[jonnydrama]

If you have the DMS 335i remap how do you find it? Customer service/backup good?

Also, anyone using the 6 pot brake upgrade? Looks very cheap for a complete kit! Who makes the calipers? Can't be that much more expensive than new discs/pads.

[RagingKileak]

Do a search in the technical section for E92Fan's review of the brakes!

Matt

[YvesD]

Originally Posted by RagingKileak

Do a search in the technical section for E92Fan's review of the brakes!

Matt

And DMS re-map !

[jonnydrama]

Found both now, cheers

[E92Fan]

Originally Posted by jonnydrama

If you have the DMS 335i remap how do you find it? Customer service/backup good?

Also, anyone using the 6 pot brake upgrade? Looks very cheap for a complete kit! Who makes the calipers? Can't be that much more expensive than new discs/pads.

Yes.
Yes.
and Yes !


This is a good link too..

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=257531

[Dr Dave]

Made by Brembo.

I have a set on my 330d. Looks the nuts.

[Alpina_B3_Lux]

Originally Posted by jonnydrama

Also, anyone using the 6 pot brake upgrade? Looks very cheap for a complete kit! Who makes the calipers? Can't be that much more expensive than new discs/pads.

The BMW Performance brakes are not available for the 335i (and I don't think they'll ever be). The ones made for the 1 series fit on the 3 series too, but are not an extraordinary improvement. Go with other brake pads or the BBK from AP Racing instead, you get a much better value for your money.

Alpina_B3_Lux

[Matt2008]

I've been searching most of the evening about the BMW Performance Brakes and after several beers later, these brakes are:

1. not suitable for a 335d
2. Are ok on the 335d
3. not made for the 335d
4. Made for 1 series
5. The stock brakes on a 335d are better
6. BMW Performance Brakes are better than the stock brakes
7. I should spend 5-6k on a set
8. I should leave the originals on and forget about it
9. I should buy a faster car



In front of me i have a BMW performance catologue and it clearly shows these brakes are available for the 3 series yet in small print it says 'Product availabilty dependent on vehicle specification'.


Can someone confirm or just make me more confused if these BMW Performance Brakes are suitable for a 335d as i can't wait for the dealer to open tom

For me they are more for 'show' rather than charging around a track so would rather not spend £1000's on a set of 4 to be total overkill.
Also, despite the nice shiny yellow caliper, would the disc size look a little crappy on 19" 269 wheels compared to stock disc size?

A lot of the posts i've searched on are from 2008/early 2009 so have BMW come up with any upgraded brakes for a 335 in this time?

[Matt2008]

Originally Posted by Alpina_B3_Lux

The BMW Performance brakes are not available for the 335i (and I don't think they'll ever be).

Alpina_B3_Lux

I guess that answers my question then

[E92Fan]

Originally Posted by Matt2008

I've been searching most of the evening about the BMW Performance Brakes and after several beers later, these brakes are:

1. not suitable for a 335d
2. Are ok on the 335d
3. not made for the 335d
4. Made for 1 series
5. The stock brakes on a 335d are better
6. BMW Performance Brakes are better than the stock brakes
7. I should spend 5-6k on a set
8. I should leave the originals on and forget about it
9. I should buy a faster car



In front of me i have a BMW performance catologue and it clearly shows these brakes are available for the 3 series yet in small print it says 'Product availabilty dependent on vehicle specification'.


Can someone confirm or just make me more confused if these BMW Performance Brakes are suitable for a 335d as i can't wait for the dealer to open tom

For me they are more for 'show' rather than charging around a track so would rather not spend £1000's on a set of 4 to be total overkill.
Also, despite the nice shiny yellow caliper, would the disc size look a little crappy on 19" 269 wheels compared to stock disc size?

A lot of the posts i've searched on are from 2008/early 2009 so have BMW come up with any upgraded brakes for a 335 in this time?

