[dzenno]

Quick update: car still smokes but i really think it's quite a bit less. I had someone drive my car for 20mins while I was in theirs tonight "watching" lol my god I'm turning into a freak lol anyways I think it's looking better, not "solved" for sure but I think it's improved and possibly points at a drain issue..didn't have time to hit the shop tonight hopefully tomorrow...I'll wait for the oil indicator to budge before giving the next update on oil consumption, but what I saw tonight smoke wise isn't "bad" by any stretch of imagination, just a tiny puff here and there, sometimes both tailpipes sometimes just left or right but not CLOUDS...and always on throttle lift after a run, nothing cruising or decel or idle

Overall easy ride only 3-4 quick pulls here and there...

[Adam Way]

BMW135er,

Thanks! I think it might be wise to back down my boost from what I was running. I am curious what the turbo limits are. Anyone with RBs running 21? I have map 2 at 18 in Colorado.

[GeorgeSmooth]

Originally Posted by Adam Way

I have run and will continue to run OEM oil. Any thoughts on what I should set boost limit on Procede at 7,000 ft elevation?

If you run with race fuel and meth I wouldn't be concerned about maxing the boost at 20psi. I am at a slightly lower altitude than you (5500ft) and the car and turbos seem fine.
The boost target comment is not exactly correct. Assume your turbos have to spin at X thousand rpm to make 15psi at 0ft altitude. The turbos will have to spin at X+k to make the 15psi at 7000ft. You will have to work out the barometric drop at your altitude which should be around 2psi. Therefore the turbos need to spin 2psi worth of rpm to make up the loss therefore same boost but higher spinning turbos. So in affect at max your turbos are spinning the equivalent of 22psi to make 20psi at altitude which is within the turbos threshold in my belief.
Your power will not be the same as coast at same boost due to lower oxygen content, you will also notice a greater power drop at high rpm vs the cars at the coast. You will also notice that race fuel is needed for far higher boost than what the guys at the coast as at altitude the car is less prone to detonation.
When experimenting for high power applications at your altitude expect the power to max out at around 460-470whp with similar midrange power as the coastal guys.
Sorry for the thread jack but needed to answer the query.

[MilehighM3]

That is true about the loss of top end, you also loose bottom end. The car does compensate with 1 per though. So if you're at 7k, it's adding 3. Although it does max at 4 psi I'm pretty sure. I'm also about 6-7k feet. My car adds 3psi and so does every other one I've seen/tested around here. Not trying to argue, just for clarification purposes.

[Rob@RBTurbo]

So is Adam back out terrorizing the streets yet?

[MilehighM3]

Should be tomorrow

[GeorgeSmooth]

Originally Posted by Bmw135er

That is true about the loss of top end, you also loose bottom end. The car does compensate with 1 per though. So if you're at 7k, it's adding 3. Although it does max at 4 psi I'm pretty sure. I'm also about 6-7k feet. My car adds 3psi and so does every other one I've seen/tested around here. Not trying to argue, just for clarification purposes.

Adam mentioned his running a procede which has its own boost maps and is not a +over the stock boost map.

[sear]

On the boost at Altitude question, my understanding is this (for stock or other tune).

The DME (or tune) logic senses an absolute manifold pressure, but always presents this the the user via logs (or an in dash gauge in the proceed case) as Absolute pressure read (in psi) - 1 atmosphere (14.7psi at sea level).

So the boost reading often discussed is really psi above 1 atmosphere and NOT psi above your locat atmosheric pressure which is actually less than 14.7psi as you go up in altitude. At just over 6k ft where I live, at ldle my logs will show anywhere from -2.7psi to -3psi depending on the weather that day.

What this means is that your turbos need to spin more RPM to achieve the same manifold boost target at altiitude than they to at se level. The best recomendation IMHO for how to setup max boost at altitude is to figure out how much you would be comfortable running with at sea level and subtract off the difference for how much lower your base atmospheric pressure would be. In the case of 7kft, I'd recommend 3psi less than what you would be comfortable boosting in your setup at sea level.

Obviously there is a factor of judgment involved, but its hard to get away from that. If you want the actual pressure chagnes as altitude rises, there are a bunch of sites that have this info.

[dzenno]

update: last night i went to the shop, got the downpipes out of the way and the intercooler dropped. there's no in-out play in either one of the turbos. There is play up/down and side/side on both which is fine BUT on the front turbo just above the turbine where there's a marking on the housing that shows a scrape from the turbine wheel. When you grab the turbine wheel on this front turbo and push it up towards the scrape in the housing it will actually touch the housing and won't be able to turn which indicates somewhat excessive shaft play as this shouldn't happen.

In terms of smoke, its definitely less with the new 5W-30 oil than it was with mobil1 0w-40 and in my case, those times when there is a bit of smoke its mostly the passenger side (bank2/rear turbo), not front which has the shaft play/scrape. There's no smoke at idle, no smoke during acceleration or deceleration. It only ever smokes after accelerating at the time of throttle lift and, with the new oil, its not bad at all. I looked at it myself driving in another car behind mine and last night my mechanic who saw the smoking with mobil1 followed me on the way home for a while and said its considerably less.

I'm still keeping an eye on the oil consumption. So far with my driving style, which I'm not changing lol, i've had to add 1L of oil about every 2000km. Driven 200km so far and the oil indicator is still on max since the oil change.

