[PBureno]

Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck

By approach, here's the kind of things I'm suggesting (putting my money where my mouth is):

1. Go straight to the dealership's owner/president ... bypass everyone in the system.
2. Write a letter - people don't use letters today so written correspondence stands out. Fax is fine, but courier is even better. Do not use e-mail.
3. In that letter, put the following sentiments:
   • That you're writing to the owner because you don't know where else to turn.
   • That you chose Autohause for your dealership because you were confident that they would be there for your during the life of your lease and you're not experiencing anywhere near the level of support and service that they led you to believe you would receive.
   • That you really want your BMW and Autohause leasing experience to be great.
   • That you had an incident with the vehicle that has scared you. Do not raise this comment to the level of hyperbole about being dangerous or believing that you were in danger, but do say it makes you worry about being safe. That wording difference may seem subtle, but it's important.
   • That when you have tried to deal with an issue that Autohause should treat as important, the SA is more interested in chatting with other customers and taking phone calls rather than addressing your concerns. State that it surely cannot be the level of service that Mr. Autohause (whomever you're addressing the letter to) would want his customers receiving and you are having a difficult time feeling satisfied that your worries and concerns will be taken seriously.
4. And, make sure you express the sentiment that you really want to love your BMW and your experience with Autohause. However, your vehicle is a lease and you will be making a decision on a new vehicle when it expires. The manner in which these issue get resolved will directly influence your next vehicle decision.

You're right that BMW and Autohause care about money. The tone you take should firmly place future purchasing decisons (and money) at risk while preserving an opportunity for them to rectify the issues and secure a future relationship. That gives a reason to put your file at the top of the pile as opposed to the bottom which is where internet petitions, online posts, and threats of lawyers gets you.

[aspiring335]

Originally Posted by veightkiller

So your saying is if the dealer sold you a lemon you just have to live with it? well i don't know about you but i'll take them to court and make my hard earned $$$$ worthy.


To the OP, like i said get a lawyer and know your rights on this matter and see where you stand in court, assuming your car is still under warranty they should fix it or replace it.

Of course I'm not saying that. I'm saying that the knee-jerk "sue somebody!" reaction is usually completely uninformed and plain bad advice. Ironically you go on to say "they should fix or replace it", which is exactly what they are doing (fixing it) by taking the car in for repairs.

Also, from the OP's post, I don't know how you would conclude that the car is a "lemon" (not to mention that we do not have a lemon law in Canada), and even if it was, suing is probably the least productive and most expensive way of resolving the situation.

The courts aren't some kind of quick fix for bad customer service. The OP would be infinitely better off following Johnny Canuck's advice since it will actually get him some results rather than just a big bill from the kind of lawyer who would take on this kind of case.

[NiceAndSlow]

Originally Posted by npinibir2

Get a lawyer. That is exactly what I did with my 328 and it took less than 5 weeks and I got rid of the problem. I had to pay for the mileage that I put in the car but it's all good, my headache and frustration is gone. I like BMW's but I'll stay away for now until the issues with their cars are fixed.

Do you have the your lawyer's info? and how much did it cost?

[NiceAndSlow]

Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck

Thanks C.D.

My professional life has involved a substantial amount of negotiating as well and I bring those professional tools and skills to my personal dealings. Tends to serve me well and I'm inclined to believe that rational, calm, and reasonable approaches will advance anyone's cause more than theatrics or hyperbole. If others here find that useful, that would be cool!

Although I really do appreciate the advice and trust me, this isn't the first time I have filed a complain. The first 2 times were very professional and that did not get the job done. This tactic only works if you are dealing with professionals. If the business you are dealing with does not want to handle this in a professional manner then you will have to try another route. This is why there is a court system.

How many times have you heard of companies being sued because they refused to do anything? If your tactics work all the time, then we wouldn't need lawyers nor the court system. Yes it may be costly but again, sometimes it's not about the money, and about the fact that these "big boys" do not care about us little guys. You hear this in the media quite often where companies are taken to courts because of ....

If this was the first time filing a complaint to BMW Canada, then you're absolutely right.. go with the professional approach which I did. And the same for the second time. It's probably my fault not giving history on my first post but this is the 4th time I am back to BMW for which I think is a major safety issue.

