[BALLAJL15]

Just spoke with Shiv on the phone about the issue... He believes that possibly there was something in the intake(small piece of metal) that went into the turbo and caused the failure.... Not totally sure of course because he hasnt seen them. I cant really put the blame on ultimate racing and deff. not myself but something wrong did happen and after I get back the turbos I will have them inspected and hopefully put up pictures. I should have the car either wed or thursday of next week

[OpenFlash]

Hi guys,
I just talked to the owner of the car. Poor guy didn't even know that certain parties took pics of his car and are talking about it online. Bad form. At first, saw this thread and thought someone else had the same problem as him!

Anyway, we discussed what lead up to his spontaneous turbo failure and it is highly unlikely that the turbo failed through overspinning/overboosting. Leave it to the forum to make a conclusion based upon incomplete info. The turbos (both of them) will come out and will be inspected. That should confirm what is most likely to be the cause of the failure. Right now, it is only the rear turbo that is obviously compromised (bearing damage).

Regards,
Shiv

[wj4]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Hi guys,
I just talked to the owner of the car. Poor guy didn't even know that certain parties took pics of his car and are talking about it online. Bad form. At first, saw this thread and thought someone else had the same problem as him!

Anyway, we discussed what lead up to his spontaneous turbo failure and it is highly unlikely that the turbo failed through overspinning/overboosting. Leave it to the forum to make a conclusion based upon incomplete info. The turbos (both of them) will come out and will be inspected. That should confirm what is most likely to be the cause of the failure. Right now, it is only the rear turbo that is obviously compromised (bearing damage).

Regards,
Shiv

I know you only talked to him over the phone so many details can be vague, but do you have any idea what led to the failure?

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by trueblue

Simplified Turbo control 101:
MAP sensor reading -> ECU -> Injector Duty
^ |-> Waste Gate --|
|------------------------------------------------------|

This is turbo control in the simplest form. The MAP sensor provide the manifold pressure readings to the ECU, the ecu find the appropriate injector(s) output from the fuel/ignition map for that particular pressure and moves the wastegate to maintain the given pressure.

All this is done under a few fixed conditions.
1. The flow restrictions is constant (stock cats etc.)
2. The intake restriction is constant (stock airbox, IC etc.)
3. Maximum turbo control delay <= Max inj output delay

When you add a box to fool the ecu and intake and exhaust, you have pretty much altered all 3 basic premiss.

1. The exhaust restriction is now removed. On a NA car this would provide more hp at high rpm range because of lowered back pressure, the engine would actually accelerate faster. But on a turbo charged car the exhaust is the source for controlling the turbo it self, and changing the flow characteristic means that the wastegate open/close function curve is now wrong. Free flow exhaust on ANY turbo charged car will cause boost spikes and creeps. Both boost controller and wastegate itself are usually replaced in order to counter act this change. Left unchecked, the turbo WILL fail prematurely.
2. Not as detrimental as free flowing exhaust the changes in the intake will also change the turbo spooling characteristics. It's simple, the turbo is designed to spin at certain rpms giving the pressure encountered at both the turbine and compressor wheel, you lower the pressure on either side guess what?
3. "Tuner Boxes" no matter how good is a signal interceptor. By adding an additional electronic device that has to change the intercepted signal WILL add delay to the signal. Someone will probably jump up and down at this point and scream "but it's only milliseconds", let me save you the trouble by just saying the turbo spins over 4000 revs per second, a boost spike happens faster than you can blink. This delay in it self is just a small part of the picture, the whole idea is to "fool" the ecu into thinking everything is still functioning within the designed parameter so in essence everything in the control loop mentioned before has been altered. The ecu no longer sees the real manifold pressure, the output to the wastegate has been altered, the injector duty has been altered. Mathematically it is just changing the in/out signal by altering the intercept (basic trig, Y=mX+b, m=slope, b=intercept). The BIG problem occurs when you consider that making changes to the flow characteristics (as described in 1,2) will cause spike and creep from the STOCK boost level (spinning at STOCK rpm), what do you think the spike and creep will hit when you are boosting at TWICE the stock boost level. This is the reason why ALL high hp tuner cars must use standalone ecu (in most cases are even faster than the stock ecu), NOT piggybacks.

