[twinturbopg]

Hi guys...I'm looking for a good place to learn how to basically run my car on the track in Nor Cal, I would guess this would mean having an instructor in my car half of the day as a drive along and or all day with a combination of classroom instructions??? Or would be half drive along and the rest on my own on the track with some classroom time.

I'm trying to find the happy medium between cost and benefit. Also it doesn't have to be in my car alone...thanks!

[The HACK]

There's really only one place to get noob instructions.

BMW CCA.

This is the best bang for the buck if you've never been on the track before. Instruction second to none. Run like a freakin' boot-camp to ensure safety. They won't even let you make a pass unless the car in front of you allows you to make a pass, and ONLY IN CERTAIN DESIGNATED AREAS until you've progressed to a higher class/rank. Instructor with you at all times, in your passenger seat, including classroom sessions between your driving sessions. Especially out here in the West Coast there really is no better alternative in my not so humble opinion. Sure, there are plenty of groups out there like the Audi Club and POC and Hooked on Driving or Driving Concepts that uses the same subset of instructors, but you'll find that the cost is the same and it's typically run like a BMW CCA event.

it is the gold standard. And not because I instruct with and for the club. Because I've done/spectated/audited most of the available organizations out there. There are groups that will give you a ton of track time, there are groups that will offer you low price alternatives. But for a newbie? Can't beat the CCA. They stress the fundamentals of driving like few other. If you've done a half dozen CCA event and are a natural at it, sure, go explore other venues. In fact, I would ENCOURAGE you to try out as many venues as possible to get a sense of what risk level you're willing to accept. But if you're just starting out? Look no further than your local CCA club.

And beware of organizations that will let you go solo after a handful of events. Between 5-10 events is where the danger zone is. You've got enough experience to go faster but you have not mastered the skills required to drive consistently. It was right when I had about 5 events under my belt, I was blazing fast and moving up the ranks quickly, and made a simple mistake that almost could have cost my life (but luckily walked away unscathed and car, albeit dirty, with no damage) had the conditions been slightly different. At 5-10 events is when you're most dangerous to yourself, but you don't know it.

[The HACK]

In fact, BMW CCA is so strict that you are required to attend either an autocross or car control clinic before they'll allow you on track. I believe Golden Gate instituted this rule long time ago and a few local chapters are following suit.

[twinturbopg]

yah thats cool....I really want to keep it safe and of course have fun too, but not at the expense of safety. I will check them out.

Also I noticed ncracing have drive along instructor at Laguna but not so much classroom...I think the formal classroom starting off piece makes sense.

[twinturbopg]

wow I just looked @ BMW CCA there prices are quite high....$158 for the car clinic and another $335 for driving school....wow thats a lot of money

[kenneth]

Originally Posted by twinturbopg

wow I just looked @ BMW CCA there prices are quite high....$158 for the car clinic and another $335 for driving school....wow thats a lot of money

Not really if you compare it to BMW Driver training courses. You need to rent the track, pay the ambulance guys, the corner workers (flaggers), club insurance etc. etc. Plus you get instruction included in that price..... Check the price for renting the track for a full day and you will see that this is really a non-profit event!

[The HACK]

I'm going to let you in on a little secret.

This is NOT a cheap sport to get involved in. And it's only going to get significantly more expensive as you get faster. SIGNIFICANTLY.

Now, the question you should ask yourself is, would you rather spend some of the money up front, get all the good fundamentals about driving and driving fast down pat, and go on having a grand time spending a lot of disposable income...Or would you rather skip out on $$$ and not learn the proper fundamentals, crash your car in 5-6 events and never to come back to the sport ever again?

Actually option 2 would be cheaper.