[shagkie]

Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck

By approach, here's the kind of things I'm suggesting (putting my money where my mouth is):

1. Go straight to the dealership's owner/president ... bypass everyone in the system.
2. Write a letter - people don't use letters today so written correspondence stands out. Fax is fine, but courier is even better. Do not use e-mail.
3. In that letter, put the following sentiments:
   • That you're writing to the owner because you don't know where else to turn.
   • That you chose Autohause for your dealership because you were confident that they would be there for your during the life of your lease and you're not experiencing anywhere near the level of support and service that they led you to believe you would receive.
   • That you really want your BMW and Autohause leasing experience to be great.
   • That you had an incident with the vehicle that has scared you. Do not raise this comment to the level of hyperbole about being dangerous or believing that you were in danger, but do say it makes you worry about being safe. That wording difference may seem subtle, but it's important.
   • That when you have tried to deal with an issue that Autohause should treat as important, the SA is more interested in chatting with other customers and taking phone calls rather than addressing your concerns. State that it surely cannot be the level of service that Mr. Autohause (whomever you're addressing the letter to) would want his customers receiving and you are having a difficult time feeling satisfied that your worries and concerns will be taken seriously.
4. And, make sure you express the sentiment that you really want to love your BMW and your experience with Autohause. However, your vehicle is a lease and you will be making a decision on a new vehicle when it expires. The manner in which these issue get resolved will directly influence your next vehicle decision.

You're right that BMW and Autohause care about money. The tone you take should firmly place future purchasing decisons (and money) at risk while preserving an opportunity for them to rectify the issues and secure a future relationship. That gives a reason to put your file at the top of the pile as opposed to the bottom which is where internet petitions, online posts, and threats of lawyers gets you.

++1

[npinibir2]

Originally Posted by NiceAndSlow

Do you have the your lawyer's info? and how much did it cost?

Oops, I didn't realize you are in Canada until today. You'll have to find one in Canada as I did it in the US. The lemon law might be different in Canada but it won't hurt to check. There is no out of pocket cost to you win or lose. BMW paid for all legal fees.

Here is the link to the lawyer that I used and there's some good info there to start to see if you have a case.

http://www.autolemonlaws.com/

Good luck. It's not worth putting your family or your love one at risk.

[npinibir2]

another oops, someone already mentioned that there is no lemon law in Canada. Good luck and seek advice from the professional.

[NiceAndSlow]

Originally Posted by npinibir2

Oops, I didn't realize you are in Canada until today. You'll have to find one in Canada as I did it in the US. The lemon law might be different in Canada but it won't hurt to check. There is no out of pocket cost to you win or lose. BMW paid for all legal fees.

Here is the link to the lawyer that I used and there's some good info there to start to see if you have a case.

http://www.autolemonlaws.com/

Good luck. It's not worth putting your family or your love one at risk.

Thanks .. I am taking this in stride... I have written another letter, my 3rd one to BMW Customer service and have cc'ed the general manager of BMW Autohaus... I will wait for their respond and if the respond is not satisfactory, then I will persist. Canada does not have a lemon law but the have something call CAMVAP but unfortunately, information informs me that BMW and Mitshibushi does not participate in this program currently. At least Mitshibushi did before but pulled out. Really makes me think why I even bother getting a car from a company that does not stand behind their quality control

[JohnnyCanuck]

I think you misunderstand the remedies available through CAMVAP. The arbitrator can order that your vehicle be repaired or a buyback. You have a leased vehicle, an arbitrator cannot, nor will not, order the manufacturer to refund lease payments made. All he/she can order is buyback, but in lease, that's not a lot of money.

Most importantly, here's what an arbitrator cannot order:

• Exemplary, punitive or other damages (except as allowed by the plan);
• That the agreement to buy or lease your vehicle be voided or set aside;
• Reimbursement of expenses to buy or lease your vehicle;
• A buy-back if you exceed the buy back eligibility requirements, even if repairs cannot be made;
• Extended service contracts or warranty extensions.

Even if BMW participated in CAMVAP, it would not provide for damages of any substantive type. That appears to be what you're really after. You're angry at BMW and you want them to pay. That's beyond the scope of CAMVAP. Further, that's beyond the scope of any remedy you could reasonably obtain in court. Fortunately we live in Canada where there is a very high bar required to establish a claim for punitive or aggravated damages. You have show elements of bad faith conduct to establish a claim like that (deliberate, high-handed and malicious conduct). Trust me, you don't have that here.

