[CBR335]

Originally Posted by Sniz

also curious, MORE curious of why the JB3 was designed to run on a meth map at all if the safeguards are removed. It shouldn't even be able to happen.

this is not the 1st case of a JB3 running meth w no flow while still on high boost. Design flaw 101. Hell even my antique e36 running meth cant run high boost if the flow sensor doesnt read what the flow controller is expecting. Immediate wastegate pressure and nothing more. If I turn the meth off I cant go above 8psi PERIOD.

Hey Sniz, if the hardwire failsafe is enabled the JB3 cannot run the "meth" map unless a flow signal is received from the methanol system controller (CMGS in this case). However, the non-meth default map is chosen by the user. This default map can be whatever the user decides is appropriate independent of any other conditions like mods, octane, etc. If a high-boost non-meth map is chosen, that is what you'll get when meth stops flowing. If you aren't careful (or you are brash) a mistake can easily be made.

[cstavaru]

I think everyone is on a false assumption here. The affected user posted it's error codes from the car and everybody dismissed them and instead they chose to say the failure was because of knock although KNOCK WAS NOT DETECTED.

It's convenient, right ? This way you can bash tunes and keep people un-scared and thinking that if they avoid knock everything is ok.

It seems that everyone thinks that as long as you avoid knock, you can make 93834whp on the N54 engine, right ? Well, I think it's stupid. If you make too much power, regardless of knock or not knock, the engine will fail and the ringland seems an obvious point of failure. The forces pushing the pistons and heat are just too high !

So as much as anyone hates to admit, if you push more than 18-19psi on N54 with stock internals for too long, the engine is bound to fail...it's not about ANY tune.

The proper failsafe would be a gentelman's agreement between BMS and Vishnu in order not to raise boost past a point of let's say 18psi, or other limits that they think it could ensure safety. That would be a proper failsafe...

[Former_Boosted_IS]

Originally Posted by cstavaru

I think everyone is on a false assumption here. The affected user posted it's error codes from the car and everybody dismissed them and instead they chose to say the failure was because of knock although KNOCK WAS NOT DETECTED.

It's convenient, right ? This way you can bash tunes and keep people un-scared and thinking that if they avoid knock everything is ok.

It seems that everyone thinks that as long as you avoid knock, you can make 93834whp on the N54 engine, right ? Well, I think it's stupid. If you make too much power, regardless of knock or not knock, the engine will fail and the ringland seems an obvious point of failure. The forces pushing the pistons and heat are just too high !

So as much as anyone hates to admit, if you push more than 18-19psi on N54 with stock internals for too long, the engine is bound to fail...it's not about ANY tune.

The proper failsafe would be a gentelman's agreement between BMS and Vishnu in order not to raise boost past a point of let's say 18psi, or other limits that they think it could ensure safety. That would be a proper failsafe...

I don't think you have a single shread of evidence to make a statement like this. The reality is we have a lot of guys pushing quite a bit more power including me with no problems. Blaming this on excessive horsepower is really not an acceptable argument at this point. I have cracked rings before and traditionally there are indications (like oil on plugs) that something is wrong before a catastrophic failure.

I don't think you understand the heat being generated by running these stock turbos at 19 psi. Pump simply cannot support this. Outside of that, this is all speculation about what happened at this point.

[cstavaru]

Originally Posted by Former_Boosted_IS

I don't think you have a single shread of evidence to make a statement like this.

My hard evidence is:

1. Engine failed
2. Knock was not detected

What is more "right": to assume that the DME did not register knock events that happened and to continue the discussion for pages and pages OR to take into consideration the actual DME error code list ?

[Former_Boosted_IS]

Originally Posted by cstavaru

My hard evidence is:

1. Engine failed
2. Knock was not detected

What is more "right": to assume that the DME did not register knock events that happened and to continue the discussion for pages and pages OR to take into consideration the actual DME error code list ?

I don't know how you can assume the DME didn't detect knock. Who knows if this was a single event. Who knows if he used the BT to deleted codes prior. Who knows if this is a result of prolonged smaller events. The problem is we know nothing right now and still have a 9 page bash fest. Until we know specifics, this is one speculation after another.

