[ErvGotti]

Originally Posted by dzenno

If they obviously had the capability they would obviously do it it's not easy, takes time and they were already selling units with no other flash really impacting their sales much so why bother if there was nothing better out there

Yeah I hear ya from a buisness standpoint why bother, but it always seems like on most new platforms it starts that way. Piggy to flash to eventually a standalone for those pushing the limit. I guess what I'm getting at is why not adapt it's eventually coming, maybe not in a year maybe not in 3, but eventually it's gonna be a flash market.

[MilehighM3]

Originally Posted by dzenno

If they obviously had the capability they would obviously do it it's not easy, takes time and they were already selling units with no other flash really impacting their sales much so why bother if there was nothing better out there

Exactly right. If he has this ability, He would use it because a flash is far superior. Once it is a flash tuned market, he will be dust in the mirrors. Ask the Suby and Evo guys. A good friend if mine has been laughing at his pwm meth kit for the M3s. His inflated numbers aren't flying in the M3post either. Go figure. Another friend just installed his pwm kit on his 135 and took it to the dyno. Even after several hours on the street tweaking and logging prior to the dyno, he still didn't get more than 2-3 degrees advance on pump gas without loosing afrs down the tube and power curves going to hell. He's in here too, I'll leave his name out though. Kit is not worth the money IMO. The guy claims race gas is a waste with meth, but yet you know that's how he dynos everything. The best part of not owning a Vishnu product, is you don't have to deal with the owner. Also IMO.

[Skydive]

Think.

If Vishnu thought they could achieve results and function as good as, or better than those they are getting with the the piggyback solution, they would do it. Why? Because they have already developed (most of) the intellectual property it would take, and the hardware cost is significantly less. In fact, if they went to a dealer only model (like GIAC and Evolve, for example), they would have only to outfit dealers with the requisite hardware. Vishnu would probably make more money selling a flash than they do with the Procede.

In all honesty, given that Shiv has done a Procede/Meth tune for the E9x M3, and he offers flash tunes for other platforms for which he once offered Piggybacks, I don't find it at all unlikely that we will see a "hybrid offering" from Vishnu in time. That is, you'll be able to purchase a Stage I flash, and possibly a Stage II (FBO) flash, and a Procede controller based methanol kit, that runs "on top" of the aforementioned flashes.

PS: Not that it matters, because Cobb does very good work, and has LOTS of happy customers, but they consistently come into markets "late", apply existing tools and a body of knowledge gleaned from the those who blazed the trails early, with their tuning philosophy as the variable, at a price point that puts existing tuners at a disadvantage. It's good for the consumer, (of which I am one), but it is what some would consider predatory in terms of business practice. Tuners in EVERY OTHER MARKET Cobb has entered have experienced this and among them Cobb has developed a reputation for it.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Bmw135er

Exactly right. If he has this ability, He would use it because a flash is far superior. Once it is a flash tuned market, he will be dust in the mirrors. Ask the Suby and Evo guys. A good friend if mine has been laughing at his pwm meth kit for the M3s. His inflated numbers aren't flying in the M3post either. Go figure. Another friend just installed his pwm kit on his 135 and took it to the dyno. Even after several hours on the street tweaking and logging prior to the dyno, he still didn't get more than 2-3 degrees advance on pump gas without loosing afrs down the tube and power curves going to hell. He's in here too, I'll leave his name out though. Kit is not worth the money IMO. The guy claims race gas is a waste with meth, but yet you know that's how he dynos everything. The best part of not owning a Vishnu product, is you don't have to deal with the owner. Also IMO.

I don't really understand what merits these accusations. I haven't run race gas since my last trip to the track. As it is for many people, methanol is enough to keep the car happy. The upgraded turbos don't hurt either of course. And if anyone is having problems with their PWM meth kit, they can simply pick up the phone and call us. Lastly, the current firmware only allows 2 deg of advance. Next week's release will allow up to 4 deg of advance. And as mentioned several times before, we only recommend advance on Rev2.5/3 because Rev2's ignition circuit induces up to 2-3 deg of passive RETARD at high RPM due to digital output drivers that have a slower rise time. This is all very true stuff. If you want to verify it yourself with a scope, I'll show you what you need to do.

