Sway bar question

e90pilot · 03-01-2011, 01:24 AM

Stick with the stock front sway and see where your balance sits. Did you order the M3 rear subframe bushings? You have to drop the rear subframe to replace the rear sway so it's a good opportunity to replace the bushings.

berserkerx · 03-01-2011, 03:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by e90pilot

Stick with the stock front sway and see where your balance sits. Did you order the M3 rear subframe bushings? You have to drop the rear subframe to replace the rear sway so it's a good opportunity to replace the bushings.

I didn't order those but since it will be a while before I put in the sway I will order those and put them in. Is it recommended to replace the sway links with the sway bar?

Then one other question is this something a backyard mechanic can do or should a shop do it?

berserkerx · 03-01-2011, 04:24 AM

Does 400 sound about right for the rear subframe bushings? Is this basically a thing like replacing a water pump with a timing belt change its just a really good idea??

e90pilot · 03-01-2011, 01:14 PM

If you're a novice mechanic, this is not something you should try. Dropping the rear subframe is a complicated process, and removing the subframe bushings requires special tools. $400 for bushings sound a little steep. They should be less than $300. Labor is gonna be intense. I think it's 5hrs for the rear sway. If you know an experienced mechanic, then you can give it a shot with his/her help.

berserkerx · 03-01-2011, 02:03 PM

Yeah I am good with engine work not with body or suspension. Where can I find the bushings? I looked at bavauto and turner and they both were around 400.

I just wanted to say thanks again for the information and all the help. Especially you pilot you didn't need to take the pictures like you did but that helped a lot.

yerv818 · 03-01-2011, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by berserkerx

I didn't order those but since it will be a while before I put in the sway I will order those and put them in. Is it recommended to replace the sway links with the sway bar?

Then one other question is this something a backyard mechanic can do or should a shop do it?

my friend installed mine for me in his front yard so this is definatly not worthy of spending 300-400$ on esp if you have power tools...its mainly just taking out bolts and putting them back if you dont have a freind that can help u with this i suggest u read up and find a diy on it or just wait till u get ur aftermarket suspension cause 400$ for just a rear sway is a ripppp...just my 2 cents

The HACK · 03-01-2011, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yerv818

my friend installed mine for me in his front yard so this is definatly not worthy of spending 300-400$ on esp if you have power tools...its mainly just taking out bolts and putting them back if you dont have a freind that can help u with this i suggest u read up and find a diy on it or just wait till u get ur aftermarket suspension cause 400$ for just a rear sway is a ripppp...just my 2 cents

I'm afraid that the rear subframe bolts needs to be torqued down to a specific tightness AND I think they're one use only. Plus they need to be tightened down while the suspension is loaded. Almost all the chassis bolts are stretched and angle torqued so you can't re-use them.

Don't be surprised if that rear subframe falls apart on you in the near future, especially if your buddy installed it in his front yard.

orionredwing · 03-01-2011, 03:12 PM

I was recently shopping for sways, and just had the front M3 sway bar installed to complement my KW v3 w/ Swift Springs (swapped out for higher linear rate springs). I track my car, and w/ just the front sway upgrade, I felt a noticeable difference in body roll reduction that allowed me to make smoother steering inputs.

However, I DID NOT upgrade the rear sway bar. Even though the rear sway bar is TINY, I was advised not to swap this out, as it will actually cause my car to lose traction on track. They tested it on track a few times, and at the limits, the rear breaks loose too easily.

Makes sense when I think about it. Sure, the rear becomes firmer from the upgraded sways, so on the street, it feels like your car is more planted and balanced. However, at the traction limit, the most extreme analogy I can think of is that it behaves as if you're sliding on water (exaggerated, but you can picture what I mean).

So for those researching sway bar upgrades, just be careful. Keep in mind you have to consider your whole suspension setup as well as your DRIVING skill. In this case, cars (like mine) are equipped with higher linear rate springs and it was recommended NOT to upgrade the rear sway bar.

After 2-3 years of tracking my car, I've come to appreciate and respect the complex art of suspension tuning. I used to think you can just slap on a bunch of suspension upgrades and call it done. How naive I was back then

In some ways, it's harder to tune, because spirited street driving only gives you a quick feel in a corner...then you need to cruise for some time to hit the next spot or come back. Plus you're also constrained by road conditions, and I doubt you'd feel comfortable driving at the limits w/ risk of spinning your car out in those street corners. So a few quick feels with many minutes of pause in between doesn't make for easy tuning. That's why I always get the best feedback from a track day. ~100 mins of non-stop cornering is the best way to get a consistent feel of your suspension setup matched to your driving skill.

yerv818 · 03-01-2011, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The HACK

I'm afraid that the rear subframe bolts needs to be torqued down to a specific tightness AND I think they're one use only. Plus they need to be tightened down while the suspension is loaded. Almost all the chassis bolts are stretched and angle torqued so you can't re-use them.