Shiv even stated earlier that superknock/glow codes may not be triggered by single cycle or short duration major knock events. We just know nothing unfortunately. The problem is even if he was logging timing with the BT, it still may show nothing. The sample rate on the BT is horrendous and could conceivably completely miss the event.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by Sniz

also curious, MORE curious of why the JB3 was designed to run on a meth map at all if the safeguards are removed. It shouldn't even be able to happen.

this is not the 1st case of a JB3 running meth w no flow while still on high boost. Design flaw 101. Hell even my antique e36 running meth cant run high boost if the flow sensor doesnt read what the flow controller is expecting. Immediate wastegate pressure and nothing more. If I turn the meth off I cant go above 8psi PERIOD.

So there is no possible way to install your meth kit with the safety not connected? What if you just don't connect the boost line to the wastegate? Any meth kit can be installed without a safety and any safety can be improperly configured if the user wants. Meth in many ways is much more dangerous than race gas because it can suddenly just turn off leaving the engine exposed with full boost and full advance. Much care must be given to the safety setup.

Mike

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by cstavaru

My hard evidence is:

1. Engine failed
2. Knock was not detected

What is more "right": to assume that the DME did not register knock events that happened and to continue the discussion for pages and pages OR to take into consideration the actual DME error code list ?

Unfortunately that error code list isnt bullet proof in design either...
There is plenty of room for error, information withheld or not shown yet.
Plenty of information could have been missed from the BT itself as well.

Originally Posted by Former_Boosted_IS

I don't know how you can assume the DME didn't detect knock. Who knows if this was a single event. Who knows if he used the BT to deleted codes prior. Who knows if this is a result of prolonged smaller events. The problem is we know nothing right now and still have a 9 page bash fest. Until we know specifics, this is one speculation after another.

Shiv even stated earlier that superknock/glow codes may not be triggered by single cycle or short duration major knock events. We just know nothing unfortunately. The problem is even if he was logging timing with the BT, it still may show nothing. The sample rate on the BT is horrendous and could conceivably completely miss the event.

I'll agree with this.

[Sniz]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

So there is no possible way to install your meth kit with the safety not connected? What if you just don't connect the boost line to the wastegate? Any meth kit can be installed without a safety and any safety can be improperly configured if the user wants. Meth in many ways is much more dangerous than race gas because it can suddenly just turn off leaving the engine exposed with full boost and full advance. Much care must be given to the safety setup.

Mike

I'm sure there are possible ways to install it with no failsafe, but why would you? Obviously as a end user its up to us to not do something stupid and costly. I didn't even think about how a user could have meth hooked up, but not the failsafe, and then tell the JB3 or Procede or Standback or whatever to run boost based on that meth flow but have 0 connection between the 2, thats a recipe for disaster.

JPslick - I need to install a Hobbs switch to activate the Aquamist controller on boost and the let it dictate flow based on duty cycle. currently I cant do that so the way I have it wired for now only allows higher boost w meth flowing properly. I like the safety, but yes, it does lack full control. Then again, i'm not blowing my motor either.

[BrianMN]

Originally Posted by cstavaru

My hard evidence is:

1. Engine failed
2. Knock was not detected

What is more "right": to assume that the DME did not register knock events that happened and to continue the discussion for pages and pages OR to take into consideration the actual DME error code list ?

Obviously you can't understand HOW this engine likely failed? Ok, it didn't show a superknock code. However, it doesn't need produce superknock or any codes to continually wear on ringlands and eventually fail.

As FBIS said, plugs will tell current state of the cylinders...and I would bet $5 that he would have oil on his plug(s) 200-500 miles before it failed.

So a good lesson can be check your plugs after some crazy high boosting fun.

[vasillalov]

A slightly different question:

Ok, so the piston ringland area failed. Why are we calling this a complete engine failure? The block and the rest of the hardware should be still usable, right? Hopefully, all that Sevak needs is new pistons and probably some rehoning, correct?

