[klipseracer]

Originally Posted by Syndicategt

LOL....well if I would have put a $ in front of the 0.25 then it would be plural fractions.

....I'm just confused now

.25 cents is 1/4 centS. multiple 1/4 cent.

[EastBayE90]

Originally Posted by Skydive

It depends what kind of "track" one has in mind. There are road courses, ovals, drag strips, and even dirt tracks. All are race tracks. All are different. It's really hard to build a single car that goes really well at any two of those tracks. It gets even harder when you want to take the same car out for pancakes on Sunday morning with a pretty girl happily riding shotgun.

It *is* possible to modify a stock N54 car tastefully, so that you're happy at Fontana on Friday night, and Willow Springs on Saturday, and your wife is happy on Sunday morning... but you're not going to set any course records, and you're not going to do any of it with the biggest turbocharger you can wedge in next to the motor. You're going to do it with experience and carefully selected components, which may (or may not) include a larger frame single turbocharger and the right center section.

-Michael

Very well put. One must always be conscious of his/her plans for the cars future. It is never wise to just throw parts on for the hell of it or just because it is bigger. I for one am very keen on your last idea, a sort of well rounded car. Once I am out of warranty and my turbos go south. I would love to have a clean and simple single turbo setup (like this one) making well balanced power at the drag strip and sears point, thunder hill or laguna. I would still play with it on Sunday's and scare the lady. I'm in it for the long haul with this car and I am not here to break every single record only some. Hehe

[Lulz_M3]

Originally Posted by Skydive

People know what they want. They just don't realize that getting it is a compromise. They don't realize, (or otherwise want to acknowledge), is that bigger only better to a point, with street cars. This is particularly true when the platform begins as a refined sports sedan or sport coupe with the accoutrements that we all paid for when the decided not to purchase a less expensive, less refined cars. I suspect that we'll see a few very fast track cars, and some less than happy folks who've ruined their daily drivers trying to make equally fast street cars.

-Michael

This is a personal opinion. For example, the two guys that posted above mentioned 500whp EVO's. These two guys would be THRILLED to have a big single on their N54, assuming they came from a 2L with a big single that made them very happy, and in your opinion would have been a compeletely unacceptable power band for a DD. They, however, loved that power band, as do I. As with all performance upgrades, some people will be overjoyed with the added power and forget about the lag, others will whine and complain about how they hate waiting for boost now and its the worst decision they have ever made. I dont know about you guys, but i will be more than happy shifting a little later in RPM's.

[Bash]

Originally Posted by Lulz_M3

This is a personal opinion. For example, the two guys that posted above mentioned 500whp EVO's. These two guys would be THRILLED to have a big single on their N54, assuming they came from a 2L with a big single that made them very happy, and in your opinion would have been a compeletely unacceptable power band for a DD. They, however, loved that power band, as do I. As with all performance upgrades, some people will be overjoyed with the added power and forget about the lag, others will whine and complain about how they hate waiting for boost now and its the worst decision they have ever made. I dont know about you guys, but i will be more than happy shifting a little later in RPM's.

+1, each driver has unique driving and style, i for one will never go for the single because my car is a DD and 80% of my driving is in the city of Beirut which is small compared to anything in the US, so i will never swap my 2 little snails to a laggy single. As for revving higher, if you are AT its going to be awkward unless you tend to drive in manual.
And lets not forget the e90s have different gearing than the EVOs so you cant compare the all round driving experience with those cars.

[Fred_Boosted]

Originally Posted by Syndicategt

I think it's twice the amount of his 0.25 cents.

Ehh thats a typo...

[Fred_Boosted]

Originally Posted by Syndicategt

Don't even know how to attack this. I'm fairly certain a Spec Miata, e30, or even E36 are better choices....as for best choices, well that depends on how much money you are willing to spend.

Good point.

Miata, S2000 are track toy... you can put less money on them but still have fun. But not enough power to enjoy.

E30, E36... They are... if you put less money on it... Its not fun... If you put $$$$ on it... I don't think its worth.

However, for EVOs and STis. Stage 2 with a fuel system upgrade can give you the power you want and upgrade coilovers and sway bars can give you amazing handling.
Uprade brake lines, rotors and pads can give you superior stop power.

And its not expansive to mod... and easy to mod... buy an used EVO X or latest STi is like 25K or 28K with decent mileage, plus 7K MODs, you are good to kick some ass.

[starmo]

Look what happens to thread when there's no real updates I'm sure if Shiv just showed you a 650whp dyno everyone would stop talking nonsense lol

[Skydive]

Originally Posted by Lulz_M3

This is a personal opinion. For example, the two guys that posted above mentioned 500whp EVO's. These two guys would be THRILLED to have a big single on their N54, assuming they came from a 2L with a big single that made them very happy, and in your opinion would have been a compeletely unacceptable power band for a DD. They, however, loved that power band, as do I. As with all performance upgrades, some people will be overjoyed with the added power and forget about the lag, others will whine and complain about how they hate waiting for boost now and its the worst decision they have ever made. I dont know about you guys, but i will be more than happy shifting a little later in RPM's.

