[A418t81]

Originally Posted by Sparkplug

What's to prevent someone from buying the shark injector and then downloading a 'pirated' Dinan flash (i.e. a map that makes identical EM changes as the Dinan flash - thereby capitalizing on Dinan's r & d without paying for it)? If something goes wrong because of the flash the same person also gets an as-good-as-Dinan warranty because they can simply flash back to stock and screw BMW on the warranty.

Or worse, someone that has bought the Dinan flash can download a 'pirated' Dinan upgrade, or toy around on their own, or download a new tuner map from the In-ter-net. If, as a consequence, they nuke their engine, they can merrily flash back to the Dinan 'stock' flash and screw Dinan on its warranty.

All these internet file sharing flashbacks gives me a Napster flashback.
While I am uncertain that tuning EM parameter maps carry any intellectual property protection (are they any different than optimal EQ settings for your stereo?), facilitating/enabling (or participating in) warranty fraud is bound to raise some legal eyebrows.

Removing a piggyback prior to a service visit to avoid having your warranty voided carries a certain sporting 'catch me if you can' flavour to it. Reflashing to erase ECU traces of an engine wrecking home tuning experiment in order to get warranty coverage is a bit more brazen, and dare I say, fraudulent.

Piggyback tunes were obviously wreaking (or threatening to wreak) havoc with BMW's warranty (i.e. reliability) score on cars with the N54 engine. Just think what tossing the keys to the ECU to everyone without fear of detection will do.

Sharkedit is about to introduce to the BMW world the concept of custom tuning as "standard". As in other markets where the flash "revolution" has come in, maps are freely available one way or another. Thats all fine and dandy, but people still line up in droves to get custom tuned. This obviously capitalizes on the differences of every individual car and mod combo. People will still buy Dinan's product for its warranty...which is the main reason why it's bought over any other tuner. That won't change. Information stored inside the ECU will be available to whomever wants it, you can bet on that...but its hardly as bad as you guys try to make it out to be, because the maps that will be floating around will no longer be "one size fits all" and will still require a trip to the tuner for tweaking if the customer wants the car to run optimally.

[nj1266]

Originally Posted by lacartus

Interesting, this sounds similar to what killed the Evo piggyback market: a relatively inexpensive way of letting owners and tuners program the ECU. In the case of the Evo it was ECUflash (www.openecu.org): download the free software, buy a tactrix cable, a logger and you're all set (wideband O2 sensor is handy too). I still have my old Evo piggyback, a paper weight for which I could find no buyer.

Bingo...I have an Evo and I tune it myself using EcuFlash and I log the data using Evoscan. I can easily extract 30 hp and 30 ft-lbs of torque from an Evo with a TBE and drop-in filter.

Tuning is NOT hard, it is NOT voodo magic or black art. You need to do a lot of learning and reading, but if you have the time and passion, then you can do it.

I have been waiting for a cheap flashing alternative for the BMW/Mini. I am interested in the Mini. 30 mpg on a turbo car is to die for.

A flash is a million times better than a piggyback. I had an Xede on my Evo for a while and that thing was inconsistent, as almost all piggys are. Once I removed the piggy and went with ECUflash, I had consistency in the tune.

The prices for these proceeds/xedes/AA are going to drop for sure if the shark edit software catches on.

[nj1266]

Originally Posted by E82tt6

Agreed. Piggybacks=COMPLETELY obsolete as soon as this is released.

That is what happened to the Evo piggys once ECUflash hit the market. I paid $750 for my Xede. Now I cannot even sell it. It is a paper weight.

[Craigito]

Originally Posted by stevenc

Agreed. We need tools like this for those who are serious about racing their vehicle. But by pushing the vehicle, they should understand that they accept the liability for anything that goes wrong. Its not the tool, its the person.

Totally. If you nuke your engine because of a piggy back or your own custom tune where you boost to 20 psi and remove the speed limiter and go "see what this baby can do", you can't expect BMW to foot the bill. It's the person who decides to flash it all back to original, walk in the door, play dumb and say...."what's an ECU?" It's all about morals.

This is why I think the Dinan product will still sell. Most people are not like those on the board and would rather pay the extra money for an easy, conservative warranty covered flash. The peace of mind is worth it. Although at the prices mentioned...it's a pretty compelling alternative.

However, I might just buy it if I can get the instantaneous psi to show up on my trip computer

All this is very interesting though and will be following this thread closely.

[Jeeves915]

A boost gauge on my trip computer would be to DIE for...I'm already sold on this, but still...

[nj1266]

Originally Posted by A418t81

If this works out to be what I think it is, its going to be amazing. I am curious about the logging software, if any, that will be available or packaged with the tuning software.

Tuned my own GT35R Evo, looking forward to tuning the BMW!

Glad to see you are a member here. This is exciting stuff. I still own my Evo and I hope to add a mini S to the stable. I am hoping that the sharkedit can tune the latest mini as it says in the pdf file.

