[InCityPhoto]

Originally Posted by Sniz

this has to do with how BMS misleads its consumers terribly.

This thread is not about showing what BMS tells people, its about telling people what the JB system actually does and does not do..

Originally Posted by gbreeE90

Well it shouldn't fail, correct? Sorry for that off topic question.

Everything can fail, and Meth is something that can cause big problems real fast, if you would like to learn more, start a new thread and all these guys will give you a TON of great information about meth and fail safes and how it works.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by Sniz

this has to do with how BMS misleads its consumers terribly.

+1 just last week mike said the jb4 runs the proper timing curve for its boost level.

Its all about wording, to a new guy, that to me sounds like the jb4 control timing right?

In reality, it should say, you bought a boost control and the stock ecu attempt to CONSTNATLY figure out the timing curve based on repeated knock.

[Sniz]

Originally Posted by gbreeE90

Well it shouldn't fail, correct? Sorry for that off topic question.

it will fail eventually, its a pump with parts that wear out. Seems the typical lifespan of a meth pump is around 2 years from what Ive seen given regular use.

less if its a cheap one or you use large concentrations of meth.

[RambleJ]

Originally Posted by Joshboody

boy, had to catch up on the reading. The JB camp is basically in denial. I'm sure there will be more proof in the future, but the N54 is apparently very tough... so will take a little time to see the actually differences between stock timing, and some type of timing control at high psi.

Some seem to think it's ok to run with knock because this is like stock. At high boost, knock is not only more severe, but also more frequent just because of the timing curve targeted and retard levels when knock is measured.

How long do we have to wait? Till the N54 engine is obsolete? In the 200k mile range? Not like the jb3 is a new tune.. Wouldn't we have seen hundreds of JB3 engine failures by now? Or is this engine just built like a tank? (obvious sarcasm)

[Sniz]

Originally Posted by RambleJ

How long do we have to wait? Till the N54 engine is obsolete? In the 200k mile range? Not like the jb3 is a new tune.. Wouldn't we have seen hundreds of JB3 engine failures by now? Or is this engine just built like a tank? (obvious sarcasm)

seems to be the case honestly, hell of a strong engine given the massive amounts of abuse it takes.

[InCityPhoto]

Originally Posted by Clap135

+1 just last week mike said the jb4 runs the proper timing curve for its boost level.

Its all about wording, to a new guy, that to me sounds like the jb4 control timing right?

In reality, it should say, you bought a boost control and the stock ecu attempt to CONSTNATLY figure out the timing curve based on repeated knock.

I guess you know what the "new guy" reads, he did not say it controlled timing, he said that the car will run the proper timing while running the JB4

You are putting your opinion on what he said, he put's his opinion on what he said.

"knock frequency's" not "knock" if it were actual knock you would feel and hear it. But then again, You cant provide the severity of each knock, so your opinion is invalid.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by RambleJ

How long do we have to wait? Till the N54 engine is obsolete? In the 200k mile range? Not like the jb3 is a new tune.. Wouldn't we have seen hundreds of JB3 engine failures by now? Or is this engine just built like a tank? (obvious sarcasm)

Its a combination of most of these cars are leases, and the engine is strong. Honestly I can't think of one pump gas jb car thats been around for many years. Hotrod comes to mind always pushing things, however hotrod also had like 4 335is in the 2 years i have been here.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by InCityPhoto

I guess you know what the "new guy" reads, he did not say it controlled timing, he said that the car will run the proper timing while running the JB4

You are putting your opinion on what he said, he put's his opinion on what he said.

"knock frequency's" not "knock" if it were actual knock you would feel and hear it. But then again, You can provide the severity of each knock, so your opinion is invalid.

knock frequency is knock, try again.
By definition it is the frequency that knock occures at.
You, up to date, havnt provided anything, so your opinion is not only invalid, but also worthless.
either way saying the timing curve is spot on for jb4 users is a lie. WHy didnt you respond to my other comment. I am going to break it down/ dumb it down on your level one last time.

The stock has a preset timing curve, the car will run that preset timing curve or until knock is detected and for that period of timing, it will lower the timing curve due to knock. After some time, the ecu will once again advance timing untill it hits the preset timing curve or knocks again.