If what you are seeking is that BMW make good on your vehicle by attending to the complaints you have, there are practical suggestions in this thread about how to go about it. If you want more than that, you aren't going to get it and BMW's participation in CAMVAP makes no difference.

[NiceAndSlow]

Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck

I think you misunderstand the remedies available through CAMVAP. The arbitrator can order that your vehicle be repaired or a buyback. You have a leased vehicle, an arbitrator cannot, nor will not, order the manufacturer to refund lease payments made. All he/she can order is buyback, but in lease, that's not a lot of money.

Most importantly, here's what an arbitrator cannot order:


Even if BMW participated in CAMVAP, it would not provide for damages of any substantive type. That appears to be what you're really after. You're angry at BMW and you want them to pay. That's beyond the scope of CAMVAP. Further, that's beyond the scope of any remedy you could reasonably obtain in court. Fortunately we live in Canada where there is a very high bar required to establish a claim for punitive or aggravated damages. You have show elements of bad faith conduct to establish a claim like that (deliberate, high-handed and malicious conduct). Trust me, you don't have that here.

If what you are seeking is that BMW make good on your vehicle by attending to the complaints you have, there are practical suggestions in this thread about how to go about it. If you want more than that, you aren't going to get it and BMW's participation in CAMVAP makes no difference.

The fact being that BMW does not participates in CAMVAP must stand for something when a consumer is looking to buy a car. A company that does not stand behind their quality control. Simple as that.. I keep thinking that thanking you for your suggesting and your suggestions have been noted. Although most of it is good, I get a sense that by "proving your superior knowledge" you tend to put people own's decision down and lack the compassionate factor in this manner. I am guessing I am more rash and make decisions that you may find unprofessional and "malicious" in your words but keep in mind that people's safety is at sake here.. If you dont' have the same sentiments that is fine but please feel free to refrain from "making your point to make others feel less as intelligent as you". I can assure you that you your tactis is not the only way to deal with this manner and such results can be achieved by other means.

[JohnnyCanuck]

What I said was that "there are practical suggestions in this thread ..." as a general comment. I didn't specifically point to my suggestions or others so your comments about my attitude are misplaced and, frankly, insulting. You are also misquoting me. I did not say that you were being "malicious". I said that, to establish a claim for punitive or aggravated damages against BMW, you need to show that they are being malicious. Please do not assume that I am insulting you.

Clearly the way you are going about it is not accomplishing anything. Rather than be self-reflective and acknowledge that you need to change your approach, you choose to reject all the advice in this thread and accuse those who are trying to be helpful of being "insensitive" or lacking in compassion.

[NiceAndSlow]

Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck

What I said was that "there are practical suggestions in this thread ..." as a general comment. I didn't specifically point to my suggestions or others so your comments about my attitude are misplaced and, frankly, insulting. You are also misquoting me. I did not say that you were being "malicious". I said that, to establish a claim for punitive or aggravated damages against BMW, you need to show that they are being malicious. Please do not assume that I am insulting you.

Clearly the way you are going about it is not accomplishing anything. Rather than be self-reflective and acknowledge that you need to change your approach, you choose to reject all the advice in this thread and accuse those who are trying to be helpful of being "insensitive" or lacking in compassion.

Wow even before getting any respond back from BMW Canada/Autohaus, you already made the assumptions that my tactics will not accomplish anything, who is insulting who? I did not nor reject people's suggestions including yours. Did I nnot mention that I have written a letter to BMW Canada and the GM of Autohaus?????

Again, you have the rights to your opinion and I have mine. And I do infact fine your suggestions useful but sometimes "show off ish " on your so call "wisdom".. scroll up and you can review yourself..

[goldn]

johnnycanuck & aspiring335, excellent info, well thoughtout.
noted for future insight regarding many situations.

[NiceAndSlow]

Originally Posted by goldn

johnnycanuck & aspiring335, excellent info, well thoughtout.
noted for future insight regarding many situations.

Agreed!!! Have tried that approach when the second fuel pump went. All I got from BMW canada was a letter apologizing for the whole incident and that they assure me that the vehicle is safe to drive.. lol.. safe eh? Sometimes, professional tactics may not work when dealing with companies as such.. research has proven a long history of Autohaus and BMW Canada as a whole not providing adequate customer service satisfactions.