As for PWM kits for the m3, they are proven to be quite successful. We have the "Darth Maul" m3 here right now (G-power Supercharger, full bolt-ons, body work, etc,.) that we are finishing up. Poor guy drove down from Canada earlier this week. Should have dyno results later that will be posted on m3post. And then we have two more m3s scheduled next week. So that makes 4 local installs in 2 weeks. Before the kit has even been publicly released. Also, if you can tell me how we could have "inflated" the uncorrected/actual dyno results on naturally aspirated m3s, I'd appreciate it.
Regards,
Shiv

[FastBimmerN54]

Originally Posted by Bmw135er

Exactly right. If he has this ability, He would use it because a flash is far superior. Once it is a flash tuned market, he will be dust in the mirrors. Ask the Suby and Evo guys. A good friend if mine has been laughing at his pwm meth kit for the M3s. His inflated numbers aren't flying in the M3post either. Go figure. Another friend just installed his pwm kit on his 135 and took it to the dyno. Even after several hours on the street tweaking and logging prior to the dyno, he still didn't get more than 2-3 degrees advance on pump gas without loosing afrs down the tube and power curves going to hell. He's in here too, I'll leave his name out though. Kit is not worth the money IMO. The guy claims race gas is a waste with meth, but yet you know that's how he dynos everything. The best part of not owning a Vishnu product, is you don't have to deal with the owner. Also IMO.

Cool story bro

[CPWINCH]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

I don't really understand what merits these accusations. I haven't run race gas since my last trip to the track. As it is for many people, methanol is enough to keep the car happy. The upgraded turbos don't hurt either of course. And if anyone is having problems with their PWM meth kit, they can simply pick up the phone and call us. Lastly, the current firmware only allows 2 deg of advance. Next week's release will allow up to 4 deg of advance. And as mentioned several times before, we only recommend advance on Rev2.5/3 because Rev2's ignition circuit induces up to 2-3 deg of passive RETARD at high RPM due to digital output drivers that have a slower rise time. This is all very true stuff. If you want to verify it yourself with a scope, I'll show you what you need to do.

As for PWM kits for the m3, they are proven to be quite successful. We have the "Darth Maul" m3 here right now (G-power Supercharger, full bolt-ons, body work, etc,.) that we are finishing up. Poor guy drove down from Canada earlier this week. Should have dyno results later that will be posted on m3post. And then we have two more m3s scheduled next week. So that makes 4 local installs in 2 weeks. Before the kit has even been publicly released. Also, if you can tell me how we could have "inflated" the uncorrected/actual dyno results on naturally aspirated m3s, I'd appreciate it.
Regards,
Shiv

stop this m3 work and give me turbo upgrade

is it possible for the procede to get info from all cylinders or only flashes. Excuse the ignorance

[EastBayE90]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Why argue about things you can't prove/disprove at this time? Go to a dyno to make your point. I'll do the same next time I have a Procede/METH/DCI car handy. But I assure you, 400whp with 17 deg of advance/15psi at 6000rpm can quite easily make 400whp, give or take 5whp.

Surely dynos work in the rain, right?

Shiv

Just let me know when you need my car again Shiv. It has been running strong since the install back in May without any issues and is more ready than ever to prove others wrong.

[EastBayE90]

Originally Posted by dzenno

Shiv I need to see this setup run at the track on pump gas...I really think this is a bad bad bad idea as even the stock tune will knock itself repeatedly with it's own timing curve let alone 2deg more

I will let you know how is goes once I get my car back from Shiv and the changes have been made. I've been itching to hit the track with the kit.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by Bmw135er

Exactly right. If he has this ability, He would use it because a flash is far superior. Once it is a flash tuned market, he will be dust in the mirrors. Ask the Suby and Evo guys. A good friend if mine has been laughing at his pwm meth kit for the M3s. His inflated numbers aren't flying in the M3post either. Go figure. Another friend just installed his pwm kit on his 135 and took it to the dyno. Even after several hours on the street tweaking and logging prior to the dyno, he still didn't get more than 2-3 degrees advance on pump gas without loosing afrs down the tube and power curves going to hell. He's in here too, I'll leave his name out though. Kit is not worth the money IMO. The guy claims race gas is a waste with meth, but yet you know that's how he dynos everything. The best part of not owning a Vishnu product, is you don't have to deal with the owner. Also IMO.

What is laughable about a Meth kit on an M3? Its aquamist hardware, proven products, on an M3 which can benefit from cooling and octane benefits like any other car could.

For your friend with the 135 it sounds like something is wrong with the install, a traditional or better meth kit will advance timing significantly over pump gas. Why dont you just ask the tons of users currently running meth on this platform including myself. Want logs?

If you're as savvy as you think on the suby/evo forums you know the aquamist hardware is the most respected in the methanol industry....