When you add boost, the same preset timing curve has to be lowered or else the frequency/pressure of hte knock even increases.
If you add boost and leave the stock timing curve, it is just like driving a stock car in shit condition everytime you floor the car, despite the car operating in normal elevation and temperatures. If you are fine with flooring your car in 100 plus degree heat everytime you floor it. Knock your self out, no pun intended.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by RambleJ

How long do we have to wait? Till the N54 engine is obsolete? In the 200k mile range? Not like the jb3 is a new tune.. Wouldn't we have seen hundreds of JB3 engine failures by now? Or is this engine just built like a tank? (obvious sarcasm)

There have been many more engine failures than many care to acknowledge. When most people have engine failure, they put their car back to stock, and quietly bring their car to a dealership with hopes that it will be repaired under warranty. Most DON'T post online saying "my engine failed while I was running X tune". When faced with a $10-20k repair price, most people opt for the path of least resistance. If you ever get a chance to talk to a BMW field rep, ask him how often he sees instances of n54 engine failure.

Shiv

[Sniz]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

There have been many more engine failures than many care to acknowledge. When most people have engine failure, they put their car back to stock, and quietly bring their car to a dealership with hopes that it will be repaired under warranty. Most DON'T post online saying "my engine failed while I was running X tune". When faced with a $10-20k repair price, most people opt for the path of least resistance. If you ever get a chance to talk to a BMW field rep, ask him how often he sees instances of n54 engine failure.

Shiv

I can believe that, would love to see BMW inside reports on the #'s.

not likely though.

[InCityPhoto]

Originally Posted by Clap135

knock frequency is knock, try again.
By definition it is the frequency that knock occures at.
You, up to date, havnt provided anything, so your opinion is not only invalid, but also worthless.

Knock is not all the same though, as we have agreed there is different levels. So in theory these "frequency's" could be coming from the SLIGHTEST of knock that has no damage or effect to the N54.

[RambleJ]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

There have been many more engine failures than many care to acknowledge. When most people have engine failure, they put their car back to stock, and quietly bring their car to a dealership with hopes that it will be repaired under warranty. Most DON'T post online saying "my engine failed while I was running X tune". When faced with a $10-20k repair price, most people opt for the path of least resistance. If you ever get a chance to talk to a BMW field rep, ask him how often he sees instances of n54 engine failure.

Shiv

Well then that brings another question. If there really are hundreds of failures from tunes, how do we know its not user error. Running race gas maps on pump gas, Running meth with no failsafes. As I have always said and will continue to say, it is all purely speculation.

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by InCityPhoto

Knock is not all the same though, as we have agreed there is different levels. So in theory these "frequency's" could be coming from the SLIGHTEST of knock that has no damage or effect to the N54.

The 335is has timing limits backed down 3 degrees from the 335i value.

Why do you think this is?

Does it not seem like decreased timing limits were imposed by BMW because the boost is increased on the 335is? Further support to this claim would b that all other turbo cars that are tuned, decrease timing tk the point that knock events are not seen. BMW has done the same on the 335is?

Starting to see the point here yet?

[topspin]

Originally Posted by InCityPhoto

And this has what to do with timing or using the OEM knock sensor that BMS currently uses?

Im sorry, but as a professional in my own business, you should have respect for competitors, even if you feel they have done and or are doing wrong.

Two wrongs don't make a right Shiv.

I wouldn't want the thread to get too far off track but I think what Shiv said is somewhat relevant to the discussion. A lot of what people say in support of the JB way of tuning is regurgitated arguments originally made by Mike / Terry. If their credibility is damaged then it sort of weakens the repeated arguments as well.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by InCityPhoto

Knock is not all the same though, as we have agreed there is different levels. So in theory these "frequency's" could be coming from the SLIGHTEST of knock that has no damage or effect to the N54.

i added to my past. You once again have no proof that adding the frequecny and duration of these knock event arnt more harmful. Which car will last longer, the one in 105 degree weather at 1k above sealevel or the one in 50 degree weather at sealevel. So in other words, the one that constantly detects knock, or the one that almost never detects knock.