Granted, it's personal opinion. However, one needs to consider the FACT that the demographic of the Evo/STI market is considerably different than that of the E9x market. I suspect that there are going to be significantly fewer folks here who will be pleased with a daily driver that suffers badly at the low end to make huge power at the top.

I'm going to hold my cards close for now because I would prefer not to give our competitors the benefit of our experience and design accumen just yet, but I will say that there are right ways to do a single turbo conversion, and many wrong ones. We've seen some interesting ideas here, and some exciting things from Vishnu, and some others from HPF...

It will take some time to bear out, but in the long run, the single kit that makes the most happy customers will not be the kit that makes the most top end power.

-Michael

[Transport3r]

Originally Posted by Lulz_M3

I dont know about you guys, but i will be more than happy shifting a little later in RPM's.

I'd LOVE for this engine to keep making linear power until ~8500 RPM

Alright 8000 will do... maybe..

Imagine the noise it'll make!

[Fred_Boosted]

Originally Posted by joshuo

I'd LOVE for this engine to keep making linear power until ~8500 RPM

Alright 8000 will do... maybe..

Imagine the noise it'll make!

In N54?

Then you may need new rods and cams.

At least cams... I never trust stock rods.

BTW

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by starmo

Look what happens to thread when there's no real updates I'm sure if Shiv just showed you a 650whp dyno everyone would stop talking nonsense lol

Welcome to e90. ...home of the derail

[Rob@RBTurbo]

The kit that makes the most happy customers will be the one that is VERY low cost, easy to install, great fitment, original appearance, maintains desirable spool and drivability characteristics, demonstrates reliability, and shows moderate to substantial power increases beyond what the OEM Turbos can support. All without further compromising additional costs in engine management/fuel supply/or other supporting mods. In a nutshell, cost affective plug and play is what makes the "masses" happy.

The great thing about all of that is that there are already several options that satisfy each and every one of the above. A new from the ground up turbo solution is not going to achieve at least two to the above objectives (namely the cost); regardless of who you are, what or who you know, or what your experience is- it is just the way it is.

Additionally producing a setup which makes whopping amounts of power will definitely open up a pandoras box of other limitations in the platform. Whether it's in the short block internals, cylinder head port design, camshaft profiles, valvetrain, VANOS controls, or Fuel System. The Fuel system in itself as we all know is a massive hurdle, as it appears our only consideration is to tune to what the OEM Fuel HPFP or Direct Injectors can supply, without some significant efforts/risks/costs in modifying them (the LPFP we know can be fairly easily modified). Or perhaps you'd consider secondary injection, which seems to be a convoluted mess in all ways in my opinion, and will not come cheap to top it off.

Anyhow once that is all figured out you are left with exposing other platform weakpoints elsewhere in the drivetrain, suspension, or chassis. Before you know it you have $30+k in mods of which you can never come close to recovering without parting the car out, which is increasingly difficult because of the extent of the modifications.

All of this is going to significantly limit the amount of customers who are on the endless pursuit for more power, especially from a cost perspective. There will be pioneers (such as Shiv), or other fanatics with bottomless pockets, who will press forward but they aren't going to be looking for all around drivability- that limited group of guys already would've bought the cheaper Hybrid Upgrades and moved along with their day. The smaller few of fanatics will be going for the gold, breaking records (and piece by piece of their car), and will want to constantly push the platform to its most outer limits. This will take a lot of their time and money but we will all benefit from their efforts in the end, as we will then fully understand all of the platforms capabilities (or vulnerabilities).

Shiv, best of luck on this project and for sharing your progress.

[Q4P]

Originally Posted by RobBeck

The kit that makes the most happy customers will be the one that is VERY low cost, easy to install, great fitment, original appearance, maintains desirable spool and drivability characteristics, demonstrates reliability, and shows moderate to substantial power increases beyond what the OEM Turbos can support. All without further compromising additional costs in engine management/fuel supply/or other supporting mods. In a nutshell, cost affective plug and play is what makes the "masses" happy.

The great thing about all of that is that there are already several options that satisfy each and every one of the above. A new from the ground up turbo solution is not going to achieve at least two to the above objectives (namely the cost); regardless of who you are, what or who you know, or what your experience is- it is just the way it is.

Additionally producing a setup which makes whopping amounts of power will definitely open up a pandoras box of other limitations in the platform. Whether it's in the short block internals, cylinder head port design, camshaft profiles, valvetrain, VANOS controls, or Fuel System. The Fuel system in itself as we all know is a massive hurdle, as it appears our only consideration is to tune to what the OEM Fuel HPFP or Direct Injectors can supply, without some significant efforts/risks/costs in modifying them (the LPFP we know can be fairly easily modified). Or perhaps you'd consider secondary injection, which seems to be a convoluted mess in all ways in my opinion, and will not come cheap to top it off.

Anyhow once that is all figured out you are left with exposing other platform weakpoints elsewhere in the drivetrain, suspension, or chassis. Before you know it you have $30+k in mods of which you can never come close to recovering without parting the car out, which is increasingly difficult because of the extent of the modifications.