[nj1266]

Originally Posted by A418t81

What are you talking about? The quality of tuning available for the Evo went UP significantly after people could see what was being put on their ECUs. There were many "amateur" tuners who taught the "pros" a thing or two about proper tuning. Just because one gets paid to tune cars does not mean they are the pinnacle of the industry.

+1 That is what happened. I have seen some crappy pro maps as I am sure you have as well. Amateur tuners are a fantastic bunch of people on Evom

[stressdoc]

I get the feeling that the most heavily traveled site on E90post will be the Shark Injector forum section. Every little programming bit that someone tests out will get posted up for everyone to see and try themselves.

And not just in engine management. Crap, who really knows (besides Jim) where all this could lead. If he can build a flasher for the DME, why not for other smart functions.

[sambonator]

The questions I have are:

1., Can one use the SharkEdit to tune more than 1 car? I know the original SharkInjectors could only work on 1 vehicle. If a single SharkEdit unit can tune more than 1 car, what's to prevent me and 50 other e90post buddies from sharing the same device to tune all of our cars for the price of 1 SharkEdit unit? Does it get locked to a single VIN through the OBDII port?


2. I understand the SharkEdit can save the existing ECU MAP, which can be used later to revert the ECU back to "before" status. Can this "saved map" be transferred to other SharkEdit devices (via PC or otherwise)? I have a feeling the SharkEdit won't allow the saved MAP to be transferred, and may only allow the saved MAP to be flashed back to the original vehicle. This may be what prevents folks from transferring the DINAN tune from one car to another. There might even be a VIN specific code in the ECU MAPs, which prevents it from being transferred to other cars (other VIN numbers).

In fact, this "sharing" of MAPs for SharkEdit may just be sharing of the parameters that create the MAPs according the the Conforti program, and no actual MAPs may be getting transferred.

[Craigito]

Originally Posted by stressdoc

I get the feeling that the most heavily traveled site on E90post will be the Shark Injector forum section. Every little programming bit that someone tests out will get posted up for everyone to see and try themselves.

And not just in engine management. Crap, who really knows (besides Jim) where all this could lead. If he can build a flasher for the DME, why not for other smart functions.

Imagine all the cool I-drive customization

[Shuasha]

Originally Posted by sambonator

The questions I have are:

1., Can one use the SharkEdit to tune more than 1 car? I know the original SharkInjectors could only work on 1 vehicle. If a single SharkEdit unit can tune more than 1 car, what's to prevent me and 50 other e90post buddies from sharing the same device to tune all of our cars for the price of 1 SharkEdit unit? Does it get locked to a single VIN through the OBDII port?


2. I understand the SharkEdit can save the existing ECU MAP, which can be used later to revert the ECU back to "before" status. Can this "saved map" be transferred to other SharkEdit devices (via PC or otherwise)? I have a feeling the SharkEdit won't allow the saved MAP to be transferred, and may only allow the saved MAP to be flashed back to the original vehicle. This may be what prevents folks from transferring the DINAN tune from one car to another. There might even be a VIN specific code in the ECU MAPs, which prevents it from being transferred to other cars (other VIN numbers).

In fact, this "sharing" of MAPs for SharkEdit may just be sharing of the parameters that create the MAPs according the the Conforti program, and no actual MAPs may be getting transferred.

Read the pricing and description pdf's.

1. You pay one fee per VIN that you want to be able to flash to. So if you have a unit and you want to burn a custom map to 50 ECU's, that's 50 fees being charged at $200 each.

2. Software copied FROM an ECU is encrypted and tied to one VIN. It can not be copied to another car but can be reinstalled.

Also, he has said in other places that maps created by users/tuners can be shared, but can be "locked" so you can't edit them. They can also be freely shared if the creator wishes. Each ECU it is burned to still needs to be paid for in order to work.

[sambonator]

Originally Posted by Shuasha

Read the pricing and description pdf's.

1. You pay one fee per VIN that you want to be able to flash to. So if you have a unit and you want to burn a custom map to 50 ECU's, that's 50 fees being charged at $200 each.

2. Software copied FROM an ECU is encrypted and tied to one VIN. It can not be copied to another car but can be reinstalled.

Also, he has said in other places that maps created by users/tuners can be shared, but can be "locked" so you can't edit them. They can also be freely shared if the creator wishes. Each ECU it is burned to still needs to be paid for in order to work.

I did read the pricing and description PDF's, but nowhere did it mention anything about the SharkEdit being tied to a single VIN, nor was there any info in there in regard to the software from the ECU being encrypted and tied to a single VIN. How did you come to this conclusion from the PDF's?

[Shuasha]

Originally Posted by sambonator

I did read the pricing and description PDF's, but nowhere did it mention anything about the SharkEdit being tied to a single VIN, nor was there any info in there in regard to the software from the ECU being encrypted and tied to a single VIN. How did you come to this conclusion from the PDF's?