The bottom line is this -

1) The BMW Performance BBK can fit any of the 1er or 3er cars, except the M3

2) Although it can fit the 335i and 335d, BMW have not designed the BBK to be used on those two models, because it is more of a sideways step in braking performance than an increase in braking performance. On all other models up to and including the 330d and 330i pre-LCI, the BMW BBK can be used as sanctioned by BMW. On 330d and 330i LCI cars (ie. '09 model onwards) these have been upgraded to use the stock 335i/d style brakes, and therefore the BMW BBK is not sanctioned by BMW to be used on these LCI 330 models

3) BMW will NOT be producing a brake upgrade kit for the 335i or 335d, nor for the LCI 330i or 330d, as BMW have deemed those particular braking setups to be more than adequate for the power those cars produce.

[Dr Dave]

Very well put Tony.

The 335D brake discs are bigger and thicker than the BBK disc.
I did, somewhere, have all the disc sizes and thicknesses as I was in a similar position recently when I was researching the BBK for my 330d.

I'm just not looking forward to replacing the brake pads when the time arises - only available from BMW at £200!

[Matt2008]

Originally Posted by E92Fan

The bottom line is this -

1) The BMW Performance BBK can fit any of the 1er or 3er cars, except the M3

2) Although it can fit the 335i and 335d, BMW have not designed the BBK to be used on those two models, because it is more of a sideways step in braking performance than an increase in braking performance. On all other models up to and including the 330d and 330i pre-LCI, the BMW BBK can be used as sanctioned by BMW. On 330d and 330i LCI cars (ie. '09 model onwards) these have been upgraded to use the stock 335i/d style brakes, and therefore the BMW BBK is not sanctioned by BMW to be used on these LCI 330 models

3) BMW will NOT be producing a brake upgrade kit for the 335i or 335d, nor for the LCI 330i or 330d, as BMW have deemed those particular braking setups to be more than adequate for the power those cars produce.

Many thanks

I saw you recommended AP Racing brakes in another thread which look nice.
I'm guessing fitting these is a this a job for a more specialised company and won't be local to me?

[E92Fan]

Originally Posted by Matt2008

Many thanks

I saw you recommended AP Racing brakes in another thread which look nice.
I'm guessing fitting these is a this a job for a more specialised company and won't be local to me?

Any competent garage can install the AP Racing brakes. They're actually very easy to install. I myself don't know of any good independents in the Peterborough area, but I'm sure other members will soon pipe up with recommendations. Alternatively you can take a day trip and go to an AP stockist to have it all installed while you wait - it takes about three hours or so to do the fronts, including bleeding the brakes and changing brake fluid.

I think the fronts are around the £1900 + VAT mark, so expensive when compared to the BMW BBK, but lightyears better in terms of performance and durability.


I wrote the following when answering another member's question about BBK kits in general, and why the BMW BBK is so cheap in comparison to the more established products...

Originally Posted by E92Fan

The BMW BBK system is undeniably good value - 6pot Brembo calipers at the front, 4pot rears, drilled discs, different pads. For the money, it's unbeatable

However, you have asked a very valid question as to why they are so cheap. The thing with 6pot brakes is that across the range there is a HUGE variation in quality and performance.



Firstly, it would be an idea to understand a little bit about the design of multiple-pot calipers and the advantages/disadvantages of certain systems.

Generally, and in the most simplistic view, the most important aspects of a brake caliper design are -

a) the technical suitability of the caliper force in relation to the target vehicle
b) how evenly it distributes braking force across the entire face of the pad,
c) the heat resistant capability of that caliper in terms of the way it can dissipate heat away from the pads,
d) the long-term durability and reliability of the caliper
e) weight


There is a common misconception that the greater number of pots the better the braking system. A bigger set, or a greater number, of caliper pistons will provide more clamping pressure on that axle, but could also have a negative effect on total brake performance. If the pistons are too large for the application it will lead to excessive pedal travel and the front/rear brake balance will be adversely affected, resulting in longer stopping distances. Clamping forces can also become so strong that you'll end up locking the brakes far too early, making brake modulation and control very difficult.