[cn555ic]

Originally Posted by vasillalov

A slightly different question:

Ok, so the piston ringland area failed. Why are we calling this a complete engine failure? The block and the rest of the hardware should be still usable, right? Hopefully, all that Sevak needs is new pistons and probably some rehoning, correct?

not if the cylinder wall is cracked also

[BrianMN]

I would think so. Can't see the harm in going .10 or .30 over

[BrianMN]

Originally Posted by cn555ic

not if the cylinder wall is cracked also

Glad to see the Yankees could afford to pay off the home plate umps all night.

[Former_Boosted_IS]

Originally Posted by vasillalov

A slightly different question:

Ok, so the piston ringland area failed. Why are we calling this a complete engine failure? The block and the rest of the hardware should be still usable, right? Hopefully, all that Sevak needs is new pistons and probably some rehoning, correct?

Again who knows. The engine will have to come apart. Normally there will be some damage to the piston crown if it gets to the point where the ring fails, especially if it was a catastrophic detonation event. When the ring fails, the material can score the cylinder walls, etc. There is so much that is not known at this point. As I said this is 9 pages of speculations and mud slinging.

[vasillalov]

Originally Posted by cn555ic

not if the cylinder wall is cracked also

Ahhh, that makes sense. Is the N54 block sleeved? If so, wouldn't the sleeve crack and preserve the block?

[BrianMN]

Originally Posted by packinDSS

I knew the twins fans would start dropping bird shit today. I guess that 9th inning 4th out really hit the ground first too?

That was just a tough call to make....any ump would have trouble with it haha

[enrita]

Originally Posted by vasillalov

A slightly different question:

Ok, so the piston ringland area failed. Why are we calling this a complete engine failure? The block and the rest of the hardware should be still usable, right? Hopefully, all that Sevak needs is new pistons and probably some rehoning, correct?

it doesnt matter if it is a complete failure or just 1 ringland . The cost at the end are the same.

[BrianMN]

Originally Posted by enrita

it doesnt matter if it is a complete failure or just 1 ringland . The cost at the end are the same.

Please explain. Also curious to know more about your experiences....

I'd think if his walls weren't cracked, he could BORE IT AND FLOOR IT

[Sniz]

Originally Posted by enrita

it doesnt matter if it is a complete failure or just 1 ringland . The cost at the end are the same.

I know you ended up with fresh rebuild at OEM specs correct?

curious what the $$ difference was for a low compression stout Forged build?

I can get the parts together for my engine for around $3,500 that will handle 800whp or so w no problem. Different engine for sure, maybe one day the n54 will be that cheap.

[enrita]

When you are faced to a rebuild you have 3 choices:
- You get a complete rebuilt engine which from what i have heard BMW offer for about 5000-6000 USD (could be more) plus 3000 USD to uninstall and install. You could also find one from a wracked car which might be easier in the US than EU.
- You open the engine and change the entire motorblock and pistons 3500 USD plus the usual 3000 to uninstall and install new pieces etc fix the head 1500 USD and count another 1000 USD for different parts, cleaning etc. (what i did)
- You open the engine and fix the OEM motorblock (if possible depending on the failure) get new pistons (all 6, you dont want to get only one) that has to fit after boring/honing etc (how much this cost i have no idea) , at this point you get maybe CPE pistons with lower compression (1200 USD?) since you are at it and put it back together.
In the last case you have an issue. You have NO idea how the engine will run afterwards. You risk the engine to consume oil etc. I did not want to take this risk. I wanted the car to run perfectly as before, so the third option might be a bit cheaper but with lots of unknown results. It also depends on the type of failure to do the third one.
Also how long do you want to be without a car? this has to be taken into consideration as well.
Is quite easy to say yeah do this do that but when you are actually facing such a failure i can assure you think a lot about the best solution for your needs.

[Mr. 5]

Guys,
I've tried to go through most of the posts and I appreciate everyone being cordial (for the most part).
This is a very informative discussion so let's keep it up.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Option 3 based on luck find a wrecked e90, e92, or 135 with n54 engine intact.