[mid-corner fun]

Originally Posted by UltraRacer13

Where in that thread is that conclusion reached exactly?

I came here to write the same, I must have missed all those radiator posts when I did the summary of that thread :-)

There are several reports of aftermarket OCs in that thread along with their associated temp improvements at the track and zero feedback on upgraded radiator results. Here's the latest chart:

[tibra1]

^Well thats b/c there are far more vendors selling and guys runing oil coolers than upgraded radiators.

HP Autowerks time attack team ran their car w the stock oil cooler and their upgraded water radiator and never saw oil temps in excess of 265 and water temps would recovery quickly to 190.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7865185

Post #38 & 41

If its a choice between $1k for an OC or $1K for a performance water radiator..i will take the water radiator b/c it address the water cooling issue directly AND the oil temps indirectly. This set up has been proven to work in a time attack race ..so this is the route Im going...never mind that I know Harold and would not doubt him for a sec.

[tibra1]

Originally Posted by vasillalov

It is in the stickie thread in the Track and AutoX forum. Yeah, upgraded radiator provides A LOT more cooling capacity than an oil cooler.

We are thinking along similar lines..and this is not even taking into account the various water coolant mixes u can run..a water performance radiator is just so much more versatile

[Bakeme521]

Originally Posted by tibra1

And for the price they charge for these u would think the lines would be pretty much bullet proof and routed perfectly.

Disagree, Those lines rotate and even though they are correct for the application it is all dependent on the installer to make sure the lines aren't rubbing anything, esp on a fan. I don't care how bullet proof the lines are, if they are constantly rubbing on a spinning fan eventually they will fail. Lets not turn this into thread bashing AR's product.

And OP, I am sure it was fine. Just b/c you took a quart out doesn't mean thats all that was in there.

[Bimmer This]

Looks to me like it was an installation error and not the product.

[tibra1]

I dont disagree either..its entirely possible that the lines were routed in direct contact w the fan ..

I have no experience w any aftmarket OCs i just said if they arent perfect fitting and routed that would be silly b/c for the money u should get that no question

[dzenno]

Sucks that it happened to so many of you guys two things: AR needs to definitely do "something" about this, may be as simple as additional install instructions on routing lines or even changing their lengths if they're too long for any reason...given this is being sold as a purpose built kit with great fitment this should never be possible unless it's really just bad installs...from the sound of the posts in this thread it leads me to believe that fitment of those lines could be improved on..

[mid-corner fun]

Originally Posted by tibra1

^Well thats b/c there are far more vendors selling and guys runing oil coolers than upgraded radiators.

and why do you think that is?

Originally Posted by tibra1

HP Autowerks time attack team ran their car w the stock oil cooler and their upgraded water radiator and never saw oil temps in excess of 265 and water temps would recovery quickly to 190.

you posted a time attack example, try to find some results for a 20-30 min session so we can *actually* compare oil and water temp results.

As I said, we have a 500+ post thread on the track forum and not one forum member has reported track results for aftermarket radiators. On the other hand, several have aftermarket OCs and have reported actual numbers. I'm not questioning whether an aftermarket radiator will help, it definitely will, I'm questioning the statement that the radiator will help more, with no actual data to back that up. If you have actual radiator data, send them in.

[ar design]

Originally Posted by Bimmer This

Looks to me like it was an installation error and not the product.

We have had a handful of customers with improperly routed oil lines that chafed through the hoses. We have since switched to stainless steel lines that will eliminate the possibility of routing the hoses incorrectly. We have sent replacement hoses out at no charge to any customers with issues.

[tibra1]

^I never said i was citing statistical data..its anectodotal but considering the source I beleive it to be very credible..The only reason u havent seen data is b/c performance water radiators have been VERY slow to come to market, while OCs on the other hand were quick b/c of peoples initial reactions to abnormally high oil temps when racing.

