[Ant Man]

of enjoying fast cars and bikes, the ability to modify them and enjoy the freedom of driving before average speed cameras, mandatory vehicle monitoring devices and electric cars take over and petrol / diesels are no more?

We already know that the Transport Minister wants to make speeding as anti-social as drink driving so that resistance (to rolling out full road network cameras and monitoring) will be reduced and the Government can start raking in money to pay off the massive debt incurred over the last 10 years of Labour incompetence!

I'm inclined to believe there are maybe 5, perhaps 10 years top, to enjoy what we enjoy now, before we face massive restrictions on our driving habits.
Now is the time to drive fast cars / bikes before it's too late.

Anyone have any views on my train of thought?

[beemerbird]

I can see where you're coming from and whilst currently where I live there are very, very few cameras apart from in the City, many other places in Yorkshire have plenty of those friggin yellow boxes at the side of the road. Apart from being an easy way for the Government to 'raise money' by screwing the motorist, it amuses me that on many of our pot holed, ill kept highways there is so much bloody traffic it's hard to speed anyhow ffs!

I agree speeding in built up areas is a common sense no, no but it's all being taken too far.

So yes, get a fast car now and enjoy it - oh I have (am old though).

[Delta0311]

Originally Posted by Ant Man

of enjoying fast cars and bikes, the ability to modify them and enjoy the freedom of driving before average speed cameras, mandatory vehicle monitoring devices and electric cars take over and petrol / diesels are no more?

We already know that the Transport Minister wants to make speeding as anti-social as drink driving so that resistance (to rolling out full road network cameras and monitoring) will be reduced and the Government can start raking in money to pay off the massive debt incurred over the last 10 years of Labour incompetence!

I'm inclined to believe there are maybe 5, perhaps 10 years top, to enjoy what we enjoy now, before we face massive restrictions on our driving habits.
Now is the time to drive fast cars / bikes before it's too late.

Anyone have a views on my train of thought?

Let me guess you must live ine the UK or the Communist Republic of England? Yeah Labor really fucked the place up. I heard about the vehicle monitoring devices over here in the US too but let them try and put that in my baby and you'll see how quickly my guns come out. Got thing about the US is that if shit hits the fan we will still have a shit load of fire power to protect us for our "elected" assholes.

[dxb335d]

While they may be scamera boxes, you can still nail it between them.

WIth in car recorders speeding will be a big no no.

[Porscha!]

They won't put in car recorders in cars Anyway if they do it'll only be the new cars that are effected like taxing on CO2s or even taxing at all.

We have next to no speed cameras round my way and great roads, not worried about this at all, maybe it is an issue in other parts of the country if so can't you speak to your MP or something??

[SoYank]

Originally Posted by beemerbird

(am old though).

From someone who is, you aren't.

Originally Posted by Porscha!

... can't you speak to your MP or something??

A brick wall is "something"; the results will be the same

It doesn't matter what country you're in, either.

[Zk1]

Originally Posted by Ant Man

of enjoying fast cars and bikes, the ability to modify them and enjoy the freedom of driving before average speed cameras, mandatory vehicle monitoring devices and electric cars take over and petrol / diesels are no more?

We already know that the Transport Minister wants to make speeding as anti-social as drink driving so that resistance (to rolling out full road network cameras and monitoring) will be reduced and the Government can start raking in money to pay off the massive debt incurred over the last 10 years of Labour incompetence!

I'm inclined to believe there are maybe 5, perhaps 10 years top, to enjoy what we enjoy now, before we face massive restrictions on our driving habits.
Now is the time to drive fast cars / bikes before it's too late.

Anyone have any views on my train of thought?

public servant has now changed in meaning with this government to extort and self serve interests. The GOV was never our friend, everything these days is how much can we make from joe publics wallet.

I used to work as an IT contractor for a nameless local council.
Even though they negelected all IT systems badly, then penalty based systems , camera fines databases and others were state of the art.
They even had their own programmers and support on site. and They got first dibbs on dept budget and had their own.

Now is deffo the time to drive fast.

[NFS]

Originally Posted by Ant Man

of enjoying fast cars and bikes, the ability to modify them and enjoy the freedom of driving before average speed cameras, mandatory vehicle monitoring devices and electric cars take over and petrol / diesels are no more?

