a lot more attractive than currently.

I think the point that you may not be getting is that a lot of people (myself included) actually agree with you that a flash is very cool and a welcome addition to the pile of BMW tuning products- but only if it meets certain conditions (eg not having to mail the ECU around).

You and MarvelPhx arguing for the ess flash and saying PBs don't stand a chance etc is ridiculous. That's the point most people are getting on you about. It's the complete polarization and totality with which you're praising the flash and bashing the established successful PBs with very limited (dyno) evidence that has earned people's ire.

My 2c is a flash is a great idea when it matures, lowers in price and can be home programmed. About the only potential quantifiable advantage it really has over a PB is power production. Given the majority of tunes on this forum are PBs and drag racing timeslips tend to be the primary yardstick by which they are measured, MarvelPhx and anyone else with a mean flash tune needs to get to the 1/4mi track and report some numbers if they want impress people here. (for best results, please keep the interior of the car intact)

BB

[sflgator]

Originally Posted by BavarianBullet

From what I can gather, I think a lot of the people who run PBs would join you if Cobb or someone came out with a sharkedit style home (re)programmer. I don't see anything wrong with wanting a flash nor your point that a home (re)programmer would make it a lot more attractive than currently.

I think the point that you may not be getting is that a lot of people (myself included) actually agree with you that a flash is very cool and a welcome addition to the pile of BMW tuning products- but only if it meets certain conditions (eg not having to mail the ECU around).

You and MarvelPhx arguing for the ess flash and saying PBs don't stand a chance etc is ridiculous. That's the point most people are getting on you about. It's the complete polarization and totality with which you're praising the flash and bashing the established successful PBs with very limited (dyno) evidence that has earned people's ire.

My 2c is a flash is a great idea when it matures, lowers in price and can be home programmed. About the only potential quantifiable advantage it really has over a PB is power production. Given the majority of tunes on this forum are PBs and drag racing timeslips tend to be the primary yardstick by which they are measured, MarvelPhx and anyone else with a mean flash tune needs to get to the 1/4mi track and report some numbers if they want impress people here. (for best results, please keep the interior of the car intact)

BB

+1. That's what I've been saying, but MarvelPhx just doesn't want to hear it. I know a lot of us would give him and the ESS ECU Flash major props if he could run a great 1/4mi. ET and Trap (especially trap ).

[Tobias1980]

Originally Posted by Sniz

you apparently have not shipped a lot of things in your life. You stand a good chance that your package will be thrown, kicked, punted, sumo slammed, DDT'd, etc by the people at the sorting facilities. Believe me. They give 2 shits about your packages and are always looking for ways to entertain themselves or just speed up their assembly lines....ie throwing your packages.

A good friend is a manager at a FedEx facility nearby, he warned me about shipping items that can be damaged.

What can not be damaged according to your friend?


A good friend is a manager at a McD facility nearby, he warned me about eating items that can make me fat.

[sales@ESSTuning]

This one will be fun!

Originally Posted by Ilma

That's how it USED to be done.

APR REVO and other tuners offer drive-in OBDII flashes via laptop throughout extensive franchise networks in most major cities.

That has become the competitive standard now and is why so many are balking at tearing out their ECU's and shipping them off.

That's just old now.

But as many have stated....as soon as flashing is offered via laptop for this platform, it will probably take right off.

And where in APR's or Revo's lineup is BMW, oh wait, its NOT...

Competitive standard would mean they have to be in the same market. Tuning a Audi, VW, or Porsche is child's play compared to the BMW. Not even close. Heck, Porsche practically does their DMEs to be made to be tuned.

Originally Posted by Sparky66

I tend to disagree with you due to the fact that no other car I have ever owned has been software upgraded by the manufacturer anywhere near the level as what BMW is bombarding us with.

Fact 1: I cringe at the thought of sending away my + $3000usd ECU and it gets lost in transit. What happens then?

Fact 2: Try telling anyone that's not local or god forbid "Your Wife" that the $125k aud car is undrivable and won't be an issue to drive for 2 weeks because you had to send away the ECU so it can be re-flashed. So if BMW upgrade my software 5 times (sometimes as much as 3 times per year) I will be shipping my ECU to ESS for re-flash 5 times.
To me it's not VIABLE and totally unworkable. Hey, we don't all live next door to ESS-

Fact 3: I have owned previous Turbo'd cars and your right, that's the way it has been done for the last 2 decades, but it's 2009 and your average joe blow is now a lot smarter and more mobile.

