[JRobUSC]

My understanding of the ZF transmission is it's modular, meaning it can accept a torque converter, a wet clutch, or even an electric motor. And it's compatible with AWD, something BMW's current M-DCT is not. I don't know what the limitations are in terms of electric motor power but I personally think the possibilities with that transmission are pretty exciting. Imagine the upcoming 600+hp 4.0L twin turbo V8 coupled with a 200hp electric motor and xDrive -- that would make for a pretty damn compelling drivetrain in a future M.

[SteveW928]

Originally Posted by dkhm3

I agree with some of what you said, but if you bought a dct thinking it was an auto torque converter gearbox, it is definitely not. I drive the dct manually, as it was meant to be driven.

Oh, for sure. I'd have gotten a manual if it weren't the family car. It does shift impressively quick, it's the logic that sucks. I was hoping I'd like the +/- mode more, but never really could get used to it. That said, I'm also a guy who inverts the vertical axis on video games. I'm old-school, I guess.

Originally Posted by glennQNYC

Wait until the "save the manuals" guys learn torque-converter automatics are the least of their problems. If you believe autonomous vehicle and EV interest groups; internal-combustion engines and even driving a car yourself will be legislated away soon.

The autonomous stuff scares the heck out of me, but the EV stuff is interesting. If they get the off-throttle and regen-braking right, then I think I can live with tons of torque and no shifting.

But, yea, there's something about the roar of the engine and shifting and such that would be missed. A couple second 0-60 and insta-torque might go a long ways towards comforting me, though.

[Fugly M3]

The ZF 8AT is the first automatic BMW I've had (1 5MT and 2 6MTs all getrag IIRC) and I have to admit it's a great transmission. Not as quick as the DSG my Audi had. I personally cannot do the manual in LA traffic anymore. The 987.2 Cayman manual was the last straw for me. In any event, do I miss the manual? At times, absolutely. Especially during my ED trip! That said, I think the sales exec is probably right with respect to the us market with all its regs. I think the manuals will survive longer in Europe, but here, I can see them being gone in a decade or so.

[Bosozoku]

Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda

I read that also. Sounds like automatics are gonna be the only option in the future for M cars. My question for forum members is why can the hyper/super car manufactures continue to use DCTs with the supposed limitations? Wouldn't it stand to reason that they would also be switching to traditional automatics?

Agree. All Ferraris, for example, have sadly gone flappy-paddle DCT.

Exhibit A: Ferrari 488 with 661 hp + 561 lb·ft
Exhibit B: Ferrari F12 with 730 hp + 509 lb·ft
Exhibit C: Ferrari LaFerrari with 950 bhp + 664 lb·ft.
(Statistics courtesy of Wikipedia.)

"He said about 450 horsepower (335kW) and 600Nm was more or less the limit of manual-gearbox durability. ..."

I think what he meant was "450 horsepower and 600Nm are more or less the limit of the old manual gearbox and/or DCT that we developed years and years ago, and we are unwilling to develop a new manual gearbox and/or DCT that can handle more. Because our bean-counters have gone wild."

[c63er]

Many of you accepted every deliberate steps bmw took to move away from a serious car enthusiast brand towards being a German Toyota. Some of you even berated us enthusiasts who wanted the company to stay on the right path.

Just another piece to the larger puzzle. This is actually a smaller piece then the others. it's interesting that this move has gained so much attention rather then the move to make a shared platform with Toyota, fwd or the systematic dismantling of the m brand as an enthusiast/performance division and into a facade designed for people who don't know about cars.

In any event it's a ship has long sailed and has not reached its destination. The time for most of you to vote with your wallets has long passed for this next generation. It seems likely that we will have a self driving, electric m3 possibly on a shared platform for the next generation. Real performance parts cost too much to design and engineer. The ultimate vehicle for the badge whore. However you can still vote with your wallets for the generation after that.

It would be nice to see some enthusiasts with real passion and principles make a comeback. Maybe this thread can be a start.

