[SouthCali335]

Originally Posted by lndshrk

When you are producing 400whp on stock turbos, stock FMIC, and OEM
catted downpipe you let us know.

Because it's not just unsafe (and trust me - it IS my responsibility to say
as a responsible business owner that I WILL NOT do something that I consider
in any way UNSAFE) - it's also ILLEGAL.

It's called emissions tampering - those of you who use O2 Simms and remove
your cats might think this is a joke - but the EPA does not.

Casper's Electronics used to make O2 Simms - similar to what is included
in some of the piggys today.

Go see what happened to them.

Read: http://www.epa.gov/oecaerth/resource.../casper-cd.pdf

In short - having to buy back every emissions tampering device you ever sold
at MSRP - and then having to pay the Feds another $75,000 plus all those
attorney fees - that's not my game.

I've tried to tell y'all - the EPA doesn't play games with this - and neither do I.

As to increased HP, when we change the turbos and FMIC - we'll be pushing
for those types of numbers (and beyond). Until then, we'll be doing what
I deem "safe" - and 400whp on stock turbos IS NOT safe.

I just don't and will not agree with you here and same with most, if its our cars its our choice, i honestly applaud you for telling us that it is unsafe but i guarantee you that the people pushing 400whp+ know that they are wearing down the motor and turbos more than the stock form... I am simply saying that you should give us the option to do what we want with our cars as you said that we could do with the shark edit in the first place...

[HighVoltage]

Originally Posted by lndshrk

PM me your email address and I'll email some things for light reading over
the weekend.

You have PM.

[lndshrk]

Originally Posted by luca335i

so being a programmer has alot to do with knowing the hardware yer dealing with (turbos,etc). Have you tested the real limits of the n54 platform? Do you think it would be in the better interest for shiv and terry to give us the maps to produce these numbers and destroy our motors in the process. I guess u have your reasons for your conservative approach to the n54 and I respect your knowledge and experience. What do you feel is the weak link in the n54 to state that 400whp is unsafe. I feel yer being a little to harsh on southcali. Cuz without people like him on these boards we would have no idea what these cars are capable of pushing.

It's not just a matter of "weak link".

Let me explain - and if you don't mind - I'll use your car as an example.

In your sig "UR HFC DOWNPIPES"

I'm presuimg HFC = "High-Flow Cat" - which is commendable that you kept
the catalysts versus ditching them. The problem is that whomever sold you
those cats likely broke the law. I keep harping on the law, because I have
to be careful in not breaking it.

You cannot "replace" cats on a vehicle unless those cats are damaged - and
in the case of your car - since they would be under the Cali or Fed emissions
warranty - they would be replaced by BMW w/ stock cats.

Yes, it sucks.

But the difference between someone else changing your cats - and you
doing it - are the levels of fines they throw at a tuner.

Please read the Casper's Electronics Consent Decree I linked above!

So in essence - if you're going to "Play by the rules" you have to leave
the stock downpipe

Now, as to the "limits" of the N54 - you have a few of them.

The first - is pure Physics (well, Thermodynamics).

The Compressor Wheels on your turbos have - like all turbos - a surge line,
a choke line, and regions of varying efficiency of operation which are usually
shown in something called "a turbo map".

Scott was nice enough to obtain these maps (at great difficulty) and present
them to the world - he was basically laughed at by the masses.

When you run those turbos "off the map" - which is to say that the combination
of mass flow and pressure differential (aka BOOST) is such that the operation
is either massively inefficient - or even worse, beyond the choke line - you
are producing mainly HEAT.

Heat is the enemy of longevity AND of power.

That's what "efficiency" is - Pressure caused by an increase in air density, vs.
pressure increase caused by an increase in air temperature.

Remember: PV = nRT

Since V is constant here - and R IS a (Universal Gas) constant.

We can simplify: P = nT

Increase n (number of molecules - with a constant V - that's density) and
the pressure goes up.

Increase T (temperature) and the pressure goes up.

We want the best increase in n, with the least increase in T.

So we try NOT to run "off the map".

When you overspeed a turbo - bad things happen.