We already know that the Transport Minister wants to make speeding as anti-social as drink driving so that resistance (to rolling out full road network cameras and monitoring) will be reduced and the Government can start raking in money to pay off the massive debt incurred over the last 10 years of Labour incompetence!

I'm inclined to believe there are maybe 5, perhaps 10 years top, to enjoy what we enjoy now, before we face massive restrictions on our driving habits.
Now is the time to drive fast cars / bikes before it's too late.

Anyone have any views on my train of thought?

Electric cars won't take over any time soon. The technology is totally flawed and ultimately it's just carbon displacement rather than carbon saving (i.e. emissions are at the power station rather than at the roadside).

I do believe that we are seeing the deathknell of petrol engined cars though.

Within 5-10 years we will see widespread use of hydrogen fuel cell vehicles. I think we will also see black box vehicle monitoring and potentially automatic speed limiting.

Society has become a massive inefficient machine that restricts individual freedoms for the sake of the absolute lowest common denominator.

We are being prevented from doing anything remotely dangerous (or fun) because we have begun to develop a system in which no one is allowed to die of anything ever.

[-=TSL=-]

The motorist is already taxed like shit; fuel, tax discs, ConCharge, etc...

Why would the g'ovt eliminate a large source of income by substituting petrol and diesel for electricity?
This is the exact problem with labour, stupid unthought policies that hold no water when it comes to this country's future. Then once they see what they've done they try and implement some bowlacks policy to quickly raise some short-term income!
This year's Budget is littered with such!

Can someone make them understand that without the fuel guzzling motorist, they might as well kiss goodbye to ever being able to rid themselves of their >£1t debt and ever being considered a dominant nation.

Digusting

[beemerbird]

Originally Posted by -=TSL=-

Can someone make them understand that without the fuel guzzling motorist, they might as well kiss goodbye to ever being able to rid themselves of their >£1t debt and ever being considered a dominant nation.

Digusting

Wise words mate.

[lolololol]

Originally Posted by Ant Man

We already know that the Transport Minister wants to make speeding as anti-social as drink driving so that resistance (to rolling out full road network cameras and monitoring) will be reduced and the Government can start raking in money to pay off the massive debt incurred over the last 10 years of Labour incompetence!


Anyone have any views on my train of thought?

My views were similar to yours until I went on a Speed awareness course. I went on the belief that I wanted to avoid the 3 points I had been given by going on this course. My views have changed since particularly with the view that cameras are a way of scaming us for money. Some facts I learnt on the course:

Did you know that there are 300+ cameras in Berks but only 22 are 'live' at any one time. If they wanted to scam us then they would all be live wouldn't they ?

Have you noticed that there are some cameras outside schools and some are not ? The reason for the selection of placement of cameras is primarily due to a fatality happening at that point.

Have you also noticed that at some sharp corners there are extra warnings and LED signs that flash if you are going to fast, again this is due to a fatality at that area.

These are just some of the facts that I picked up on the course so to think that cameras are just a money making exercise (as I did) is very short sighted IMO.

It certainly was an eye opener for me anyway !

[NFS]

Originally Posted by omaragha

My views were similar to yours until I went on a Speed awareness course. I went on the belief that I wanted to avoid the 3 points I had been given by going on this course. My views have changed since particularly with the view that cameras are a way of scaming us for money. Some facts I learnt on the course:

Did you know that there are 300+ cameras in Berks but only 22 are 'live' at any one time. If they wanted to scam us then they would all be live wouldn't they ?

Have you noticed that there are some cameras outside schools and some are not ? The reason for the selection of placement of cameras is primarily due to a fatality happening at that point.

Have you also noticed that at some sharp corners there are extra warnings and LED signs that flash if you are going to fast, again this is due to a fatality at that area.

These are just some of the facts that I picked up on the course so to think that cameras are just a money making exercise (as I did) is very short sighted IMO.

It certainly was an eye opener for me anyway !

SCP guidelines usually place cameras at accident blackspot locations, but it doesn't follow that there is actually a causal link between previous accidents and vehicle speed.

If the accident wasn't speed related, then the use of cameras isn't going to help. If anything it's going to distract drivers from the more important task of observing the road and anticipating hazards.