With all this said the zf is a wonderful transmission but you loose even more of the magic that makes bmw m special. Not to worry in sure bmw will add an extra vent or a CF lip spoiler to make up for it and most of you will eat it up happily

[Bosozoku]

Originally Posted by E46M54325Ci

The ZF 8AT is the first automatic BMW I've had (1 5MT and 2 6MTs all getrag IIRC) and I have to admit it's a great transmission. Not as quick as the DSG my Audi had. I personally cannot do the manual in LA traffic anymore. The 987.2 Cayman manual was the last straw for me. In any event, do I miss the manual? At times, absolutely. Especially during my ED trip! That said, I think the sales exec is probably right with respect to the us market with all its regs. I think the manuals will survive longer in Europe, but here, I can see them being gone in a decade or so.

I've read that Europeans almost all go for the DCT. Or anything with the flappy paddles, really.
#BecauseFormulaOne

[e92ben]

Owned a f30 with the ZF8 and a E92 with DCT. The ZF was excellent in shifting speed and better than the DCT for daily driving around town. So not really let down by the fall of DCT. GM made a automatic that's just as fast is pdk for the new z06 and when I drove it I was super impressed. No manual on the other hand is sad, there should always be an option for m3/4 in stick.

[DwainOt]

Originally Posted by e92bene

Owned a f30 with the ZF8 and a E92 with DCT. The ZF was excellent in shifting speed and better than the DCT for daily driving around town. So not really let down by the fall of DCT. GM made a automatic that's just as fast is pdk for the new z06 and when I drove it I was super impressed. No manual on the other hand is sad, there should always be an option for m3/4 in stick.

Manuals are definitley becoming a thing of the past which sucks because I love an old manual.

[G35POPPEDMYCHERRY]

idk why everyone all sad about the DCT going...if you drive automatic and they have a better version coming out, then whats the problem? its AUTOMATIC period.

now this thread should mourn the loss of a 6mt. Man straight up, I probably cant even pull 0-60 in less than 6 secs due to the traction issues of this beast and most cars dust me off a line until I get into 3rd or floor 2nd. but idgaf, all bout the experience. i hope its the last gen of manuals because IMO, i would've got a c63, and if the transmission opition isn't a factor anymore. Ill keep my f80 and see the value hold very strongly and look at a shitload of more cars now

[MikeRR]

Owning both of these transmissions (and having owned some before already) I feel that the ZF is the better transmission for everyday use BUT the DCT for me feels much more mechanical and sporty, I feel more connected with the car. Having swapped a M235i auto to an M2 DCT I really appreciate the DCT more on this kind of car. On the other hand I would not want it in the X3 over the ZF.
BMW should not forget what M Cars are about, it's not only about beeing fast, automatic is not the way to go here.
I am curious to drive the new M5 later this year to find out where the future is going...

[py0413]

The ZF 8 speed auto on my 15' X5 M-sport is smooth but it's nowhere near being able to be in same conversation when it comes to performance/sports cars. Maybe soon enough cars will no longer even need a steering wheel.

[doccyber]

Originally Posted by E46M54325Ci

The ZF 8AT is the first automatic BMW I've had (1 5MT and 2 6MTs all getrag IIRC) and I have to admit it's a great transmission. Not as quick as the DSG my Audi had. I personally cannot do the manual in LA traffic anymore. The 987.2 Cayman manual was the last straw for me. In any event, do I miss the manual? At times, absolutely. Especially during my ED trip! That said, I think the sales exec is probably right with respect to the us market with all its regs. I think the manuals will survive longer in Europe, but here, I can see them being gone in a decade or so.

I totally agree. My current car is my first automatic transmission car. I miss driving a stick shift car. But with traffic being bad and getting worse all the time, it was time to be more practical.

[Jono2112]

Originally Posted by JsL

Which car company does DCT implementation better? Not trying to be a smart a**, just curious.