All of this is going to significantly limit the amount of customers who are on the endless pursuit for more power, especially from a cost perspective. There will be pioneers (such as Shiv), or other fanatics with bottomless pockets, who will press forward but they aren't going to be looking for all around drivability- that limited group of guys already would've bought the cheaper Hybrid Upgrades and moved along with their day. The smaller few of fanatics will be going for the gold, breaking records (and piece by piece of their car), and will want to constantly push the platform to its most outer limits. This will take a lot of their time and money but we will all benefit from their efforts in the end, as we will then fully understand all of the platforms capabilities (or vulnerabilities).

Shiv, best of luck on this project and for sharing your progress.

+1, Rob is the only person that has said anything useful in this thread outside of Shiv himself and he may know a thing or two about turbos.

For me the optimal setup is 500 WHP with a twin scroll turbo that spools around 2.5-3K (which is minimal lag) and has a powerband all the way to redline. I want all of this done on pump 93 gas without meth or other fueling additions and controlled by either a Procede or flash. I also want all of this done for 10K or under in a setup that maintains reliability; is awesome for street driving but can also do very well on any track.

High hopes but I honestly think that is what most people will be looking for. The record breakers will require a ton of supporting mods...

[Skydive]

Rob,

Most everything you say is true... but there is STILL a huge market for the right big turbo solution.

Look at what's been done with the B5 S4, for example. Granted we had a different fueling challenge, but a significant one nonetheless. The community started with OE K04s from the RS4, then went to various modified flavors of K04s, and now we have a few different viable, complete big turbo solutions with perhaps 350-500 cars so equipped, and very few people doing K04 conversions now that better, more complete solutions have become available. There is of course a runaway best-of-breed kit which has become the defacto choice, and still sells five or six kits every month. (The Audi 2.7 motor has been out of production for eight years and there were far fewer of them than there are N54s and N55s!)

There are plenty of folks who will spend $8,000-$10,000 on these cars, given a reliable solution of OEM quality that provides 600-750 whp in a street smooth package. I know it can be done. I believe it will be done. We have yet to discover the limits of the factory short block, but we found it in the Audis, and there too are many folks who spend the time and money to build motors to support the potential given them by the bigger turbo kits.

There will ALWAYS be a market for your RB turbos. It is an excellent choice of a lot of people. However, there's a vast market for people who want to achieve something more.

-Michael

[Syndicategt]

Skydive,

Are you still attempting your single build project?

[Slidewayz]

500 WHP on 91 pump gas w/o methane, fast spool and power to redline, ftw !!!

[Skydive]

Originally Posted by Syndicategt

Skydive,

Are you still attempting your single build project?

There are at least four interesting parallel efforts underway. I am strongly associated with one of them. It is well underway and moving forward according the the schedule set forth a couple of months ago. Given that there are parallel developments, we have chosen to remain quiet so as to retain what we believe are substantial competitive advantages given our experience and the array of development tools available to us.

-Michael

[klipseracer]

Originally Posted by Skydive

There are at least four interesting parallel efforts underway. I am strongly associated with one of them. It is well underway and moving forward according the the schedule set forth a couple of months ago. Given that there are parallel developments, we have chosen to remain quiet so as to retain what we believe are substantial competitive advantages given our experience and the array of development tools available to us.

-Michael

Well I've already completed my single turbo project. Its code named b7a4 lol.

[Rob@RBTurbo]

Don't mean to come off brash and I do wish you the best- But if you want to remain quiet there are probably better ways of doing so than diverting attention away from one of the biggest parallel efforts that is currently underway by actually posting about your own project (in a competitors thread for that matter) as superior/etc. All whilst you have nothing to actually share yourself. Just not a cool thing to do IMO, very uncouth. If you want to pound your chest and actually share something meaningful, you should do so via your own thread showing the headway you have made to date. Or simply do as you say your intentions are and remain quiet about said product until you have it manufactured and tested and let the product do the talking.

Originally Posted by Skydive

There are at least four interesting parallel efforts underway. I am strongly associated with one of them. It is well underway and moving forward according the the schedule set forth a couple of months ago. Given that there are parallel developments, we have chosen to remain quiet so as to retain what we believe are substantial competitive advantages given our experience and the array of development tools available to us.

-Michael

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by Syndicategt

Skydive,

Are you still attempting your single build project?

Originally Posted by Skydive

There are at least four interesting parallel efforts underway. I am strongly associated with one of them. It is well underway and moving forward according the the schedule set forth a couple of months ago. Given that there are parallel developments, we have chosen to remain quiet so as to retain what we believe are substantial competitive advantages given our experience and the array of development tools available to us.

-Michael

Wait wut? Ruh roh!?

[klipseracer]

I have prototyping developmental arrays of experimental test facilities fabricating themselves autonomously while spoken in foreign tongues of ludicrousness. But I won't say anymore.

[rader1]

Uhh, as best as i can tell skydive just said "we're working on it, but no solid info we feel comfortable sharing." Seems like a reasonable response to me. Maybe you should shiv about some specifics of the tuning aspects of his project and see what response you get.