In reality, the number of pots is not as important as the technical design and setup of each caliper to a particular vehicle. In the most simplistic terms, the greater the number of pistons/pots, the greater the surface area of pressure being applied to a brake pad, and hence the greater amount of friction generated (assuming the brake pad characteristics haven't changed in the comparison). However, it is more important that the correct braking force is distributed along the pad - having a more efficient 4pot system valved correctly for the vehicle will give much better braking performance than an oversized 6pot caliper with mismatched valving.

A larger brake caliper normally leads to using larger-sized pads - however, just because a pad is larger doesn't mean that there is more braking force. A bigger pad of the same compound in the same location as a smaller pad will not actually give shorter stopping distances. The stopping force or torque reaction is derived from the pad friction coefficient, the diameter of the brake disc and the amount of pressure applied. A bigger pad does not apply more pressure, only the same pressure over a bigger area. The advantage of a bigger pad lies in its heat capacity and rate of wear - the larger the pad, the more it will be able to absorb initial heat, thus suffering less thermal shock and with the consequent advantage of greater pad life.

However, there are sometimes problems with having larger pads - the popular Porsche calipers use a taller pad than most other systems, and whilst this taller pad gives slightly better heat characteristics, the system actually requires a heavier brake disc to match. This heavier disc has greater inertia and if the piston valving pressure is not adapted to suit, you actually end up with longer braking distances.

Piston/caliper design is also important - the cheaper calipers generally use stainless steel or aluminium alloy pistons coupled with simple dust boots, and are almost always of a two-piece cast aluminium design. The most expensive calipers may use titanium pistons (lighter and stronger), with much better high-temperature dust seals on each piston. They may also be of a forged monobloc design, which if designed using the correct alloys may well be stronger than a regular caliper, but may not necessarily be stiffer. A big brake kit will provide increased heat capacity, which means substantially more resistance to brake fade and caliper distortion with multiple stops from high speed. The stronger the caliper, the less the distortion and the more precise the braking performance. It will also give a firmer pedal due to stronger and stiffer components, as well as better modulation characteristics. The lighter the caliper the greater the reduction in unsprung weight, which will yield better handling and suspension characteristics on a properly setup car

Some calipers also use a differential bore design, in which smaller pistons are used up front, with larger pistons at the trailing edge of the caliper. As the surface of the brake disc heats up, the clamping force of the pistons has to be increased to maintain braking force (due to increasing fade). If the caliper has multiple pistons (or multiple pairs of pistons), the brake disc surface is initially heated by the pistons pushing against the brake pad at the leading edge of the caliper, making the disc surface hotter when it rotates back to the pistons closer to the trailing edge of the caliper. Therefore it helps if the pistons closer to the rear edge of the caliper are larger as they can deliver greater pressure.



So, with all that in mind then, why's the BMW BBK such good value?

Pros
Well, it's a basic 6 pot system (front), designed by Brembo as a two-piece aluminium caliper. It uses inexpensive standard compound Jurid/Textar brake pads (which are the regular BMW OEM pads), with basic one-piece drilled & slotted 338x26mm discs, simple individual piston dust seals and standard BMW brake hoses.

Because the caliper, and entire brake system, was designed as an OEM piece for the 135i, BMW have managed to drive the cost of that caliper down and hence can pass on the savings to the aftermarket customer. The only difference is the brake disc, which on the Performance kit is the same intrinsic disc but now drilled and slotted. The ancillaries have also been built down to a price - this is not being disrespectful to BMW, but in reality you can't imagine BMW using a £1500 brake system as standard on the 135i. For regular road use and as a standard no-thinking-required replacement for standard brakes it's a very good kit. The vast majority of BMW drivers would be very happy with this BBK as it's a fit-and-forget system And compared to the brakes on a 325i (not so much to a 335i/d) it's a vast improvement.


Cons
However, when you start exploring the higher limits of the BMW BBK there are several failings that become obvious. Firstly, it is next to impossible to get aftermarket pads for that caliper - because it's a BMW-specific caliper and not a standard Brembo shape, the likes of Pagid and Ferrodo have been very slow in developing aftermarket pads for that application. The regular BMW pads are ok for road use, but on the track they start to fade and judder very quickly. The more aggressive driver or track-day enthusiast will probably find the limits of the pad quite quickly. To be able to change to Pagid race pads for use on a track for example might be very important and necessary. Continuing this theme, it isn't easy to change the pads on the BMW BBK - the caliper has to come off. Compare that to the top-end Brembo kits where the pads are held in by quick-release pins and you can do a pad change in mere minutes.

