[vasillalov]

Well folks,

I recently heard from a highly reputable BMW Master Mechanic that the design of the turbo components on the N54 and N55 engines were outsourced to VW.

After giving it some thought, I am beginning to see some clues that seem to confirm that "rumor":

The turbos are integrated into the manifold: typical for VW/AUDI turbo engines
The turbos are small and restrictive: again, typical for VW/AUDI turbo engines
The engine runs hot and has oil cooling problems: a result of poor design.

So what to you guys think?

[Express]

who cares? what are you going to do about it now? return your car?

[caradd]

So we have vw designed mitsubishi turbos? I would not be surprised with all the cost cutting measures employed by companies today.

[Kalud]

Originally Posted by vasillalov

Well folks,
The engine runs hot and has oil cooling problems: a result of poor design.

So what to you guys think?

I think that you give your opinion on the design based on no actual fact, maybe you're a motor designer / mechanical engineer... If so, then discard my comment.

For you information, as far as bmw documentation can be considered as factual information (maybe not always) but it looks like the "engine runs hot" is for a purpose of better fuel economy and performance. Have a look to the N55 training documentation:

[BQTuning]

Originally Posted by vasillalov

Well folks,

I recently heard from a highly reputable BMW Master Mechanic that the design of the turbo components on the N54 and N55 engines were outsourced to VW.

After giving it some thought, I am beginning to see some clues that seem to confirm that "rumor":

The turbos are integrated into the manifold: typical for VW/AUDI turbo engines
The turbos are small and restrictive: again, typical for VW/AUDI turbo engines
The engine runs hot and has oil cooling problems: a result of poor design.

So what to you guys think?

My thought on this is that BMW was thinking about efficiency, and this how Germans do things when it come to Turbo design.

I do not think it was a result of poor design but a deliberate design to market other stuff like BMW Performance. More money for them.

You can add another radiator to the car, and perhaps a second OC ? Enough of everything was left open to be added to this car.

Turbos, manifold, OC , radiator, CAI, exhaust can all be modified for the better or to where the car should be to meet our "driving habbits" or performance we expect.

[tscdennab]

Originally Posted by Kalud

I think that you give your opinion on the design based on no actual fact, maybe you're a motor designer / mechanical engineer... If so, then discard my comment.

For you information, as far as bmw documentation can be considered as factual information (maybe not always) but it looks like the "engine runs hot" is for a purpose of better fuel economy and performance. Have a look to the N55 training documentation:

Very nice info ! Do you have the N54-specific info too ? Are they similar ?

[Kalud]

Originally Posted by tscdennab

Very nice info ! Do you have the N54-specific info too ? Are they similar ?

Yes sure:

[Cloud9blue]

Originally Posted by Kalud

I think that you give your opinion on the design based on no actual fact, maybe you're a motor designer / mechanical engineer... If so, then discard my comment.

For you information, as far as bmw documentation can be considered as factual information (maybe not always) but it looks like the "engine runs hot" is for a purpose of better fuel economy and performance. Have a look to the N55 training documentation:

+1
Believe it or not, higher operating temp translates to better fuel efficiency. It is a simple fact of thermodynamic. BMW did not design the engine this way so that the customers can spend more money the upgraded cooling fans from the performance package.

[vase330]

Originally Posted by vasillalov

Well folks,

I recently heard from a highly reputable BMW Master Mechanic that the design of the turbo components on the N54 and N55 engines were outsourced to VW.

After giving it some thought, I am beginning to see some clues that seem to confirm that "rumor":

The turbos are integrated into the manifold: typical for VW/AUDI turbo engines
The turbos are small and restrictive: again, typical for VW/AUDI turbo engines
The engine runs hot and has oil cooling problems: a result of poor design.

So what to you guys think?

NOT True! The Turbos were sourced from the biggest Turbo manufacturer in the world Mitsubishi. They make Turbos for everything from small marine applications to the huge cruise ships. IDK who does VW Turbos, but ask around.

[soulja620]

It's all good..

Bugatti pushes Mitsubishi turbos

[vase330]

Its funny how people just assume that because a company makes cheap products its because they don't have technology or they don't know how to make high end stuff. They don't even realize the much touted torque vectoring AWD like that in the X6 was not a BMW first. Mitsubishi invented it back in the 80s with their rally cars. They also invented 4Wheel Steering then licensed technology to Honda who put it into consumer cars. Proved unprofitable at the time as both Mitsubishi and Honda found out. No one cared much past the Wow factor. Consequently their later cars didn't offer it.