Don't be surprised if that rear subframe falls apart on you in the near future, especially if your buddy installed it in his front yard.

when he installed mine we didnt changed any bolts we just reused them and everything is fine so far ...and as for the specific tightness im not sure either he was just using power tools...havent heard any noises or anything or seen anything funny yet

yerv818 · 03-01-2011, 03:20 PM

honestly my ass does give out when i push it hard on the turns but its so composed that even while sliding i can controll it no prob it just adds to the fun of driving the car

The HACK · 03-01-2011, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yerv818

when he installed mine we didnt changed any bolts we just reused them and everything is fine so far ...and as for the specific tightness im not sure either he was just using power tools...havent heard any noises or anything or seen anything funny yet

Wow.

The rear subframe is not something to be toyed with. If he did not use a proper torque wrench and reused the bolts, I would suggest you take the car to a local mechanic or the dealership and have all the bolts replaced and re-torqued.

Not to be a doom-bringer, but IF any of the bolts failed at high-way speeds?

Good luck pal. But $400 isn't too much to ask to have the rear subframe removed and reinstalled IMO. I'm shocked and surprised at how "cavalier" some of you seems to take some of the vital components of your vehicles.

yerv818 · 03-01-2011, 03:28 PM

hes UTI certified<3

The HACK · 03-01-2011, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yerv818

hes UTI certified<3

That's great. I've got an online MBA from University of Phoenix. Doesn't mean I'm qualified to run a company.

Not to knock on your buddy's mechanic skills. But I'd be VERY surprised if your car survives for another year. VERY. SURPRISED.

Especially with how much stress these rear subframes go through, I wouldn't trust "power tools" on stretched bolts.

But hey. It's your life.

berserkerx · 03-01-2011, 06:25 PM

I called my mechanic today and he quoted me 326 for the sway. So I think I may just wait till i get my pss10s and have him install them all. I am still looking for a better price on the bushings.

I have a lot of power tools and my father in law and my dad are great mechanics. I am a decent mechanic myself but there are just somethings that I believe should be done by a professional.

I know that I can't just throw suspension parts at it. I learned my lesson with previous vehicles. thanks again for the replies.

yerv818 · 03-01-2011, 06:29 PM

u only live once =] lol

berserkerx · 04-26-2011, 08:24 PM

Sorry for bumping my old thread. But I thought I would show off my new toy.
Please I know that it is not at all functional so don't tell me that I just like the way it looks.

On a side note my sway bar for the back is waiting to be put in!! Once the bushings get here then it will go in.

I just noticed in your pictures pilot is that the performance BBK hiding behind those wheels?

03-01-2011, 01:24 AM	#23
e90pilot Freight Dawg 108 Rep 2,103 Posts Drives: E90 325i Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Oakland, CA iTrader: (3)	Stick with the stock front sway and see where your balance sits. Did you order the M3 rear subframe bushings? You have to drop the rear subframe to replace the rear sway so it's a good opportunity to replace the bushings. __________________ --Marcelo '06 Arctic Metallic 325i \| Sport Package \| 6MT \| Dinan Stage III suspension \| Dinan exhaust \| 330i manifold swap! Click here! \| Active Autowerke tune \| 135i Brake Calipers \| Deiselboost caliper brackets \| E46 M3 front rotors
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03-01-2011, 04:24 AM	#25
berserkerx Private First Class 8 Rep 164 Posts Drives: 2006 330i Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Utah iTrader: (0)	Does 400 sound about right for the rear subframe bushings? Is this basically a thing like replacing a water pump with a timing belt change its just a really good idea??
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03-01-2011, 01:14 PM	#26
e90pilot Freight Dawg 108 Rep 2,103 Posts Drives: E90 325i Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Oakland, CA iTrader: (3)	If you're a novice mechanic, this is not something you should try. Dropping the rear subframe is a complicated process, and removing the subframe bushings requires special tools. $400 for bushings sound a little steep. They should be less than $300. Labor is gonna be intense. I think it's 5hrs for the rear sway. If you know an experienced mechanic, then you can give it a shot with his/her help. __________________ --Marcelo '06 Arctic Metallic 325i \| Sport Package \| 6MT \| Dinan Stage III suspension \| Dinan exhaust \| 330i manifold swap! Click here! \| Active Autowerke tune \| 135i Brake Calipers \| Deiselboost caliper brackets \| E46 M3 front rotors
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03-01-2011, 02:03 PM	#27
berserkerx Private First Class 8 Rep 164 Posts Drives: 2006 330i Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Utah iTrader: (0)	Yeah I am good with engine work not with body or suspension. Where can I find the bushings? I looked at bavauto and turner and they both were around 400. I just wanted to say thanks again for the information and all the help. Especially you pilot you didn't need to take the pictures like you did but that helped a lot.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