Im not saying an additional OC is not beneficial..but from a cost benefit analysis the existing ones do not make the grade in my book..$1K for slightly larger capacity and marginally cooling or a second OC placed in front of the water radiator?? N by running these OCs what have u done for water temps..nothing.

IMO if u gonna do a secondary OC then it s/b mounted in the front of the drivers side wheel well and run both OCs in series..and Im not willing to spend and undertake that..so for me its upgraded water radiator n stock OC to solve my issues..car can be tracked reasonable w this setup.

If you enjoy ur setup then ..

Re-routing and messing with oil lines chancing leaks or tears is DEF not for me
At the end of the day my car is a street car first and race car second.

[zsapphire7]

Originally Posted by PeterM1

I'm not questioning whether an aftermarket radiator will help, it definitely will, I'm questioning the statement that the radiator will help more, with no actual data to back that up. If you have actual radiator data, send them in.

Yea, i was just pointing this out. Not saying you may not be right or not, its just posting up information with 0 data doesnt help anyone. I understand that thers no data cuz theres no released radiator at the moment. Id like to see the data though if it did exist.

[MikeVictor]

I think is why some companies like ER will opt for braided nylon oil lines, as you don't get the same fraying on the metal lines experienced in the posts above.

[onesuperboi]

Originally Posted by zsapphire7

Yea, i was just pointing this out. Not saying you may not be right or not, its just posting up information with 0 data doesnt help anyone. I understand that thers no data cuz theres no released radiator at the moment. Id like to see the data though if it did exist.

There isn't enough data on an aftermarket radiator. However, I was surprised from the data table from the results of having an oil cooler. Look how many people still went into limp mode or reduced power. So, it seems that an additional oil cooler doesn't help too much in keeping oil temps in check.

[UltraRacer13]

Originally Posted by onesuperboi

There isn't enough data on an aftermarket radiator. However, I was surprised from the data table from the results of having an oil cooler. Look how many people still went into limp mode or reduced power. So, it seems that an additional oil cooler doesn't help too much in keeping oil temps in check.

Your last statement is broad, incorrect and shows poor deduction on your part. You are saying some have still had problems, ergo all don't work. Not true. I have the Stett- (see the chart) and also in the chart you will notice that has solved the limp mode/cooling issue entirely for me. If I had an AT, it might be different, but on my MT problem solved.

Also, if you read the thread, you will find some of the limp modes were not heat induced.

[UltraRacer13]

Originally Posted by tibra1

^I never said i was citing statistical data..its anectodotal but considering the source I beleive it to be very credible..The only reason u havent seen data is b/c performance water radiators have been VERY slow to come to market, while OCs on the other hand were quick b/c of peoples initial reactions to abnormally high oil temps when racing.

Im not saying an additional OC is not beneficial..but from a cost benefit analysis the existing ones do not make the grade in my book..$1K for slightly larger capacity and marginally cooling or a second OC placed in front of the water radiator?? N by running these OCs what have u done for water temps..nothing.

IMO if u gonna do a secondary OC then it s/b mounted in the front of the drivers side wheel well and run both OCs in series..and Im not willing to spend and undertake that..so for me its upgraded water radiator n stock OC to solve my issues..car can be tracked reasonable w this setup.

If you enjoy ur setup then ..

Re-routing and messing with oil lines chancing leaks or tears is DEF not for me
At the end of the day my car is a street car first and race car second.

Conjecture and anecdotes get us nowhere. Install your radiator and put up some facts, otherwise you are adding nothing here.

[tibra1]

^I wasnt trying to convince anyone..just merely stating my point based on years of looking into this..I dont believe that any of the aftermarket OCs w/ their design are the solution for the temp/reduced power issues as Onesuperboi very observerly pointed out..and certainly not at the price point they are being sold for

You argument that a particular set up works for u doesnt add anything to this thread either.