Economic considerations are king in what a company chooses to do. And that depends on their branding and approach. BMW has a brand that Mitsubishi doesn't, but Mitsubishi used to make more total profits with their volume approach. Thats not working so well for them anymore as people started associating them with crapy cars. BMW is slowly loosing its exclusive image as it branches to more and more markets and segments in such of more and more profits, so eventually the image will get diluted to the point they may have to consider a luxury division like Toyota did with Lexus and many other makers followed suit. Just saying. Those folks thinking the 1M or the 335 is destined for a collectors item are sorely wrong. These cars are all over the place in many places that people don't look anymore when you go past. Also 335 is not unique in any way shape or form. There are now alternatives fron Infiniti, Lexus, etc. 335 was merely the first of a new bleed of mass market mid size rockets, much the same way the Evo was first in its segment. With all the copy cats springing up all over the place... soon it will be nothing special. So neither does BMW have an exclusive on the Turbo geometry. Hyndai which Mitsubishi owns part off can source the same Turbos as can a variety others. When press talks about BMW designed this type Turbo, its not the case really. They put out a spec for what they need Mitsubishi designs and builds it or offers something they already have in their portfolio. Much the same way the Steptronic, and DCT "belong" to BMW. Infact they don't they are sourced from ZF or even GM in the case of the E46 Steptronic. BMW has ability to customize the software that runs the unit. But news of the same unit in a Chevy, Cadillac might make you

So the much gashed about 8-speed in the newer BMWs is infact in everything from Porsche, Rolls Royce, Range Rover, Audi and VW among others. Its not limited to BMW. And now ZF just released a 9-speed for passenger cars!! Its become like the computer industry where your high-end apple Macs run the same Intel chipset in the down market Dell. Did you know BMW used to source their 4 cylinder BMW and Mini engines from Toyota? That their hybrid technology was designed and developed jointly with GM and Mercedes so there hybrid Chevys that use same hybrid power train you paying through the nose for in a BMW and Mercedes and then getting into a pissing contest with the other guys ha ha. They just go parts shopping from each other put together bunch of components and you buy that package. So Mitsubishi Turbos in the BMW is hardly such a bad thing. But finding out Mitubishi Turbos are in Mitsubishi's, Hyndai, Even Snagyo (aargh), Subaru might make us frown until you hear Buggatti and suddenly you get this snobbish Oh really? Feeling. Imagine someone who just plucked all that $$$ for a Buggati hearing his Turbos came from the same parts bin that Sangyo or Hyundai is raiding.

[jimk]

Thanks for sharing these Kalud. This is good stuff...

[pimple]

Originally Posted by Kalud

... Have a look to the N55 training documentation:
...

Kalud, would you have the full document and would you mind posting it here please?

[Ryan Mills]

Originally Posted by vase330

NOT True! The Turbos were sourced from the biggest Turbo manufacturer in the world Mitsubishi. They make Turbos for everything from small marine applications to the huge cruise ships. IDK who does VW Turbos, but ask around.

IHI makes the turbos for the VW TSI 2.0T.

[chris328i]

I highly doubt BMW outsources their design work to VW. VW/Audi were the first to popularize small turbos, intake and exhaust piping for quick boost on gas and diesel engines.This dramatically improves drivablity at the expense of reduced top end power.

[onesuperboi]

What's the point of this thread?

[Kalud]

Originally Posted by jimk

Thanks for sharing these Kalud. This is good stuff...

Originally Posted by pimple

Kalud, would you have the full document and would you mind posting it here please?

Its around for some time now, a lot of information in there...

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=501479

Documents used for quotes:
ST916 - N55 Engine

Also a sticky in the n54/n55 section:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38856

Engine management section.

[flip4335]

Originally Posted by Kalud

Its around for some time now, a lot of information in there...

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=501479

Documents used for quotes:
ST916 - N55 Engine

Also a sticky in the n54/n55 section:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38856

Engine management section.

Good stuff. Thanks!

[Tiago@VRSF]

What you perceive as a motor overheating in reality is emissions related. The faster the car warms up the more efficient combustion becomes. If your car overheats at the track it's because you're at the track with a stock cooling system. Do the math.

[Skydive]

Having come from a substantially technical background a late model Audi/VW tuning enthusiast turned businessman with specific focus on turbos and forced induction modification, I will add my two cents...

Other than the fact that the two manufacturers use low volume, low boost turbochargers in passenger applications, (common to almost late model turbocharged passenger car in this application), the two systems are very different.

When the N54 was introduced, VAG was using separate manifold and turbocharger components, whereas BMW's design used turbofolds.

BMW uses water cooled Mitsubishi turbochargers.

VAG has had a long standing relationship with KKK/Borg Warner and uses these (oil cooled) turbochargers.

The symbology is similar. The envelopes of operation are similar. Both designs are German. Both systems are low-volume, low-boost for reasons of efficiency of operation. That's where the similarities end. In fact, from a technical standpoint, the two implementations are largely very different.

If you've ever driven a small displacement car with a high volume turbocharger, you know exactly why both manufacturers use low volume/low drag turbochargers.

I very much doubt VAG had anything directly to do with the design of the BMW FI system, nor did BMW have anything directly to do with VAG's design, though it wouldn't be at all surprising if one or some engineers "switched teams" one way or the other at some point, which is probably not at all uncommon.

-Michael