Fact 4: Many enterprising Flash tuning companies are now starting to offer programmable controllers for self programming.

Counter-Fact 1: I asked about this: In the tens thousands of flashes that ESS has done, they have had 3 (yes THREE) misplaced in shipping (and they showed up later anyway). And what did ESS do? They got another new DME, flashed it, and sent it out the next day. Where's the issue?

Counter-Fact 2: BMW no longer flashes the DME whenever the car comes in. New SIBs state that BMW can only flash the DME upon a DME or emission-related failure. So getting it flashed because your wipers quit is just not gonna happen. Besides, when you get a ESS Flash, you automatically get the latest ProgMan version included (and ESS being in Europe gets the new TIS versions long before the US does).

Counter-Fact 3: Your personal knowledge and/or mobility has little to do with the fact that the Seimens MSD80 is vastly more advanced than anything you have previously owned, especially if it was Japanese. And with that comes the complexity of being able to read, write, and tune it correctly. So, over the last two decades, times have changed sure, but so have the DMEs.

Counter-Fact 4: At this time, there is no portable flash solution for the 335. Not sure who your enterprising tuners are.

Originally Posted by OZ!MSport

2 years ago I was considering getting an ESS Twin Screw Supercharger for my 2005 325... back then ESS told me I could order a cable that allowed me to upload the ESS software to my DME...

My Question back in late 2006:

"I live in Australia and will naturally require my DME to be programmed remotely. I noticed on the forum that you can provide an extra cable that will allow this.
Can you please tell me what is involved and how much extra this cable is?"

ESS response:

"The ESS direct reprogramming interface is USD 99 and allows you to upload the ESS TS2 325 software to the ECU yourself."

Granted the DME on a 2005 325 is different to the 335 but I'm hoping this means ESS will come through with the goods.

MarvelPhx - you had a Twin Screw on your 330 didn't you? Did you need to pull out the DME to flash it?

Refer to #3 above. The MS43/45 DMEs you refer to are 1/3 the DME of the MSD80. You could program the MS43s through that supplied OBD cable and CarTunes. This is far from the case now with K-Line, DCAN, and the 1024-bit checksums. MS43 was 256 bit and MS45 was 512 bit. You can crack those with programs freely on the Internet. Try it with 1024 RSA and good luck.

My 01 330i Vortech SC got the software through OBD. My 04 ZHP Lysholm TS went for flashing. My E36 M3 went for flashing. My E92 335i went for flashing.




I guess my wonderment comes from the fact that piggybacks only exist in the x35 world... not E46s, not E9x M3s, not new M5, not new M6, not the new Z4M Coupe, nothing else prior. Everyone gets flashes and thats the standard. So why the x35 community has such a resentment to the best tuning possible with a flash is beyond me. Because you have to ship the DME? Seriously? You'd rather pull apart the wiring harness... Seriously? Im lost.

[sales@ESSTuning]

Originally Posted by sflgator

+1. That's what I've been saying, but MarvelPhx just doesn't want to hear it. I know a lot of us would give him and the ESS ECU Flash major props if he could run a great 1/4mi. ET and Trap (especially trap ).

And if I run a 11.5 at 120mph, what would you say? lol

[dlbrooks18]

what about running a flash with a custom piggyback?... i read a thread about a dinan stage 2 flash working perfectly with a hacked up JB2, in which the JBX only raised the boost (Terry worked on the car personally and did all the datalogging himself).. seems like the best of both worlds.. think about it, Dinan puts countless hours into R&D and has a great flash; with improved performance, drivability, speed limiter removed and overall response etc.. only problem is that boost drops off big-time in the higher range to limit the risk.. IMO thus they are able to offer you a warranty because they are not pushing the N54 anywhere near it's limits, they tease you with the power which feels great then yank it away quickly before you can really let loose or do any damage to the turbos/engine.. and BMW could have very easily produced our cars in stock form with performance that matches or exceeds the Dinan flashes if they wanted to, but there is that other car .. the M3 of course that you'll pay $15-20K more for that kinda performance. so that was not going to happen.. so even if our cars came stock with the kind of gains a flash nets, we would still be tuning the car and installing piggybacks for more performance gains.. just my 2 cents..

[dlbrooks18]

... but I would think that ultimately a flash cannot be beat if it's tuned aggressive enough..