As for when I get my hands on the performance radiator..I most def will report back...stay tuned or not..this is not meant to be an argument in any way..either accept the possibility for a diff setup ..or follow the masses..ur choice.

[Turkeybaster115]

Originally Posted by Bakeme521

Disagree, Those lines rotate and even though they are correct for the application it is all dependent on the installer to make sure the lines aren't rubbing anything, esp on a fan. I don't care how bullet proof the lines are, if they are constantly rubbing on a spinning fan eventually they will fail. Lets not turn this into thread bashing AR's product

Nobody is bashing AR's product. Piss poor design on their part in terms of using cloth (nylon) lines, however, they seem to have upgraded the materials used in the lines. This is potentially a VERY serious issue, as I and several others nearly lost our motors. People who have the nylon lines need to upgrade to SS, or check them very religiously. Lastly, We all couldn't have installed the lines wrong. It doesn't take much to tear nylon, and the rubbing, was against plastic edges. Not one rubbed against the fan.

[Turkeybaster115]

Originally Posted by tibra1

^I never said i was citing statistical data..its anectodotal but considering the source I beleive it to be very credible..The only reason u havent seen data is b/c performance water radiators have been VERY slow to come to market, while OCs on the other hand were quick b/c of peoples initial reactions to abnormally high oil temps when racing.

Im not saying an additional OC is not beneficial..but from a cost benefit analysis the existing ones do not make the grade in my book..$1K for slightly larger capacity and marginally cooling or a second OC placed in front of the water radiator?? N by running these OCs what have u done for water temps..nothing.

IMO if u gonna do a secondary OC then it s/b mounted in the front of the drivers side wheel well and run both OCs in series..and Im not willing to spend and undertake that..so for me its upgraded water radiator n stock OC to solve my issues..car can be tracked reasonable w this setup.

If you enjoy ur setup then ..

Re-routing and messing with oil lines chancing leaks or tears is DEF not for me
At the end of the day my car is a street car first and race car second.

GUY, peterM1 is 100% right. Please stop arguing with him. Me and everyone on that chart have contributed very good data about the vehicles oil, and water temps. So far, we are seeing good water temp control, with running a lower concentration of coolant + water wetter. As Track veterans like Mr. 5 have noted, our cars have an electronic water pump. It tries to hit certain temp targets, by adjusting the pumping rate, and fan speed/frequency. Because those two things are beyond our control, a larger radiator is technically POINTLESS.

[tibra1]

..whatever.

[Turkeybaster115]

Originally Posted by tibra1

^I wasnt trying to convince anyone..just merely stating my point based on years of looking into this..I dont believe that any of the aftermarket OCs w/ their design are the solution for the temp/reduced power issues as Onesuperboi very observerly pointed out..and certainly not at the price point they are being sold for

You argument that a particular set up works for u doesnt add anything to this thread either.

As for when I get my hands on the performance radiator..I most def will report back...stay tuned or not..this is not meant to be an argument in any way..either accept the possibility for a diff setup ..or follow the masses..ur choice.

Dude, you have no idea, what we are dealing with here. This car's ecu is very sophisticated, and it monitors several parameters, simultaneously. For instance the last time I was at the track, oil temps were at 270F or below, and water temps, were @ 98C, far below the limp mode threshold. However, as the day went on, my car began going into limp mode once outside temps went over 80 degrees. The high ambient air temps (IATs) going into the intake caused these limps. Unless you reprogram the ecu, like JB4, and some other tunes can do, your upgraded radiator will be useless.

[zsapphire7]

Originally Posted by onesuperboi

There isn't enough data on an aftermarket radiator. However, I was surprised from the data table from the results of having an oil cooler. Look how many people still went into limp mode or reduced power. So, it seems that an additional oil cooler doesn't help too much in keeping oil temps in check.

take a closer look. MT looks fine if you can cool oil down enough. AT simply produces too much heat that I think youll probably need both upgraded oilcoolers and radiators to satisfy track conditions