Bearings can fail, impellers can hit housings. I've run the N54 turbos to
near destruction on a stand - so we know where they CAN go - where they
BLOW - and where they SHOULD go.

If you want to make more boost at a higher airflow - you change the turbos
to some that have "better" compressor maps.

In essence - better efficiency at the peak boost and peak airflow you want
to attain.

So the turbos are ONE limitation - and it's one we can quantify.

The stock FMIC is another - it's too restrictive at higher boosts, and it's
efficiency in cooling the charge isn't great.

Next - one we cannot quantify too easily - is when does the stock
fuel system - specifically the D/I pump - give up the ghost.

Since we've seen that it is sort of dependent on both the pressures being
run AND the quality of fuel we have (mostly how much Ethanol is present)
it's become a "let's see" game.

There is nothing quantifiable except "too much pressure for that ethanol
content = failure".

We'll be exploring that more as we increase boost with better turbos.

Lastly - the one we don't want to find - when do the hypereutectic pistons
say "No Mas". That's already been found a few times accidentally by others,
and the bill is staggering because the "official" procedure is to basically replace
everything in the engine bay right down to the cats.

Engine, Intake, Exhaust, Turbos, Downpipe, Charge Piping, FMIC, etc.

ALL of it.

(Sound of cash register)

Hope this helps answer your question!

Jim

[dmurray14]

Jim, if you wouldn't mind sending me some "light reading" I'd love to look at it as well!

[lndshrk]

Originally Posted by SouthCali335

I just don't and will not agree with you here and same with most, if its our cars its our choice, i honestly applaud you for telling us that it is unsafe but i guarantee you that the people pushing 400whp+ know that they are wearing down the motor and turbos more than the stock form... I am simply saying that you should give us the option to do what we want with our cars as you said that we could do with the shark edit in the first place...

Right - and when they blow the motor - and there is no warranty - and the
bill is $30,000 or so at a dealer. To replace the engine, the turbos, the intake manifold,
the exhaust manifolds, the downpipes, the FMIC, and then a bunch of
labor.... (and yes, it's happened)

Who gets sued?

(We're talking about me providing you a tune to do this, NOT Shark Edit)

It's the same reason car manufacturers match the speed limits in the ECUs
with the speed limits on the tires. NOT to do so would be both UNSAFE and
a large open hole thru which lawyers would run in with hands outstretched.

This of course - is above and beyond the possible loss of life.

Have you ever been behind someone who's popped an engine? It's not
a fun experience to suddenly go to ZERO traction because there is an oil
slick where the road once was. Do it on a straight - and MAYBE you can
pull it back in - do it on the slightest curve and it's not a fun ride.

When the father of 4 - in the car behind you - in a curve - dies a horrible
death because your engine popped because "I should be ALLOWED to run
whatever boost I want to" - who do you think the decedents widow is
going to sue? First you - then discovery - then complaint amendment
with my companies and their large liability policies as co-defendant.

Sorry, not me boss - I don't want the weight on my shoulders.

This isn't a track car - it's a street car.

(FWIW, You might not even THINK of those things - It's MY JOB to think of them!)

If I provide a tune that can defeat O2 sensors - so you can run catless...

Who gets a visit from the EPA, US Attorney, and Federal Marshals?

You? or Me?

You don't realize this isn't me making up stories - these events have already
happened in the past. They continue to happen.

Caspers wasn't the first - it won't be the last - it just has a nice easy to
find consent decree in pdf format!

I run a clean ship - if you want to run higher levels of boost than I deem safe
knowing all the engineering criteria for the vehicle - and also having access
to some of the most extensive dyno cells on planet earth - that's fine and fair
but you need to find someone else who is willing to do it. I'm not.

The liabilities aren't worth it to me.

Same with enabling catless "anything". It's not legal. Won't do it.

My offer to you is still open WHEN you get the new turbos, I'll be happy to
help you tune them in w/ a better FMIC/etc - hell, I won't even charge you.

Because you can't do it reliably with a piggyback (emphasis on RELIABLY)
as the actual turbine compressor maps are programmed into the MSD80/81.

The point being - I run things TO the limits, not BEYOND the limits.