03-01-2011, 03:12 PM	#30
orionredwing Captain 111 Rep 728 Posts Drives: 335i Sedan, 135i Coupe Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: San Jose iTrader: (0) Garage List 2007 335i [10.00]	I was recently shopping for sways, and just had the front M3 sway bar installed to complement my KW v3 w/ Swift Springs (swapped out for higher linear rate springs). I track my car, and w/ just the front sway upgrade, I felt a noticeable difference in body roll reduction that allowed me to make smoother steering inputs. However, I DID NOT upgrade the rear sway bar. Even though the rear sway bar is TINY, I was advised not to swap this out, as it will actually cause my car to lose traction on track. They tested it on track a few times, and at the limits, the rear breaks loose too easily. Makes sense when I think about it. Sure, the rear becomes firmer from the upgraded sways, so on the street, it feels like your car is more planted and balanced. However, at the traction limit, the most extreme analogy I can think of is that it behaves as if you're sliding on water (exaggerated, but you can picture what I mean). So for those researching sway bar upgrades, just be careful. Keep in mind you have to consider your whole suspension setup as well as your DRIVING skill. In this case, cars (like mine) are equipped with higher linear rate springs and it was recommended NOT to upgrade the rear sway bar. After 2-3 years of tracking my car, I've come to appreciate and respect the complex art of suspension tuning. I used to think you can just slap on a bunch of suspension upgrades and call it done. How naive I was back then In some ways, it's harder to tune, because spirited street driving only gives you a quick feel in a corner...then you need to cruise for some time to hit the next spot or come back. Plus you're also constrained by road conditions, and I doubt you'd feel comfortable driving at the limits w/ risk of spinning your car out in those street corners. So a few quick feels with many minutes of pause in between doesn't make for easy tuning. That's why I always get the best feedback from a track day. ~100 mins of non-stop cornering is the best way to get a consistent feel of your suspension setup matched to your driving skill. __________________ PROcede \| AMS FMIC \| AR Catless DPs \| AR Oil Cooler \| BMS DCI Wavetrac LSD \| KW V3 w/ Swift Springs \| M3 Front Suspension Last edited by orionredwing; 03-01-2011 at 03:20 PM..
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03-01-2011, 03:20 PM	#32
yerv818 Lieutenant 20 Rep 425 Posts Drives: 2010 blk/red 328 sedan Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: la crescenta CA iTrader: (2)	honestly my ass does give out when i push it hard on the turns but its so composed that even while sliding i can controll it no prob it just adds to the fun of driving the car __________________ BMX powerbox/H&R RACE springs/eibach pro dampers/H&R sways/cyba scoops/k&n drop in/blk grille/blk reflectors/19in LUXE CSL rep/hamman cf lip
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03-01-2011, 03:28 PM	#34
yerv818 Lieutenant 20 Rep 425 Posts Drives: 2010 blk/red 328 sedan Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: la crescenta CA iTrader: (2)	hes UTI certified<3 __________________ BMX powerbox/H&R RACE springs/eibach pro dampers/H&R sways/cyba scoops/k&n drop in/blk grille/blk reflectors/19in LUXE CSL rep/hamman cf lip
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03-01-2011, 06:25 PM	#36
berserkerx Private First Class 8 Rep 164 Posts Drives: 2006 330i Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Utah iTrader: (0)	I called my mechanic today and he quoted me 326 for the sway. So I think I may just wait till i get my pss10s and have him install them all. I am still looking for a better price on the bushings. I have a lot of power tools and my father in law and my dad are great mechanics. I am a decent mechanic myself but there are just somethings that I believe should be done by a professional. I know that I can't just throw suspension parts at it. I learned my lesson with previous vehicles. thanks again for the replies.
	Appreciate 0 Quote

03-01-2011, 06:29 PM	#37
yerv818 Lieutenant 20 Rep 425 Posts Drives: 2010 blk/red 328 sedan Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: la crescenta CA iTrader: (2)	u only live once =] lol __________________ BMX powerbox/H&R RACE springs/eibach pro dampers/H&R sways/cyba scoops/k&n drop in/blk grille/blk reflectors/19in LUXE CSL rep/hamman cf lip
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04-26-2011, 08:24 PM	#38
berserkerx Private First Class 8 Rep 164 Posts Drives: 2006 330i Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Utah iTrader: (0)	Sorry for bumping my old thread. But I thought I would show off my new toy. Please I know that it is not at all functional so don't tell me that I just like the way it looks. On a side note my sway bar for the back is waiting to be put in!! Once the bushings get here then it will go in. I just noticed in your pictures pilot is that the performance BBK hiding behind those wheels?
	Appreciate 0 Quote