All things mechanical has a MTBF, any moving component (especially something that moves as fast a turbo) will be subject to stress. By making it move faster you WILL increase the stress and reduce the MTBF, this is a giving. People's lack of understanding when it comes to providing the proper support mod for ANY given power mod will send many more of these great cars to the junk yard in the years to come.

I really appreciate the time you took to write this. However, some of the info that you have provided (especially in point 3) is [unintentionally i'm sure] misleading. I'll elaborate later tonight. Gotta run some errands right now...

Cheers,
shiv

[stressdoc]

Originally Posted by KenB

There have been several threads that I am aware of (and probably many that I am not aware of) that have started with "I am going to take my car in to the dealer, its making a weird sound, or not running right etc." Then the next day the op will ask the mod to delete the thread (which they do) so the op can quietly make a fraudulent warranty claim and never speak of it again for fear of getting their warranty revoked.

At least 2 of the "several" appear to be money shifts. There are also likely to have been several similar failures that have occurred on stock, unmodded engines.

That said, there are sound engineering reasons to think that catless DPs and higher boost are risk factors for turbo failures. Hence good reason for BMW to question warranty claims on turbos on cars with such mods.

[Lane]

Inspection of the turbos will provide info worth much more than any speculation. Pics would be greatly appreciated.

[Neema]

Originally Posted by Lane

I am sorry but you are wrong. I bet I cannot get any piggyback to be mapped.

Or let's do so that I change my turbos immediately to slightly bigger that have been designed to higher boost and flow and you arrange a map for me that works with them. You can select the turbos if you want. I don't think you can do that.

Are we talking about the same "maps" here? As far as I knew, maps can be created by tuners(AA, Vishnu, BMS, DINAN. . . ) and loaded into the piggyback. I mean, thats what everyone with a procede has been doing up to this point.

[Neema]

This thread is pushing me towards selling the car and going N/A, like a Z4M coupe.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by wj4

I know you only talked to him over the phone so many details can be vague, but do you have any idea what led to the failure?

I talked to the owner again and I have a pretty good idea about what happened. And I've seen this before (in other cars). I suspect a packing peanut was still stuck in the intake pipe when it was installed. It dislodged under boost and got sucked into the rear turbo since it was the straightest shot (the front turbo inlet makes a sharp ~180deg bend). The pipe, itself, isn't straight so it's impossible to visually check it for foreign particles. You can shake it and try to get all the packing peanuts out. But it doesn't take much to have one stuck in there.

Shiv

[stressdoc]

OMG, shades of the Columbia space shuttle tragedy. I never liked those damx peanuts...

[s1eepy]

i'm really interested to see whats up with the turbos,
but omg if that was my car and..
packing peanut ~> $14k

[stressdoc]

Now I'm scared that I'm going to blow a turbo from the bits of crap that the occasional field mouse puts in my intake building a nest or storing food (they steal dog food and stash it around the engine compartment).

[stressdoc]

Q: say it had been a BMW performance intake packing peanut, would BMW warranty it?

No doubt it would have to be installed by a dealer.

[5soko]

thats why im never going DP's and intake on my car. i got the STI for that

11psi, with drop in K&N, catback exhaust is all i will be needing. maybe a upgrade FMIC in the future.

i think anyone with DP's and a tune needs a Boost gauge 100% with this setup.

[e.n335]

Originally Posted by Boost_Nation

This thread is pushing me towards selling the car and going N/A, like a Z4M coupe.

No reason for selling the car . Let's face it, the engine is pretty new and I think it's wrong to put everything available on the engine to gain as much power as possible.