In terms of oil on the turbos, the only place I have some is around the rear intake where it hooks up to the rear turbos compressor inlet. That bend where it goes towards the compressor has considerable oil sweating on it and there's some oil on the components around it. I'm not concerned about this but I would like the rear intake tube to sit better on the turbo compressor but that's always been next to impossible to get right so the oil there is just blowby due to no catch can anymore

Looked at the FMIC as well, on the bottom of the FMIC under the hot side end tank it was dirty with oil but pretty dry. After taking the FMIC off there was no oil in either end tank like it was the case when my front turbo went. We had it sit on one side until we did everything and in the end there was maybe third a teaspoon of oil that collected...that's just blowby and love how my FMIC acts as an amazing catch can, it even drains oil on its own lol

Here's the pics:

[Syndicategt]

Just curious,

All you guys running the upgraded turbos, how many of you replaced the 4 stock oil feed lines? I bought new ones just in case, I wonder if the old ones are causing some issues.

[dzenno]

Originally Posted by Syndicategt

Just curious,

All you guys running the upgraded turbos, how many of you replaced the 4 stock oil feed lines? I bought new ones just in case, I wonder if the old ones are causing some issues.

I used ALL brand new hardware from Tischer...one thing though, the new oil drain lines will be tough to get in there as they're not preformed shape-wise...its way easier to use the old drain lines IF they're in working condition and you clean them out and make sure they're fine before reinstalling...but you'll see when you get to install them or whoever it is that's installing it for you...had I known that before I would've gone with the original drain lines and not touched them and saved a few bucks

[MilehighM3]

Originally Posted by GeorgeSmooth

[Adam mentioned his running a procede which has its own boost maps and is not a over the stock boost map.

Thats what most people think, but it's false actually. See Sear's post below. Even with built in software like Dinan, the DME still adds more boost. It makes tuning around these parts (6k ) even more difficult.

[Joshboody]

Originally Posted by Bmw135er

Thats what most people think, but it's false actually. See Sear's post below. Even with built in software like Dinan, the DME still adds more boost. It makes tuning around these parts (6k ) even more difficult.

I don't know what you are trying to explain, BUT:
procede will target boost that the user sets and this is boost + 14.5psi. MAP at sea level is the same as at altitude, but turbos work harder to reach target. When logging you will see the difference at idle. DME can't correct procede's target, as it's driving boost control itself.

Flashes will target a load (map and temp) and probably have some correction based on baro and/or WGDC... this is probably not changed by the flash.

This is off topic though

[dzenno]

Ya off topic guys, wrong thread

[Joshboody]

Dzenno, I don't know what to think of the radial play, but can't be good and I would imagine seals have to be effected. When I changed my DPs I did NOT notice any play in my stock turbos with 65k miles. But there is some tolerance in all rotating parts, and this could be different between stock and RBs.

[dzenno]

Originally Posted by Joshboody

Dzenno, I don't know what to think of the radial play, but can't be good and I would imagine seals have to be effected. When I changed my DPs I did NOT notice any play in my stock turbos with 65k miles. But there is some tolerance in all rotating parts, and this could be different between stock and RBs.

ya play definitely isn't good but oil pressure should help prevent it...we'll see, there's quite a bit of "limited" warranty left, hopefully i finally get some good times out of this set at the track as well...tons of fun on the street so far with the exception of smoke/troubleshooting

[sear]

Originally Posted by dzenno

Ya off topic guys, wrong thread

sorry , we were just trying to answer a question from the OP several posts above. Clearly it was on topic for him.

[Adam Way]

Update. Have vehicle back now. Drove 5 miles today. No smoke that I see thus far. Planning on running map zero for 1000 miles and driving very careful as well. Hoping this gives turbos chance to very carefully break in. $3K later I am back up and running. Plan to run modest boost for first 3000 miles then see what happens.

[MilehighM3]

I know several of us are hoping to hear good news both sort and long term. Those of us that want a nice bolt on turbo kit, that will hopefully be plug and play with little fine tuning to get the most out of an upgrade such as this.

[Aridk]

Been following this thread with interest as I was planning to upgrade with Rb at some time. Denzo seeing your picture I have Oil in the same place as you around the Helix, don´t know if it´s normal when not running an oilcatch can?

[dzenno]

Originally Posted by Aridk

Been following this thread with interest as I was planning to upgrade with Rb at some time. Denzo seeing your picture I have Oil in the same place as you around the Helix, don´t know if it´s normal when not running an oilcatch can?

Without a catch can the intercooler acts like one so ya its normal as long as it's not excessive

[bulldog_yyc]

Originally Posted by dzenno

Quick update: car still smokes but i really think it's quite a bit less. I had someone drive my car for 20mins while I was in theirs tonight "watching" lol my god I'm turning into a freak lol anyways I think it's looking better, not "solved" for sure but I think it's improved and possibly points at a drain issue..didn't have time to hit the shop tonight hopefully tomorrow...I'll wait for the oil indicator to budge before giving the next update on oil consumption, but what I saw tonight smoke wise isn't "bad" by any stretch of imagination, just a tiny puff here and there, sometimes both tailpipes sometimes just left or right but not CLOUDS...and always on throttle lift after a run, nothing cruising or decel or idle

Overall easy ride only 3-4 quick pulls here and there...

nice running into you yesterday! was on my way to a work function down by the harbourfront.

Anyways - I knew it was you because I noticed a small amount of smoke when you were idling at the light and recognized your rims..... the CF trunk looks great!

Anyways, the smoke was noticeable in little puffs but not a cloud or anything and it wasn't specifically a blue color, just more of a "sooty" type puff if that makes sense. Similar to John's car but not as bad as I thought it would be by reading some of your earlier posts. Car looks great man, hope you guys resolve this smoking problem soon.