If you read his dyno threads he claims he uses meth as a safety buffer, common practice on anyone pushing boundaries that havnt been commonly used.

Sounds like you have a personal grudge against Shiv/vishnu which is nice, please take your personal attacks and opinions out of threads. Stick with hard data.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by (-(ellblazer420

Just let me know when you need my car again Shiv. It has been running strong since the install back in May without any issues and is more ready than ever to prove others wrong.

Come on up next week and we'll update you. The idea we've been playing with recently (with good success) is running ~2psi less boost than what would be considered "normal" on meth (ie, 15psi instead of 17psi) and then running up to 3 deg advance. At high RPM, the boost curve will taper down to 13-14psi with ign timing climbing steadily up to 17deg. Ends up making about a few hp less than the traditional mapping but engine is more responsive since it is getting a more efficient combustion. And a lot less stress on the turbos.

Shiv

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by CPWINCH

stop this m3 work and give me turbo upgrade

is it possible for the procede to get info from all cylinders or only flashes. Excuse the ignorance

Regarding turbos, we are working on something right now. It may be quite possible to get ignition advance data for all 6 cylinders. Just need to find more time in the day to look into it. We've been up to our necks in meth-related development these days.

[EastBayE90]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Come on up next week and we'll update you. The idea we've been playing with recently (with good success) is running ~2psi less boost than what would be considered "normal" on meth (ie, 15psi instead of 17psi) and then running up to 3 deg advance. At high RPM, the boost curve will taper down to 13-14psi with ign timing climbing steadily up to 17deg. Ends up making about a few hp less than the traditional mapping but engine is more responsive since it is getting a more efficient combustion. And a lot less stress on the turbos.

Shiv

Sounds great! I will get in touch with Rob.

[FirstBMWLA]

Love the progression on the forums. First we had procede camp bashing Terry/JB products now we have COBB bashing procede.
What's next?

[theriz]

Originally Posted by FirstBMWLA

Love the progression on the forums. First we had procede camp bashing Terry/JB products now we have COBB bashing procede.
What's next?

i thinnk everyone bashes eachother.

[Tzu]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

And as mentioned several times before, we only recommend advance on Rev2.5/3 because Rev2's ignition circuit induces up to 2-3 deg of passive RETARD at high RPM due to digital output drivers that have a slower rise time. This is all very true stuff. If you want to verify it yourself with a scope, I'll show you what you need to do.Shiv

Right, and your original sales pitch for the rev3 lacked this info leading everyone to beleive this was possible with a rev2. It wasn't a big deal though becuse instructions for updating the rev2 to a 2.5 (via hardware rework) was going to be posted "next week," stated almost 3 months ago. So until then, my AFR & timing will look like shit. This is admitting that the rev2.5 has control necessary that the rev2 doesnt. Please work on your delivery dates, or don't give dates at all.

Now I'm fine with remapping fuel and ignition on my own using the tables. Yet this is impossible because I own a rev2. I find it odd that you guys shipped me a rev2 the day before you announced the rev3, knowing that I had a PWM kit on order and I was going to lambda tune. I mentioned that to you on purpose.

What I find odd is that the new rev3 is able to do what it does somewhat, based on better hardware. This hardware is based around a processor which for the most part was chosen for its increased duty cycle to perform calculations, sampling frequency, overall speed. Yet the older and slower hardware is still adequate for stock maps, which are the same number of cells adressed, calculations performed, processor I/O. See the logic flaw?

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by FirstBMWLA

Love the progression on the forums. First we had procede camp bashing Terry/JB products now we have COBB bashing procede.
What's next?

This is the ONLY community I've seen do this.... Every other community helps each other out. It's like they can't sleep at night unless everyone drives the same tune.

Drive your car and do what makes you happy guys. You dont need to preach all day about what your run.

[FastBimmerN54]

Originally Posted by Tzu

Right, and your original sales pitch for the rev3 lacked this info leading everyone to beleive this was possible with a rev2. It wasn't a big deal though becuse instructions for updating the rev2 to a 2.5 (via hardware rework) was going to be posted "next week," stated almost 3 months ago. So until then, my AFR & timing will look like shit. This is admitting that the rev2.5 has control necessary that the rev2 doesnt. Please work on your delivery dates, or don't give dates at all.

Now I'm fine with remapping fuel and ignition on my own using the tables. Yet this is impossible because I own a rev2. I find it odd that you guys shipped me a rev2 the day before you announced the rev3, knowing that I had a PWM kit on order and I was going to lambda tune. I mentioned that to you on purpose.