[InCityPhoto]

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

The 335is has timing limits backed down 3 degrees from the 335i value.

Why do you think this is?

Does it not seem like decreased timing limits were imposed by BMW because the boost is increased on the 335is? Further support to this claim would b that all other turbo cars that are tuned, decrease timing tk the point that knock events are not seen. BMW has done the same on the 335is?

Starting to see the point here yet?

This is so off topic, Yes they decreased timing, That does not say that doing it the other way is wrong or "damaging" the N54.

You guys are going around in circles.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by lemanse92

Clap and everyone else, here is another log from another friend of mine. This time PID autotune is on I think??? On a JB4 FBO m/t

That log looks fine. autopid is the not the same as autotune. The autotune monitors drop outs like that and adjusts for them over many runs. So if he had that enabled next run he would have a lower chance of the drop out as the system learned. And as I've said before which Cobb agrees with and no one with any credibility has disputed, the drop outs in one cylinder themselves are not traditional knock.

Mike

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by RambleJ

Well then that brings another question. If there really are hundreds of failures from tunes, how do we know its not user error. Running race gas maps on pump gas, Running meth with no failsafes. As I have always said and will continue to say, it is all purely speculation.

But the stock sensor is awesome, why run race gas or meth, the stock ecu will just lower timing to where it should be and the knock sensor will react in time to save the car...

[DaFish]

Originally Posted by themyst

I suppose u missed that part on the first reply on page 7? Knocking at 13-14 psi is far different from knocking at 8 psi.

But where are the blown motors, or the damage, or the countless threads saying JB4 caused XXX.... I just don't see them, and they would be there as we all know. Are there more threads with issues on JB4 vs COBB vs procede? All vendors have issues from what I have read.

I am not a JB4 or Procede, cobb or Dinan proponent. I am looking for the next tune....

What I do see is very competitive performance on these tunes - apparently arriving at that performance quite differently. If safety is an issue, it would show in the form of damage in the long run - in my opinion.

Why does HP Autowerks - who I have the utmost respect for with regards to track testing and tons of experience and knowledge - sell JB3 (http://www.hpashop.com/product.sc?pr...categoryId=182) or (http://www.hpashop.com/product.sc?pr...categoryId=182) if it was not safe or didn't get results - those guys know what they are doing. It is all backed up with the testing on the track that beats cars to submission.... that vendor is not Mike/Terry..... This to me HAS credibility.

I also feel Clap and others has a vendatta too.... that troubles me. I find the comments in these threads (multiple threads) abut Mike/Terry absolutely disrespectful. I just don't think it is called for.

I may or may not agree with Clap (and others) about whether or not their arguments make sense but I am not going to berate and belittle him - it is just not cool.

What I think is reasonable is for you to give your opinion, offer what you believe to be substantial proof in what you are saying, then back off and let others decide if they are to buy their products. That to me seems a lot more fair than a personal attack on the credibility of Mike/Terry.

This is my opinion.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by Sniz

It is still shocking to me how freaking blind a lot of those community is (basically anyone running a JB tune)

I was at the track last Friday, 2 JB cars there, both on multiple runs blew large white puffs out of the tailpipes........i'm sure that was pre-knock and in no way could damage the engine right? Thats what Merry said so it must be true.

RIGHT?

there was also a COBB car there, Boom. He posted his logs. His car was happy.

You mean this Cobb log?



Mike

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

That log looks fine. autopid is the not the same as autotune. The autotune monitors drop outs like that and adjusts for them over many runs. So if he had that enabled next run he would have a lower chance of the drop out as the system learned. And as I've said before which Cobb agrees with and no one with any credibility has disputed, the drop outs in one cylinder themselves are not traditional knock.

Mike

But when I asked cobb what the drop out are, they don't know. And we both know monitoring cylinder 1 for knock events is garabage, cause its not the hot cylinder.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

You mean this Cobb log?



Mike

Can you show me a stock car running a jb4 at 15psi? Cause it will make the timing drop in 4th look like nothing compared to the rollercoaster timing curve on the jb4