I understand - you want to be able to do whatever it is that you want to
do at that particular moment - and you're fully allowed to do so - until it
all goes wrong. I hope it doesn't for your sake - but if it does - I'm not
going to be part-and-parcel of the carnage. It's not my style.

I didn't come into the BMW tuning community because of the N54 - and I'll
be here long after the N54 is gone, and it's replacement uses encrypted
sensors and "piggying" them is done. I'm not going to ruin my reputation
by popping motors. I'll leave that to others - they seem to be all to willing
to do it - and from reports, pretty good at it too.

Jim

[lndshrk]

Originally Posted by HighVoltage

You have PM.

You have a reply

[tomtom]

do you know the safe limit for boosting these turbos/engines?

[luca335i]

Oh by the way jim. My last name is conforti and I'm calabrese too. Testa dura!! LOL.

[lndshrk]

Originally Posted by tomtom

do you know the safe limit for boosting these turbos/engines?

It varies depending on the RPM - it's not so much the "safe limit for boosting
the engine" as it is the safe limits for the turbos.

I presume you've seen the maps - and the equations to derive where you
are on the maps are public knowledge and have been calculated.

As mass flow increases (as RPM increases) the amount of boost needs to
be tapered down to avoid passing the choke line of the turbo.

14 PSI midrange and about 11 up top is the raggedly-edge limit.

Beyond that you gain horsepower with efficiency - better FMIC, better intake,
etc.

And yes, there are people pushing 18psi to redline.

The question is do you REALLY think that the stock turbos were designed
with a safety margin of 250+%?

I.E.: The factory runs 8.5-9psi max and only about 7 at redline, yet it's
somehow safe to run 18psi at redline?

[SouthCali335]

Originally Posted by lndshrk

It varies depending on the RPM - it's not so much the "safe limit for boosting
the engine" as it is the safe limits for the turbos.

I presume you've seen the maps - and the equations to derive where you
are on the maps are public knowledge and have been calculated.

As mass flow increases (as RPM increases) the amount of boost needs to
be tapered down to avoid passing the choke line of the turbo.

14 PSI midrange and about 11 up top is the raggedly-edge limit.

Beyond that you gain horsepower with efficiency - better FMIC, better intake,
etc.

And yes, there are people pushing 18psi to redline.

The question is do you REALLY think that the stock turbos were designed
with a safety margin of 250+%?

I.E.: The factory runs 8.5-9psi max and only about 7 at redline, yet it's
somehow safe to run 18psi at redline?

The piggy tuners themselves say publicly that it is not recommended and you take a risk on your turbos and engine in their defense...

[DMETune]

Originally Posted by scottp999

While everyone is paying attention to this thread, have any DME TUNE customers put up independent dynos or dragtimes slips? Is DME TUNE still only available locally, or are flashes being done through the mail? Are there plans for a wider distribution?

Hi Scott P,

Keep an eye out for the Edmunds dyno post next week..there might even be an overlay with a certain M3 that happened to be strapped to the dyno a few moments before the 135i. The results from Edmunds will be as independent and fair as it gets. Same day, same dyno, pre and post-flash. No changes in ambient temp, vehicle strapping, tire pressures, fuel, etc. It's a rear-wheel drive, manual transmission N54 on a popular Dynojet. (several have asked for this type of testing on the Stage II flash)

The flash is available to those in SoCal (or willing to travel) at this time. Yes, there are plans for wider distribution -- possibly via mail-in and via Shark Injector.

Scott

[scottp999]

Originally Posted by DMETune

Hi Scott P,

Keep an eye out for the Edmunds dyno post next week..there might even be an overlay with a certain M3 that happened to be strapped to the dyno a few moments before the 135i. The results from Edmunds will be as independent and fair as it gets. Same day, same dyno, pre and post-flash. No changes in ambient temp, vehicle strapping, tire pressures, fuel, etc. It's a rear-wheel drive, manual transmission N54 on a popular Dynojet. (several have asked for this type of testing on the Stage II flash)

The flash is available to those in SoCal (or willing to travel) at this time. Yes, there are plans for wider distribution -- possibly via mail-in and via Shark Injector.