As to the number of live cameras - I think you are asking the wrong question. If the SCPs and the police wanted to solve the 'problem' of speeding they could make all 300 live. However there are some problems with this:

1. Most people speed. If all cameras were live a LOT of people would be caught which would be higely unpopular.

2. If it was statistically likely that you would be detected every time you exceeded the speed limit you wouldn't do it. Our roads can't function without a degree of speeding and the authorities have no desire to enforce the limit rigidly as a result.

3. Speed cameras are only revenue generating if they catch speeding motorists. If they were so effective as to actually deter speeding then they would no longer cover there running costs.

As a result of the above the authorities have a vested interest in allowing the majority to continue to speed to some degree, whilst picking off those people who lose concentration momentarily or exceed the SCP's own idea of an 'acceptable tolerance' as an example to the rest of is.

Like many things in life (e.g. government) it's an elaborate charade.

[lolololol]

Originally Posted by NFS

SCP guidelines usually place cameras at accident blackspot locations, but it doesn't follow that there is actually a causal link between previous accidents and vehicle speed.

If the accident wasn't speed related, then the use of cameras isn't going to help. If anything it's going to distract drivers from the more important task of observing the road and anticipating hazards.

As to the number of live cameras - I think you are asking the wrong question. If the SCPs and the police wanted to solve the 'problem' of speeding they could make all 300 live. However there are some problems with this:

1. Most people speed. If all cameras were live a LOT of people would be caught which would be higely unpopular.

2. If it was statistically likely that you would be detected every time you exceeded the speed limit you wouldn't do it. Our roads can't function without a degree of speeding and the authorities have no desire to enforce the limit rigidly as a result.

3. Speed cameras are only revenue generating if they catch speeding motorists. If they were so effective as to actually deter speeding then they would no longer cover there running costs.

As a result of the above the authorities have a vested interest in allowing the majority to continue to speed to some degree, whilst picking off those people who lose concentration momentarily or exceed the SCP's own idea of an 'acceptable tolerance' as an example to the rest of is.

Like many things in life (e.g. government) it's an elaborate charade.

Have you been on a Speed Awareness Course ?

[Steve A]

Originally Posted by NFS

SCP guidelines usually place cameras at accident blackspot locations, but it doesn't follow that there is actually a causal link between previous accidents and vehicle speed.

If the accident wasn't speed related, then the use of cameras isn't going to help. If anything it's going to distract drivers from the more important task of observing the road and anticipating hazards.

As to the number of live cameras - I think you are asking the wrong question. If the SCPs and the police wanted to solve the 'problem' of speeding they could make all 300 live. However there are some problems with this:

1. Most people speed. If all cameras were live a LOT of people would be caught which would be higely unpopular.

2. If it was statistically likely that you would be detected every time you exceeded the speed limit you wouldn't do it. Our roads can't function without a degree of speeding and the authorities have no desire to enforce the limit rigidly as a result.

3. Speed cameras are only revenue generating if they catch speeding motorists. If they were so effective as to actually deter speeding then they would no longer cover there running costs.

As a result of the above the authorities have a vested interest in allowing the majority to continue to speed to some degree, whilst picking off those people who lose concentration momentarily or exceed the SCP's own idea of an 'acceptable tolerance' as an example to the rest of is.

Like many things in life (e.g. government) it's an elaborate charade.

Spot on Simon, i always like reading your posts. Well thought out.

[dxb335d]

Very good Simon....

very true!

[NFS]

Originally Posted by omaragha

Have you been on a Speed Awareness Course ?

No I haven't. However I have done a defensive driving course, which I found very useful.

I'm not knocking the course that you went on at all - I'm sure it was eye opening and it's a far better option than 3 points in terms of education and re-offending.

But my comments about cameras are true. I passed one tonight on a local 30mph road. There was a fatal accident there last year, but it involved a single car and took place late at night.

The driver was heading Eastbound and for reasons unknown lost control and hit a tree.

Speed may or may not have been a factor in this incident, but it does seem to have been a 'one off'. Regardless we now have a shiny new Gatso, but oddly they have decided to place it on the Westbound side of the road.

So the local authority is using a camera 'apparently' because the area is an accident blackspot, but the way it is being used is such that it would never prevent a reoccurence of the accident in question.

What it will do is slow down Eastbound traffic. I reckon 99% of people would have passed by at around 40mph before the camera. It had been that way without incident for at least 10 years. Now we have a camera, so they will all be below 35mph. It's well signposted, but the odd driver will forget and get a ticket.