[sflgator]

Originally Posted by MarvelPhx

And if I run a 11.5 at 120mph, what would you say? lol

After seeing your true timeslip posted on DragTimes.com, I would say "wow, congrats!!!" Then, everyone (myself included) would want to know about EVERY MOD you had to run that time and trap. Having said that, what is sooooooooooooo wrong with having a fun night at your local 1/4mi. track, running your car with all your listed mods + either race gas or pump gas and posting your timeslip? Are you really that person who just cannot be truthful and run with what you've got and post your true ET and Trap Speed without lying about some "other" mod or photoshopping your timeslip (or posting someone else's timeslip)?

I think you might be surprised when you get a very decent ET and Trap Speed for your mods and dyno; maybe not 11.5 sec. @ 120mph unless you have upgraded turbos and/or NOS, but nonetheless, I think you'll run mid 12's. It's up to you, buddy...having better dyno numbers mean absolutely nothing if you can't produce better times at the track.

[kptaylor]

I don't think anyone's saying our DME's are not more complicated than the VAG or Porsche DME's. Sure someone has to spend more time cracking it, but it looks like ESS, Dinan, Noelle and a few others have.

The main argument is around ESS's availability and dealer network. Like Noelle, the flash may be great, but you have to ship your DME. With APR, Revo, GIAC there is an extensive network of authorized dealers, so rather than shipping the DME, you can just hop in the car and drive a few hours at most.

Oh, and shipping the DME also means you have to get into the ECU bin and rip apart the wiring harness, just like the PnP PB's.

I got a PB because it was really the only game in town. I couldn't go over to EvoMS and get flashed at the time, APR, Revo & GIAC weren't (and still aren't) players and ESS hadn't brought their flash to market. Is it the best or is it damaging my engine? We'll get more hard data on that as scalbert continues with his testing.

[Sparky66]

Originally Posted by MarvelPhx

And if I run a 11.5 at 120mph, what would you say? lol

What if I strap on 2 x 45,000 pound thrust rockets to my car - will I make it to the Moon.
Bragging with "what ifs" will hold no water on this site. Prove it by running a time (heck even employ the services of a member here called Hotrod or hint.. hint.....Shiv)and we will all bow to you and your almighty tune.
Now don't make me eat my words

On thread topic:

Things will change in favour of a Flash Tune....no doubt, but have a bit of common decency to acknowledge what Shiv(Procede) and Terry(BMS) have put to market before any other tuner got of their arses. They should be congratulated and applauded for what they are achieving within the limitations and realm of a piggyback system. I don't think there is any other flash or tune that I know of, that is as aggressively developed and continually refined without the huge R&D cost associated. Competition breeds development at competitive price to boot. (Always remember what relative little price we are paying for what we are getting). So far every Flash tune for the 335 has been way over priced for the gains achieved. No offence but most guys here are looking for a reliable, safe, smooth tune that will rip out their eye sockets and mash them to the back of their skull......how it's achieved and with what type of tune (flash or piggy)- most don't give a toss.

Having Terry(n54tech.com) and Shiv(e90post) on these forums has help them forge a buyer relationship and develop a more complete, appealing tune with fault finding at call forum response for the 335 enthusiast that were lucky enough to find this site. Ask yourself.... how many flash tuners do I see right now and continually for the past 3 years on these forums and developing their product and relationship or have parity with what I'm describing above??

No doubt Piggy's have as many negatives as positives but so do Flash tunes. I'm sure there are things that would also be harder to implement within the confines of a flash tuned MSD80/81, as more and more performance hardware is added to this car (aftermarket Turbo's, Meth. Injection, etc....)

This car has been out since 2006. It's now 2009........where are all the flash tuners with similar or more HP/TQ..........my guess is they won't invest any further R&D for the 335 market as they have acheived their market share and projected outcome on this platform.

Selling a Flash's virtues here is the equivalent of someone selling bread to a baker................we don't need it to be rammed down our throats. We heard you the First time.

Turning up PA as I face your ear : WE KNOW IT HAS POTENTIAL AND IS THE ONLY REAL WAY TO FULLY EXPLOIT A TUNE..................BUT WHERE THE HECK ARE THEY RIGHT THIS MINUTE????.

Did I speak too loudly or too fast ?

Please let me know, as I'm sure you will, with a comprehensive rebuttal.

[mwahlert]

Originally Posted by Sparky66

Every thread I read about a piggy tune, you seem to weasal your way in and bestow us with a Flash v Piggy debate and why it will crap all over it.

no - thats me

[Sparky66]

Duly noted I'm mixing you two up

Removed out of courtesy.