The brake discs are one-piece items with integral bell (the bit that holds the disc onto the hub). There's no way to improve the brake disc by using aftermarket items from the likes of Performance Friction (who make arguably the world's best brake discs). The standard discs themselves also aren't as heat-resistant as they could be and will warp more easily under duress. The heat characteristics of the pistons also leave much to be desired - when out on track, under duress the pistons have a tendency to crack, whilst the seals will almost certainly disintegrate. This has been shown many times now on the 135i race cars. The caliper also displays quite uneven pressure distribution across the pistons - the last set of pads I used on my BMW BBK were noticeably warped with a 3.5mm height difference between the widest edges.

These problems only showed up when the brakes were put to more serious use. I discovered all this first hand at the Nurburgring last summer, when I subjected the brake system to only a moderately torturous test I was actually disappointed at how spectacularly the calipers failed I was reminded though that they are also spectacularly cheap and not really designed for that sort of abuse!! To BMWs credit they replaced that first kit with a new set of calipers..!

On normal road driving, the limits would not be anywhere close to being reached and so I would still recommend them as a significant performance upgrade to the standard brakes on anything up to a 330 (pre-LCI) under these conditions

I would NOT recommend the BMW BBK for someone with a 335i or 335d, or with an LCI 330i or 330d, as there are too many disadvantages going to the BBK compared with the regular OEM setup - the main problem is the discs are much smaller and thinner and can't absorb anywhere near the amount of heat that the OEM discs can



My thoughts

If you are looking to use the car on a track on more than the odd occasion, or do LOTS of high-speed driving, then I would suggest you look at a higher-spec alternative. There has been mention of the £4000/£6000 Brembo GT kits etc, which are fabulous but massively over-specced for use on anything other than fully-fledged race cars.

The Tarox kits have issues of their own - the cheap kits are exactly that - cheap and nasty. The 12pot systems are ridiculously expensive, and to be honest why on earth would anyone need a 12pot system? The individual pots themselves are tiny, the weight of the caliper is huge, and the performance doesn't justify the price.

Probably the best value kit, and the one I'm now using to great effect, is the AP Racing 6pot front / 4pot rear system. The front 6pot system is a two-piece cast aluminium design using 355x32mm slotted and vented discs with separate bells, aluminium alloy pistons with individual high-temp dust seals and comes supplied with mounting brackets, braided hoses, Ferrodo DS2500 fast-road pads, and Dot 5.1 brake fluid.

The rear system uses a 4-piston version of the same caliper, Ferrodo DS2500 pads, but uses the standard rear BMW OEM discs. I believe that Stillen Racing in the USA have a different version of the rear AP system that uses replacement discs as well.

I have been using the APs for two years now, and I have nothing negative to say about them at all. They've handled every track day I've thrown at them, the durability is excellent, pedal feel very firm yet progressive, and are a huge improvement over the BMW BBK which I had on previously. It's no wonder they are used on so many race cars at the Nurburgring as the performance/cost ratio is staggeringly good value.

Front AP kit (CP5575-1009.G8) is around £1,900 + VAT and fitting .
The rear kit (CP6625-1000BK) is around £890 + VAT and fitting.
(AP Racing product codes are for Black-coloured calipers - Red calipers also available)


Bottom line - for normal road use on anything up to a 330 (pre-LCI), get the BMW BBK. For serious use, get AP Racing brakes.

And if you have a 335i or 335d, or LCI 330i or d, but don't want to go to the expense of a proper BBK, then I suggest a brake fluid upgrade to Castrol Super Response Dot 4, a pad upgrade to something by Pagid or Cool Carbon or Ferodo, and a brake line upgrade to Goodridge Stainless Steel lines