[NavyBusa]

The 158 includes BMW CCA membership. If you are already a member the car control clinic is 110.00

[Joonsup]

i'm still new at the track because I've been to the track 3x. Once with my e92 and twice with my e30. The first time i went to was at Thunderhill through a group called norcal something. Prices were good. I think it was like $160 or so for the entire day and you got something like 3 classroom sessions, 3 practice sessions of what they taught you within the classroom, and 2 full track sessions. For an extra fee you could have an instructor ride with you.

To be honest I never went out on the track with an instructor so I just took it easy out there until i felt comfortable with all the turns on the track and taking the right lines "or what i thought were the right lines." If you can afford it, sign up with a group that has instructors because I'm sure you will learn a lot from them in a shorter time compared to relying on yourself. At the minimum you should take the beginner classroom sessions (although i think that's required if it's your first time).

I've only been to Thunderhill twice and Buttonwillow once. Everyone says those two have less or no walls at all compared to other tracks. Since you're in norcal your best bet is Thunderhill probably.

I can't wait till the weather gets better so I can go again

[valbauer]

Originally Posted by twinturbopg

yah thats cool....I really want to keep it safe and of course have fun too, but not at the expense of safety. I will check them out.

Also I noticed ncracing have drive along instructor at Laguna but not so much classroom...I think the formal classroom starting off piece makes sense.

Try skip barber at laguna seca

[zsapphire7]

sign up with nasa . And then sign up for HPDE-1 for thunder hill april 24-26 weekend! Theyll seat u with an instructor. Im gonna be going to going that weekend!

[twinturbopg]

Originally Posted by zsapphire7

sign up with nasa . And then sign up for HPDE-1 for thunder hill april 24-26 weekend! Theyll seat u with an instructor. Im gonna be going to going that weekend!

cool....thats a lot closer than buttonwillow....I was just checking out ncracing.com I emailed Dave, very informative and quick to reply...they have driving school there on June 5th and/or June 6th...1 day class that comprises of both classroom and track time...but there is not instructor sitting with you in the car, maybe towards the end of the day though....its only $109 for non-members and $99 for members...its a full day.

hmm let me read up on NASA and I will let you know April 24th is sooner too...and I probably wont have to stay in a hotel.

[The HACK]

One thing I will tell you...Having instructor in the car is vital to your development as a relatively inexperienced driver on track. No amount of classroom instruction or lead and follow is going to make up having your mistakes corrected before, during, and after they happen right away from the passenger seat.

Personally I would INSIST on in-car instructors for your first 5 events regardless of who or where you do your event from.

[jbass524]

Originally Posted by The HACK

One thing I will tell you...Having instructor in the car is vital to your development as a relatively inexperienced driver on track. No amount of classroom instruction or lead and follow is going to make up having your mistakes corrected before, during, and after they happen right away from the passenger seat.

Personally I would INSIST on in-car instructors for your first 5 events regardless of who or where you do your event from.

Amen Brother!!!!! Then every 3rd to 5th track day after that to keep the bad habits away.

[S4to335]

Originally Posted by zsapphire7

sign up with nasa . And then sign up for HPDE-1 for thunder hill april 24-26 weekend! Theyll seat u with an instructor. Im gonna be going to going that weekend!

NASA can be a bit hectic...I wouldnt go there your first time. I do suggest going to Thunderhill first..since it has the least about of walls you could possibly hit...just drive off the track and wave at the cows if you get in trouble. BTW, I am an instructor for BMWCCA, Audi Club, Hooked on Driving, and have been an instructor for Tracquest, NASA NorCal and SoCal.

[twinturbopg]

Originally Posted by S4to335

NASA can be a bit hectic...I wouldnt go there your first time. I do suggest going to Thunderhill first..since it has the least about of walls you could possibly hit...just drive off the track and wave at the cows if you get in trouble. BTW, I am an instructor for BMWCCA, Audi Club, Hooked on Driving, and have been an instructor for Tracquest, NASA NorCal and SoCal.

I was thinking the same thing...based off of reading there website....I was looking into ncracing for there event at buttonwillow....but its not one-on-one instruction its more so classroom and follow....