The shark edit isn't tied to one VIN. It will only program to ECU's with VINs that you have licensed. You can buy a Shark Edit and use it to program 1000 ECU's as long as they're licensed.

I believe the Shark Injector is what's tied to a single VIN and can be used for a remote distribution method for remote tunes. Have your tuner email you a file, put it on your injector and install the new software.

And the pdf said "Flash Pak (level 1 – per PSt)".

[jcarlucci1]

Originally Posted by Shuasha

Read the pricing and description pdf's.

1. You pay one fee per VIN that you want to be able to flash to. So if you have a unit and you want to burn a custom map to 50 ECU's, that's 50 fees being charged at $200 each.

Ths doesn't make sense..don't you mean that each editor ($299) is locked to a specific vin? Jim has already said that the maps are able to be shared, so if you wanted to flash 50 different ecu's with the same map you can, assuming you have bought 50 separate licenses/editors (sharkedit), one for each ecu.

[mwahlert]

hopefully shark edit is VIN locked (efi live) - not file locked (hp tuners).

hp tuners requires you to license FILES - not VIN's...it sucks... most people prefer the VIN license structure, but file license structure provides tighter secuirty/control.

[aaronb]

Anyone know: If I wanted to do the dual-ecu thing, can I buy another ecu, have it coded, THEN swap it in and out?

Doubt I'd do it, but just curious...

[SP335]

Originally Posted by Craigito

Totally. If you nuke your engine because of a piggy back or your own custom tune where you boost to 20 psi and remove the speed limiter and go "see what this baby can do", you can't expect BMW to foot the bill. It's the person who decides to flash it all back to original, walk in the door, play dumb and say...."what's an ECU?" It's all about morals.

This is a 2 way street. Say you put on any after market product, something breaks which is totally unrelated and not caused by the after market product and BMW voids your warranty. They have and will continue to do this. BMW morals?

[MNR0]

This sounds pretty good.

Although, I don't think it will hurt the piggy market too much, or the existing tuners out there as MOST ppl. who own 335s aren't capable of tuning their own car or ready to wear any damages they may cause because they
decided to jack in 50* timing at full boost.

While this sounds like a wonder pill, it really only targets those who know what they are doing.

Good stuff JC...

[NRG]

Originally Posted by MNR0

This sounds pretty good.

Although, I don't think it will hurt the piggy market too much, or the existing tuners out there as MOST ppl. who own 335s aren't capable of tuning their own car or ready to wear any damages they may cause because they
decided to jack in 50* timing at full boost.

While this sounds like a wonder pill, it really only targets those who know what they are doing.

Good stuff JC...

Or you could always get the "Injector" alone with the base 12psi map from Jim, if you don't want to mess with the "Edit" (software). By the looks of it the 12psi map would be more then enough for the most of us.

[stressdoc]

Couple of points.

1) So far as I am aware, multiple ECUs is beyond the normal human's DIY ability.

2) There is a fair bit of confusion regarding multiple car flashes with the Shark Edit system. It looks to me, naive as I am in regard to such things, that Jim has set up several levels of sharing potential. One level of injector will be limited to one car. Your personal injector. But you can get a version of the personal injector that will allow you to program & share programs. But your injector still works on just your car and no one else's. On another level there are commercial injectors that can inject multiple cars.

3) There is a lot of bitching about BMW denying warranty claims for supposedly bogus reasons. Look carefully at these claims and you will see a pattern. To my limited knowledge, the vast majority of warranty issues are handled appropriately by BMW. A few cases look funny because the justification that we are told by the owners -- stuff like aftermarket wheels, exhaust systems, etc. -- looks bogus. But remember, field engineers have access to info that the dealers do not. And so the dealer/SA may give a bogus reason, but at base the denial is correct. The early E46 M3 engine problems were an exception that eventually got sorted out. IMO, in regard to warranty, BMW is out to do the right thing. There is a pervasive attitude that it's OK to defraud corporations. But the rest of us end up paying for it, much like shoplifting.

[Kerosene Hat]

Originally Posted by MNR0

While this sounds like a wonder pill, it really only targets those who know what they are doing.

Good stuff JC...

Not from what I read - sounds like I buy the SharkEdit, Injector + Maps. It allows the home tuner to write new maps, but this is not just a portal to the ECU - there will be other pre-loaded maps available.

From what I can read, the toughest thing for the enthusiast who DOESN'T want to create his own map would be to select a reliable, trustworthy map...which goes with the whole "pro" licensing and seeing which, if any, other players currently tuning the N54 will hop on board with Jim.

I have a feeling if other tuners hop on board, whether they publicize ability to use their maps via SharkEdit OR if they private-label their tunes, this will be a game-changer for all.

[Klepper1]

Originally Posted by NRG

Or you could always get the "Injector" alone with the base 12psi map from Jim, if you don't want to mess with the "Edit" (software). By the looks of it the 12psi map would be more then enough for the most of us.

That's exactly what I want. I don't want to "edit". I want the map developed be the expert!