So in the name of safety we have a camera, which does not actually increase safety at all. We need some measures to improve the standard of driving, but I'm not sure this is the best way.

Now .. compulsory motorway driving lessons I would support.

[lons]

Originally Posted by omaragha

My views were similar to yours until I went on a Speed awareness course. I went on the belief that I wanted to avoid the 3 points I had been given by going on this course. My views have changed since particularly with the view that cameras are a way of scaming us for money. Some facts I learnt on the course:

Did you know that there are 300+ cameras in Berks but only 22 are 'live' at any one time. If they wanted to scam us then they would all be live wouldn't they ?

Have you noticed that there are some cameras outside schools and some are not ? The reason for the selection of placement of cameras is primarily due to a fatality happening at that point.

Have you also noticed that at some sharp corners there are extra warnings and LED signs that flash if you are going to fast, again this is due to a fatality at that area.

These are just some of the facts that I picked up on the course so to think that cameras are just a money making exercise (as I did) is very short sighted IMO.

It certainly was an eye opener for me anyway !

The response by NFS was spot on............

The speed awareness course is by necessity a "brainwashing excercise" and perhaps you've been suitably "cleansed"?

They should also look at minimum speed limits to keep traffic moving and speed up the old goats who often are the cause of accidents.

Self declaration for licence renewals should not be allowed.
I personally know 2 drivers well into their eighties who shouldn't be in charge of a shopping trolley, let alone a car! One 86 yr old has advanced dementure ffs.

If cameras aren't there to raise revenue, then why is local funding reduced by the government to take accouint of the revenues raised by the camera? I can't be 100% sure this happens now but it certainly was the case in the very recent past.

If you look at the placement of cameras, the are many amomolies and not all are placed where there have been fatalities or serious accidents and certainly not stats to indicate whether any accidents were caused by speeding.

And what about the covert "white workman" vans which hide in dark corners and raise millions pa?

Don't believe the spin - the b******* will tell you anything to get their mitts on our cash.

Just my opinion (and I don't speed in built up areas)

[Ant Man]

There is one notorious speed camera that has generated over £500,000 since being installed. However, accidents have actually gone up because of it yet the local council will not remove it. The camera can be located via google or Honest John's website.

Also the location of some cameras is a mystery. Some are no where near where 'the' accident occured but located to catch out more motorists.

Some 'accidents' involve cyclist and or padestrians yet these 'accident stats' can be used to install a speed camera.

Anyway, getting slighly off topic. I do believe that within 10 years it will be nearly impossible to speed or have fun on the roads. When that moment comes I think I'll buy a KWS Jaguar XJ6

[lolololol]

Off topic slightly but a healthy debate nonetheless,

Good points raised by all,

With regard to 'cleansing', I dont think I have been cleansed but my awareness to many road safety issues has been heightened. I enjoy a spirited drive from time to time but am more aware of when and where I use the right foot.

I also don't feel that the course is about brainwashing or governmental spin / propaganda. The cameras were only covered in 15mins of a 3 hour course. Interestingly enough there was plenty of interaction and not just being spoken at. They also covered motorway driving behaviors by the way.

Anyways I found the course useful which I was surprised as I thought it would be a 'sit at the back job' and hopefully the 3 hours passes quickly.

With regard to white covert vans with cameras, I haven't seen any in my area, all the camera vans are clearly marked. We have a camera van in the same position on a dual carriage way into my local town quite often, he sits just 250 meters after a fixed camera. This is on a dual carriage way that many drivers including me used to speed down, now that all the locals know a camera van is there most days everyone drives the speed limit up that road constantly, and for safety that cant be a bad thing.

In summary I think that local authorities that offer the course (not all do) instead of 3 points are doing something positive by highlighting driver awareness and increasing education, dont you ?

Thanks

[NFS]

Originally Posted by omaragha

With regard to 'cleansing', I dont think I have been cleansed but my awareness to many road safety issues has been heightened. I enjoy a spirited drive from time to time but am more aware of when and where I use the right foot.

This can only be a good thing. I was into cars from an early age and bought my first one myself aged 17. My stepdad made damn sure that I understood that a car was a lethal weapon and I've never forgotten that advice.