PDK

[Jono2112]

I wish my 2015 M235i had a 6MT, but you can't choose options when you buy used, and at 26% off the sticker, they made me an offer I couldn't refuse.
The ZF8AT is a great auto trans and the only one I've owned in 36 years of driving. It's not a manual and I miss that, but it's smooth in comfort, and reads my mind in sport. When I use the paddles, theres a tiny delay for upshifts, but perfect blipping on downshifts, even when you drop two gears to set up for a corner, get the car balanced, roll into the power, and rotate out of the curve into hard acceleration down the straight, or into traffic on the highway. Wish I had a manual, but it's a great AT.

[lantran]

a BMW exec indicated that the days are numbered for manual

[AUSf22]

ZF8

I'm sure the future gearboxes will be even better so DCT going away isn't the biggest shame but manual transmissions should stay.

[loveskiing]

I love watching everybody get their knickers in a twist about the what ifs years away. Who really gives a shite? Rather than play mental gymnastic games why this one is better, why ZF is better than DCT which is better than SMG or MT is better than this or that, I'm going with what is and I'll deal with what will be when it gets here. End of story.
For those who love DCT like I do, get a DCT tune and you'll be amazed at the difference.
Additionally, how high is up? When do we stop playing that I have more horsepower than you and more torque than you therefore my penis is bigger than yours games? When do we say enough is enough 800 horsepower? 900? 1,000? 1500? 2,000? I mean how fast do you really want to go 0 to 60? Where can you go that speed? I'm satisfied with what I have, it's fast enough, it shifts quick enough, I'm faster than most of the cars on the road and I don't have to prove it...maybe that's the real lesson in all of this.

[Stratus650]

This is the result of making newer cars heavy, you need to add HP and u need to replace trannys.

Just make them lighter and you solved everything. We dont need extra hp, it will be higher per tonne once the weight goes down

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by dkhm3

Does my M2 Gran Goupe come with an imaginary Gigi Hadid?

I am thinking of many imaginary things right now, I need to go to the bathroom. be back in 5!

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by dkhm3

10 gears is great for... fuel economy.

it is not good for a track. see car and driver review of the camaro zl1 10 speed. They just let the computer take over.

There is a problem when you are shifting through that many gears entering a turn and exiting. the driver interaction becomes a distraction.

"The sheer number of gears removes a lot of the joy from manually paddling through the cogs. Not to mention that downshifts in this mode feel significantly slower and clunkier than when the gearbox is left to its own devices. Engineers did attempt to address the tedium of toggling through six or seven or ten gears by writing code that jumps to the lowest possible gear when you hold the left shift paddle, but we found the system to be wildly inconsistent. Sometimes the downshift was nearly instantaneous. At other times, whole seconds passed before the shift occurred. And sometimes, inexplicably, there was no shift at all, no matter how long we held the paddle."

One thing when you drive a sports car is you need the car to be consistent at all times, engine torque, hp, tranny response, handling. that is what makes a sports car great- that is how to become part of the machine, you know exactly what it will do at exactly the right time.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...l1-test-review

OMG Car and Driver ... much better name than Car and Operator ..

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by Jono2112

I wish my 2015 M235i had a 6MT, but you can't choose options when you buy used, and at 26% off the sticker, they made me an offer I couldn't refuse.
The ZF8AT is a great auto trans and the only one I've owned in 36 years of driving. It's not a manual and I miss that, but it's smooth in comfort, and reads my mind in sport. When I use the paddles, theres a tiny delay for upshifts, but perfect blipping on downshifts, even when you drop two gears to set up for a corner, get the car balanced, roll into the power, and rotate out of the curve into hard acceleration down the straight, or into traffic on the highway. Wish I had a manual, but it's a great AT.

And in congrast... In certain markets in Europe, for the M2.. the 6 speed manual is actually a 3-6k euro option over the DCT.

It's clear how BMW manipulates YOU the customer into purchasing the transmission that they would prefer to sell.

They then quote woeful manual purchase statistics after their own " self fulfillment" prophecy..

and yes I mean to type it that way ..

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by Bosozoku

I've read that Europeans almost all go for the DCT. Or anything with the flappy paddles, really.
#BecauseFormulaOne

True story !
# because Faster ....but apparently not Furious ...