I have been very consequent and somehow conservative by adding performance mods to my car. Where am I as of today ? Forge DV's and the new AA Active Processor. I wait to do the next step until I am absolutely sure the previous step is working as good as possible, not throwing any codes. My next step will be a FMIC and I will drive with this mod again until I'm absolutely sure it works well. It's a slow and continuous process which offers the possibility to address possible problems to the latest step I did. My engine and my turbos are in excellent condition, I enjoy tuning and the additional power but I also do everything I am able to avoid mistakes. The 335i is a great car with a great engine and it does not harm anybody to be very careful by adding power step by step.

Cheers,
Eugen

[Lane]

Boost Nation, I'm saying that if I'm changing the turbos to slightly bigger ones to avoid all possible problems, I cannot map the piggyback and I don't believe anyone provides me that service either. So far all the Procede maps are for the stock turbos.
RDSport and Helix may provide a map to suit a specific set of turbos that they have selected. They don't provide custom tuning either. At least not here in Europe as far as I know.

[who's ur daddy?]

Wow just wow if the cause were a packing peanut...

[Neema]

Originally Posted by Lane

Boost Nation, I'm saying that if I'm changing the turbos to slightly bigger ones to avoid all possible problems, I cannot map the piggyback and I don't believe anyone provides me that service either. So far all the Procede maps are for the stock turbos.
RDSport and Helix may provide a map to suit a specific set of turbos that they have selected. They don't provide custom tuning either. At least not here in Europe as far as I know.

Ah I see, you meant to say that you/general public can't map a piggyback. I was being vague, while you were being specific, thats why we had the misunderstandings. I was vague in that I said that a piggyback can have it's maps changed for bigger turbos (because in general, they can, but at the moment no offers such a thing), but you were specifically talking about current times and with current tunes, in which case. . yes, your right, no one at the moment offers a tune for bigger turbos and I doubt any of them could do a custom tune for one because they'd need to develop the map in the first place.

[Neema]

True true, and your reasoning/logic is great. But the reason I'm pushed towards wanting to get away from FI and turbos is because of all the variables the N54 is proving to have which cause it to have problems. And in stock form, the N54 isn't enough.

I'm thinking bout a Z4M coupe or an M3, but by then. . . God knows where the gas prices will be (im not god haha, but i know that they're gonna be high as f**k) so I dunno if I still want an M3. B8 S4 maybe? No. . . hell no. . . no more FI because it's too tempting to tune and mess with since it's relatively easy to do. So only N/A's this time, since tuning them for bigger HP/TQ is more expensive and difficult to do. Maybe even an E46 M3 with a new warranty purchased for it. With a Z4M coupe, I could just throw on an intake, exhaust, wheels, and suspension and call it a day. No blown turbos, failing fuel pumps, and all that other BS. Sure, it's no where near as fast a V2 equipped 335, but who cares. . . I'm on the road anyway, not the track.

turbos, waste gates, actuators, bypass valves, catalytic converters, and so on. . . . . . all failing for people. I've had no problems yet but want to get rid of this thing before I inevitably run into them. My waste gate rod is loose, like so many others, and therefore causes a ticking noise that's yet to fixed. Thats it for now, but who knows what other hell might come up later.

And with those insane DME readouts, the dealers can use so many things against you and your warranty, leaving you stranded and having to pay thousands.

Originally Posted by e.n335

No reason for selling the car . Let's face it, the engine is pretty new and I think it's wrong to put everything available on the engine to gain as much power as possible.

I have been very consequent and somehow conservative by adding performance mods to my car. Where am I as of today ? Forge DV's and the new AA Active Processor. I wait to do the next step until I am absolutely sure the previous step is working as good as possible, not throwing any codes. My next step will be a FMIC and I will drive with this mod again until I'm absolutely sure it works well. It's a slow and continuous process which offers the possibility to address possible problems to the latest step I did. My engine and my turbos are in excellent condition, I enjoy tuning and the additional power but I also do everything I am able to avoid mistakes. The 335i is a great car with a great engine and it does not harm to be very careful by adding power step by step.