[twinturbopg]

I am trying to stay under $200...and find a one-on-one driving school....

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by twinturbopg

I am trying to stay under $200...and find a one-on-one driving school....

As someone who's had some experience organizing these type of events (I'm on the board of directors of one of the largest chapters of BMW CCA in the country and therefore in some indirect way is responsible for the track events our chapter put together), I'm going to let you in on another little secret.

You don't make money from these events, period. In fact, in the last 5 years we've lost a combined $30,000+ on our events held at Auto Club Speedway. And that's with charging attendees $500-$600 per weekend.

Here's the problem. If you look at it from purely the cost perspective, even for a one day event it will cost ~$120 per day just for the instructor's cost (room and board, lunch) at a track like Laguna Seca. Potentially you can have an instructor take 2 students, therefore defraying that cost to $60 per student. Laguna Seca, to my recollection, cost approximately $9,000 per day to rent. Say, by the grace of GOD you manage to sell out the event and get a total of 100 students for 4 driving sessions (because Laguna Seca can only accommodate 25 cars per session), JUST FOR THE TRACK RENTAL you're looking at $90 per student. Right now you're already at $150 per student cost factoring track rental and instructor alone.

A fully staffed event would require the addition of up to 6 corner workers at $200 a day and fire/safety at $1,000 a day, for a total of $2,200. So for a FULL school, at this point, you need to charge $172 just to BREAK EVEN. Add to that the cost of liability insurance (required by the track, another $1,000), room and board for a minimum of 5 staffers ($600), we're already at $188 without even going into other miscellaneous costs such as water, lunch for the student, PA system, radio rental for corner workers, cost of laniards, badges, and badge holders...etc.

And this is all with NONE of the instructors getting any potential track time.

I don't know if this break-down helps at all, but to find an event at ANY local California track, with one-on-one instruction, for less than $200 is a pipe dream, unless the organization running it is planning on losing $2,000-$5,000 per day.

I don't want to be rude, but this is the reality of things. This is a very EXPENSIVE sport, especially out on the West coast. My carpool buddy is an avid, life-long golfer and has been doing DEs for about 6 years, and he said that it is cheaper to pick up golf. So, if $200 a day is too much for your wallet, I would SERIOUSLY suggest that you walk away from it right now. Because once you do it, and get hooked on it, there's quite a bit of potential of throwing away $10,000 a year on this and then some.

[twinturbopg]

Its all good 'the hack' I appreciate the break down, and I do respect the racing clubs out. And more so also appreciate you just telling the facts and not ripping me apart for dreaming. Its just a number I have in mind...so we shall see what happens, I guess I will just have to go for the non-one-on-one instruction which is fine. I say this now but I would like to go probably once or twice a year max to the track if I do like the track experience.

[The HACK]

I fully understand, I hope I haven't turned you off of the sport...Not everyone in this sport is as blunt as I am, but I think you will quickly find out that they're all very welling to help and give pointers to you. So I suggest going into it, with whatever organization you're running with, with an open mind and open ear.

Having said that. I will also point out that you drive a very expensive car. $500 for a weekend is but a very small price to pay compared to the cost of the car. But if it really is a set budget (and I commend you for your fiscal responsibility, something most here in America, including myself, lacks), you should look into an auto-cross or a car control clinic first to get your feet wet. The Golden Gate chapter of the BMW CCA has an excellent program in both regards:

Car Control Clinic:
http://www.ggcbmwcca.org/?page=calendar&id=480

Auto-Cross:
http://www.ggcbmwcca.org/?page=calendar&id=488

Both events combined for less than $200. Lots of one-on-one instruction but at a lower speed (and risk) than a track event, but potentially it gives you some exposure and some very good basic skills to go with driving at a much higher speed on track.

At least, that's what I would recommend.

[twinturbopg]

awesome thanks! I really appreciate that...I will take a look