What I find odd is that the new rev3 is able to do what it does somewhat, based on better hardware. This hardware is based around a processor which for the most part was chosen for its increased duty cycle to perform calculations, sampling frequency, overall speed. Yet the older and slower hardware is still adequate for stock maps, which are the same number of cells adressed, calculations performed, processor I/O. See the logic flaw?

Another cool story irrelevant to the OP's first question. Make your own thread or take up your personal problems with Vishnu on a personal level.

[Brey335i]

Does the JB4 really control timimg like the Procede? Nobody will ever know...

However, I can say with certainty that a bunch of BMW owners can be more immature than a kindergarten

[Skydive]

Originally Posted by Jeff@topgearsolutions

This is the ONLY community I've seen do this.... Every other community helps each other out. It's like they can't sleep at night unless everyone drives the same tune.

Drive your car and do what makes you happy guys. You dont need to preach all day about what your run.

The Audi guys are the same.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by Skydive

The Audi guys are the same.

Maybe its a European thing then (still doesn't make it right).

[MilehighM3]

Originally Posted by Jeff@topgearsolutions

What is laughable about a Meth kit on an M3? Its aquamist hardware, proven products, on an M3 which can benefit from cooling and octane benefits like any other car could.

For your friend with the 135 it sounds like something is wrong with the install, a traditional or better meth kit will advance timing significantly over pump gas. Why dont you just ask the tons of users currently running meth on this platform including myself. Want logs?

If you're as savvy as you think on the suby/evo forums you know the aquamist hardware is the most respected in the methanol industry....

If you read his dyno threads he claims he uses meth as a safety buffer, common practice on anyone pushing boundaries that havnt been commonly used.

Sounds like you have a personal grudge against Shiv/vishnu which is nice, please take your personal attacks and opinions out of threads. Stick with hard data.

His 135 is currently still being tweaked via help from many people, including Vishnu. Again, his logs and dynos are around here. I'll leave his name out, but he does own 2 procedes. Still far from great results, even with rev3. Maybe altitude related, but we'll see. When did I say anything about Evos and Subys and meth? I simply stated that's a market that the procede is no longer considered in, thanks to Cobb. A grudge against Vishnu, no. Experience with their products in the past and service or lack there of, yes. Talk to Shiv about his dyno day back in 03 in Denver with Evos. Didn't fair so well. Thus my opinion, which is fact and personal experience based. I have a feeling my experience with this product line as well others is substantially greater than most people in here. I see it all my friend...

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by Bmw135er

His 135 is currently still being tweaked via help from many people, including Vishnu. Again, his logs and dynos are around here. I'll leave his name out, but he does own 2 procedes. Still far from great results, even with rev3. Maybe altitude related, but we'll see. When did I say anything about Evos and Subys and meth? I simply stated that's a market that the procede is no longer considered in, thanks to Cobb. A grudge against Vishnu, no. Experience with their products in the past and service or lack there of, yes. Talk to Shiv about his dyno day back in 03 in Denver with Evos. Didn't fair so well. Thus my opinion, which is fact and personal experience based. I have a feeling my experience with this product line as well others is substantially greater than most people in here. I see it all my friend...

I'm not sure one person in 3000 + ft elevation running into a few hiccups has an relevance in this thread but if that is what helps you sleep at night continue posting hard data? Cause I havn't seen any.

You do understand the physical stress of hardware in motors/turbo performs differently in high elevation?

When you mentioned Evo and Suby forums you said in essence that the vishnu tune was wiped out. Fine... (still irrelevant to this platform). He was also one of the fist to offer it for the EVO X '(also irrelevant). What contributions have you made to your communities in terms of tunes/hardware and performance parts? Does anyone come to your place of work bashing what you do? What sort of ulterior motives do you have here? Should the entire community sell their Procede and PWM kits now?

Now you are right you didn't mention Evo and Suby forums in relation to PWM kits, but you take their advice and follow their bandwagon on everything else including which tunes they wipe out and which tunes they use, right?

So then you would know that the most respected hardware for methanol is aquamist, and its currently used on both of those platforms as well as the Vishnu PWM kit. Yet you bash it cause hes using it on the M3 now?

We are talking about dyno's from 8 years ago now? On an entirely different platform? In the most harsh conditions? I can show you 100's of cars, with blown motors on dynos, from the most REPUTABLE tuners possible in the country with sound setups. Motors are not bulletproof, ever. Furthermore, in regards to DSM cars I know several people personally who had those ticking time bombs blow in stock form, stock boost.

Please tell us more how this is relevant to the original posters questions?

Thanks