Scott

Thanks for the follow-up. Will keep an eye out.

[WhiteSled]

I understand all this legal talk. BTW i work hand in hand with the epa....however, i don't see how you can get sued if you market something for offroad. Who's to say that my 135i is not a race car, tracked every month, and never sees any street use.

[lndshrk]

Originally Posted by WhiteSled

I understand all this legal talk. BTW i work hand in hand with the epa....however, i don't see how you can get sued if you market something for offroad. Who's to say that my 135i is not a race car, tracked every month, and never sees any street use.

Since you work with the EPA - Ask them about any "offroad exception"
I long ago had this discussion w/ some EPA people in CO as well as my
friends at NHTSA - which also have a horse in this race.

Caspers sold their O2 simms "for offroad use only" as well.

Did it save them from the BUFU?

The problem is never GENUINE track vehicles - it's people running race tunes
and race gas and no cats on the street.

[Mass_Media]

Originally Posted by sirzepp

I want some cupcakes.

come wif me. Cupcakes for ALL!!!!!!

[smdandb2]

BEEF CAKE!!!!!!!!!

[JoeyFiasco]

by far one of the best threads i've read in a while.

keep yelling and screaming and cursing at each other, it's makes the informative stuff not so dull. haha

[WhiteSled]

Originally Posted by lndshrk

Since you work with the EPA - Ask them about any "offroad exception"
I long ago had this discussion w/ some EPA people in CO as well as my
friends at NHTSA - which also have a horse in this race.

Caspers sold their O2 simms "for offroad use only" as well.

Did it save them from the BUFU?

The problem is never GENUINE track vehicles - it's people running race tunes
and race gas and no cats on the street.

I understand that, but how is that your problem? Your are the one selling it based on something they agreed to. That agreement being that their car is used for offroad purposes only, so if they lied how is that your ass? I work in the environmental remidiation devision that deals with superfund sites that cost millions and decades to restore....if i asked them they would probably look at me go who cares. Hell they see my car everyday and they dont care. My old car was catlass with a gt35r turbo sipping on meth backfiring every shift with the wotbox.

[scottp999]

Originally Posted by WhiteSled

I understand that, but how is that your problem?

He already presented one case on it. Disclaimer or not, the law is clear, and the precedent is set in case law. In EPA's opinion there is no off-road use of a car (motor vehicle) produced for on road use. If he accepted a waiver, or someone's agreement, that their BMW 335 is for "off-road" use, he would still be breaking the law, because it's not legal for anyone to de-certify a motor vehicle (He would be accepting illegal de-certifications). I think the EPA is more likely to go after a business that is committing mutiple counts, than a single person, committing one violation.

Take a look at this EPA fact sheet posted in another thread:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...0&postcount=18


A snapshot:

Question 2.

Can I remove a converter from a vehicle that is used only for "off-road" driving?

Answer 2. No. The tampering prohibition discussed in Answer #1 applies to this situation as well. The federal tampering prohibition pertains to "motor vehicles," which are defined by section 216(2) of the Act as "any self-propelled vehicle[s] designed for transporting persons or property on a street or highway." A light-duty vehicle manufacturer certifies an engine-chassis configuration as meeting the applicable emissions standards for motor vehicles manufactured in a given model year, and it is not legal for anyone to "de-certify" a motor vehicle for "off-road" use.

[scottp999]

Originally Posted by SouthCali335

The piggy tuners themselves say publicly that it is not recommended and you take a risk on your turbos and engine in their defense...

Some standard maps are hitting 14.5 to 15 PSI in the mid-rpm range up to say 6200-6500 and then dropping off fast to 8-10 PSI up top, which seems to be pretty close to the limits, but probably slightly over the safety mark Jim is talking about.

[lndshrk]

Originally Posted by scottp999

He already presented one case on it. Disclaimer or not, the law is clear, and the precedent is set in case law. In EPA's opinion there is no off-road use of a car (motor vehicle) produced for on road use.

THANK YOU scottp999

You said it more succinctly that I sometimes can!

In short the "off-road exception" is simply Bravo Sierra. (B.S.)