However, I do enjoy a spirited drive and I genuinely believe that the experience of having span a car and having saved it on the limit has made me a much better and safer driver. They teach skidpan handling as part of the driving test in Finland and I think something similar here would be very useful.

Originally Posted by omaragha

In summary I think that local authorities that offer the course (not all do) instead of 3 points are doing something positive by highlighting driver awareness and increasing education, dont you

Totally agree with this. I similarly got a lot from the defensive driving course laid on by one of my employers. Loads of good stuff including 2 excellent bits of advice about motorways:

1. If you are in a tailback because of an accident it's easy to keep your cool if you remember how much better it is to be in the queue than it would be to be in the crash.

2. The single most dangerous position on a motorway is at the back of a stationary queue. There are more fatalities due to rear end shunts in these circumstances than any other situation. So .. try not to end up stationary by slowing gradually, but if you do find yourself at the back of the queue sit with your foot on the brake. This makes you more visible and it also makes it less likely that you will be shunted into the car in front if someone doesn't stop in time.

Good advice.

[lons]

Originally Posted by omaragha

Off topic slightly but a healthy debate nonetheless,

Good points raised by all,

With regard to 'cleansing', I dont think I have been cleansed but my awareness to many road safety issues has been heightened. I enjoy a spirited drive from time to time but am more aware of when and where I use the right foot.

I also don't feel that the course is about brainwashing or governmental spin / propaganda. The cameras were only covered in 15mins of a 3 hour course. Interestingly enough there was plenty of interaction and not just being spoken at. They also covered motorway driving behaviors by the way.

Anyways I found the course useful which I was surprised as I thought it would be a 'sit at the back job' and hopefully the 3 hours passes quickly.

With regard to white covert vans with cameras, I haven't seen any in my area, all the camera vans are clearly marked. We have a camera van in the same position on a dual carriage way into my local town quite often, he sits just 250 meters after a fixed camera. This is on a dual carriage way that many drivers including me used to speed down, now that all the locals know a camera van is there most days everyone drives the speed limit up that road constantly, and for safety that cant be a bad thing.

In summary I think that local authorities that offer the course (not all do) instead of 3 points are doing something positive by highlighting driver awareness and increasing education, dont you ?

Thanks

Nothing personal intended with the "cleansing" comment - just opinion from my own experiences but if it worked for you then it was worthwhile and better than 3 points.

"safety" vans are clearly marked now but only due to public outrage as they started out like workman transit vans but they definately do hide in a number of locations locally to me where there have been no accidents for years.

There are/were also 2 smaller unmarked white vans which operate and when I complained to the police last year about one being parked in a dangerous position blocking views on a blind hill, I was told they could do nothing about it as it was "protected"!

Strange that Tyneside and Northumberland have their fair share of fixed cameras whilst Durham has none and yet has a better safety record?
More complicated I know but "lies, damn lies and statistics" etc?

It seems the majority of accidents involve very young / old drivers and there should be better training / control of these groups. test should include defensive and evasive elements in my opinion.

Far too easy for inexperienced drivers (or old ones with diminished reactions) to take the wheel of high powered motors and into heavy traffic and poor driving conditions.

[PhilR]

From my experience most of the speed camera's are not turned on.

I have quite a decent speed camera detector and I would say that about 1 in 6 is actually live.

The amount of cashing is on the taxed to hell motorist by way of fines is I believe all dependent on the County Police's approach so varies greatly depending on the policy of each.

Most speed camera's are in built up areas where IMO speed limits should be kept near to the designated limits for obvious reasons although in reality unless it's 1:00 AM how is it possible to speed on the conjested roads

What really gets my goat is the placement of camera's on many out of town A and B roads etc where one would from time to time naturally give it the beans for driver enjoyment.

What really pi££es me off is the sneaky white vans placed behind another parked car in a 30 zone on a straight dual carriageway that should in reality be a 40. £££££££££££££

It appears to me that anything the UK public gets enjoyment from is taxed to the hilt.


Slightly Tounge in Cheeck
Our future scociety is fast becoming a clone of various scences from the movie Demolition Man.

If you have seen the Movie you may recall the statutory fines for swearing in public emposed by Big Brother, cars (electric powered) that drive themselves (technology is here now), and alcoholic beverages will cease to exist. Even sexual contact was taboo unless it was Cybersex.

I'm off to start knitting that cardigan -LOL