Cheers,
Eugen

[5soko]

Boostnation:
the 335i is a pretty solid car in gerneral stock, if your scared lean back on the tunes and PSI, take the filter out and that downpipe out aswell. i guess you do have a boost gauge to monitor things. you seem to have a pretty heavy modded car, if you are concerned go to a light tuned n54.


another question while this is on the topic, i was reading on another forum that sstt and JB's dont have boost spikes or the car would limp if there was any?why does the v2 have boost spike?

[silvrevo]

Originally Posted by silvrevo

Ya but who is to say when you get a problem with your engine and have to take it in. And nobody can say X psi is safe. Might be, Might be another issue you have to take your 335i in on too. Same result, they find your tune,, Correct?

See a stock car can have an issue,,,

So what Im getting at is if your car is tuned,,, you take off your "toon",, Can they see what values were over in the ecu? And then void your warrenty?

Just because you think you have a safe Tune, dosnt mean a problem wont pop up,, then what,, your F'cd.!!!!!

Correct me if Im wrong.

Also what if you take off your "toon" and drive for 6 months stock. You then have an issue and take it in. Will they still be able to look back say 6 months, or would they look at more recent values?

Im about 2 steps away from going back.

And Yea! That M3 isnt looking bad either,, except the mpg, and gas going to be Over $5.00 by Mid Summer.

$14k would be a crushing crushing blow to me,,, Let alone another $14k for internal work.

Anyone care to shed light on what I have said?

thanks in advance.

[e.n335]

Originally Posted by Boost_Nation

True true, and your reasoning/logic is great. But the reason I'm pushed towards wanting to get away from FI and turbos is because of all the variables the N54 is proving to have which cause it to have problems. And in stock form, the N54 isn't enough.

I'm thinking bout a Z4M coupe or an M3, but by then. . . God knows where the gas prices will be (im not god haha, but i know that they're gonna be high as f**k) so I dunno if I still want an M3. B8 S4 maybe? No. . . hell no. . . no more FI because it's too tempting to tune and mess with since it's relatively easy to do. So only N/A's this time, since tuning them for bigger HP/TQ is more expensive and difficult to do. Maybe even an E46 M3 with a new warranty purchased for it. With a Z4M coupe, I could just throw on an intake, exhaust, wheels, and suspension and call it a day. No blown turbos, failing fuel pumps, and all that other BS. Sure, it's no where near as fast a V2 equipped 335, but who cares. . . I'm on the road anyway, not the track.

turbos, waste gates, actuators, bypass valves, catalytic converters, and so on. . . . . . all failing for people. I've had no problems yet but want to get rid of this thing before I inevitably run into them. My waste gate rod is loose, like so many others, and therefore causes a ticking noise that's yet to fixed. Thats it for now, but who knows what other hell might come up later.

And with those insane DME readouts, the dealers can use so many things against you and your warranty, leaving you stranded and having to pay thousands.

The Z4M has the same engine as the e46 M3 and has a good milage as well. However, give yourself a break and after removing everything to get the wastegate rod repaired, throw on a JB2H and start from scratch. You can wait until V3 is delivered and work on your solution, step by step. If I would buy a Z4M I would add a supercharger or turbos and in such a case, the N54 is the better engine. We need more and further developed engine performance solutions and this will take some more time. I am sure we will see a GIAC and Jim Conforti flash soon, offering new possibilities. In the meantime the existing solutions will get better and better by learning more about the engine and the turbos. As of today from what we know I would say holding 12-13psi boost and tapering it down to 9-10psi close to the redline is safe, which does not imply 15psi is not. But 12-13psi will be a good starting point, IMO. And I would try it for sure before selling the car or going back to stock.