[NiceAndSlow]

Update: The GM at Autohaus, Peter (assistant manager) and Elizabeth so far have been the most reasonable people there.. left Dominique a voicemail over 8 days ago and still no call from him... future reference, go straight to the GM, Christian Schlager. We are in contact and working out our differences... will update thread.

[trickydisco]

Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck

By approach, here's the kind of things I'm suggesting (putting my money where my mouth is):

1. Go straight to the dealership's owner/president ... bypass everyone in the system.
2. Write a letter - people don't use letters today so written correspondence stands out. Fax is fine, but courier is even better. Do not use e-mail.
3. In that letter, put the following sentiments:
   • That you're writing to the owner because you don't know where else to turn.
   • That you chose Autohause for your dealership because you were confident that they would be there for your during the life of your lease and you're not experiencing anywhere near the level of support and service that they led you to believe you would receive.
   • That you really want your BMW and Autohause leasing experience to be great.
   • That you had an incident with the vehicle that has scared you. Do not raise this comment to the level of hyperbole about being dangerous or believing that you were in danger, but do say it makes you worry about being safe. That wording difference may seem subtle, but it's important.
   • That when you have tried to deal with an issue that Autohause should treat as important, the SA is more interested in chatting with other customers and taking phone calls rather than addressing your concerns. State that it surely cannot be the level of service that Mr. Autohause (whomever you're addressing the letter to) would want his customers receiving and you are having a difficult time feeling satisfied that your worries and concerns will be taken seriously.
4. And, make sure you express the sentiment that you really want to love your BMW and your experience with Autohause. However, your vehicle is a lease and you will be making a decision on a new vehicle when it expires. The manner in which these issue get resolved will directly influence your next vehicle decision.

You're right that BMW and Autohause care about money. The tone you take should firmly place future purchasing decisons (and money) at risk while preserving an opportunity for them to rectify the issues and secure a future relationship. That gives a reason to put your file at the top of the pile as opposed to the bottom which is where internet petitions, online posts, and threats of lawyers gets you.

You nailed it.

[npinibir2]

Originally Posted by trickydisco

You nailed it.

Reverse the role. They will be upset also if they were the ones experiencing this issues. This is no joke and the consumer(you) shouldn't have to come up with some BS story to get the right treatment. Their job is to fix the problem and not band-aid it.

[Well Marbled]

OK. I don't mean to be a jerk but.....if you do intend to have a petition it needs to be rewritten. That is just an embarassingly poorly written document. Nobody will take that seriously.

Sorry. But it's true.

[NiceAndSlow]

Originally Posted by Well Marbled

OK. I don't mean to be a jerk but.....if you do intend to have a petition it needs to be rewritten. That is just an embarassingly poorly written document. Nobody will take that seriously.

Sorry. But it's true.

Absolutely true. That thing was put together in under 10 minutes. Although if Autohaus' resolution is not to satisfactory, I will seek professional help. In the mean time, the main point to this whole issue is to address the fact that an organization as "well-known" as BMW would treat their customer in such manner. The fact being that this car has about 50K on it and has been in the shop for 4 major issues is not normal nor acceptable. Let's forget the grammer nor the approach if possible, and address the concern I have putting my love ones in the vehicle. A human being's is the utmost importance here.

[JohnnyCanuck]

Maybe I'm missing the point of this thread. If what you want is acknowledgement that BMW hasn't done well by you, then you have that and let's move on. I took your request for us to sign your petition as someone seeking assistance with your issue. And yet, when people say things you seem to agree with, as with Well Marbled, and then move back to hyperbole about how awful BMW is.

Are you asking for help? Or do just want sympathy? If you're asking for help, you have tons of it in this thread from several posters. And, despite the insults and lack of graciousness on your part, I will try and offer one more suggestion for you to take or leave: listen to Well Marbled! Simply put, good grammar and well written correspondence will get you significantly more attention and help from BMW, the dealership, or any other company with which you have a dispute. Rather than be "rash" take as much time as you need to craft your correspondence so that it makes your reader (eg. BMW or Autohause) want to help you ... not get rid of you. If your posts here and your petition are examples of what you have sent to BMW and Autohause, it's not good enough to get you anywhere. Sorry ... but that's the truth.

None of this means you're wrong. It just means you're not being effective in dealing with BMW and Autohause. At least by the way you describe it. All anyone here has tried to do is point better ways of going about it that will get you a better result.