[a31cefiro]

Originally Posted by a31cefiro

Dropped my car off to the dealership three days ago, and just got a call back today from my SA. He told me that the shop foreman and BMW engineers listened to my car and compared it to three other vehicles and concluded that the ticking is "normal". Not sure what to do at this point.

This is how my n55 sounds like during cold start-ups.

Dealership held on to my car for 3 full days and their answer was that it's normal? Doesn't sound like an acceptable answer to me.
What's your guy's opinion on this?

[Nebraska330xi]

Originally Posted by a31cefiro

Dealership held on to my car for 3 full days and their answer was that it's normal? Doesn't sound like an acceptable answer to me.
What's your guy's opinion on this?

**Edit, mine sounds exactly the same as yours in your first post. Its kinda embarrassing, I'm always on this forum and messing with my car and then my GF pulls up to me and is like "why does your car sound like shit?"

that marbles hitting each other sound is quite annoying.

But I actually have found that doing some high rpm pulls when I get warmed up has alleviated the problem. It comes back after normal driving again after a few days if I don't rev it high.

[DL]

Originally Posted by a31cefiro

Dealership held on to my car for 3 full days and their answer was that it's normal? Doesn't sound like an acceptable answer to me.
What's your guy's opinion on this?

This thread does not apply to your engine. You may have a problem, but this thread does not "fit" your engine as the TSB via BMW has pointed to....


Originally Posted by cimbali View Post

I didnt read this whole thread...but maybe this recent bulletin would be useful/applicable:

September 2009

This Service Information bulletin supersedes SI B11 09 07 dated January 2009.

SUBJECT
Intermittent Hydraulic Valve Adjuster (HVA) Noise

MODEL
All E82, E83, E88, E85, E86, E60, E61, E70, E90, E91, E92 and E93 vehicles with N51, N52 or N52K engines produced approximately up to November 31st 2008; refer to cylinder head casting identification attachment.


SITUATION
An occasional ticking or rattling noise from the camshaft hydraulic valve lifters (HVA) may occur during cold engine starts, due to frequent short-distance driving, or the noise may occur for an extended period of time even though the engine is at operating temperature.

Improved parts were phased into production beginning on 10/1/2008 and fully implemented on November 31st 2008.

CORRECTION
Do not perform the bleeding procedure that was previously provided in SI B11 09 07 which has now been deleted.

All vehicles produced between 10/1/2008 and 11/31/2008 must have each vehicle's cylinder head casting number identified before hydraulic valve lifters (HVA) replacement, due to staggered implementation. Refer to the attachment for the casting number location. Vehicles produced after 11/31/2008 have already been fitted with improved parts. Vehicles produced prior to 10/1/2008 will require the new parts.

Improved Casting Numbers

N51 (B30)
7588277.01

N52 (B30)
7588273.01

N52K (B30)
7588271.01

A cylinder head casting number that does not match will require replacement of the 12 exhaust camshaft hydraulic valve lifters (HVA) as per Repair Instruction RA 11 33 050, Removing and installing/replacing all rocker arms. Only the exhaust camshaft and rocker arms have to be removed in order to replace the hydraulic valve lifters. Do not remove or replace any intake camshaft valve train components.

PARTS INFORMATION
Part Number
Description
Quantity

11 33 7 605 330
Hydraulic Valve Lifter (HVA)
12

Refer to EPC for additional gaskets, seals and bolts, as required by the Repair Instructions.

WARRANTY INFORMATION
Covered under the terms of the BMW New Vehicle Limited Warranty, or the Certified Pre-Owned program.

Please refer to the latest KSD for the applicable Main or Associated labor allowance for the specific model.

Defect Code:
11 33 93 39 00


Labor Operation:
Labor Allowance:
Description:

00 58 248
Refer to KSD
Replace exhaust camshaft hydraulic valve lifters (HVA)

*Main Work

or

00 58 827
Refer to KSD
Replace exhaust camshaft hydraulic valve lifters (HVA)

+ Associated Work

Note: The following explanations will spell out the correct use of the work times.

Main Work:
Use this labor operation number when the only repair performed is the listed warranty repair.


OR


+Associated Work:
Use this labor operation number when other repairs or services are performed along with the listed warranty repair.
Under no circumstances should both labor operation numbers be claimed. Attempts to claim both times will result in an unnecessary delay in claim processing and payment.
I love you man lol JK Where did you get the TSB from. I think you saw a number of my posts about my car trouble. Had the cylinder head replced but i still have that rattaling soun on cold start. So this is a breakthrough for me. Now i can speed ove to the stealership and shove this in there face thanks man. Let me know where you got it from.

[romanonj]

Originally Posted by Nebraska330xi

**Edit, mine sounds exactly the same as yours in your first post. Its kinda embarrassing, I'm always on this forum and messing with my car and then my GF pulls up to me and is like "why does your car sound like shit?"

that marbles hitting each other sound is quite annoying.

But I actually have found that doing some high rpm pulls when I get warmed up has alleviated the problem. It comes back after normal driving again after a few days if I don't rev it high.

Sorry not to hi jack this thread, but my N55 sounds exactly like this.. Marble like sound goes away after it is driven and warmed up.. It has been doing that since brand new. 100k warranty, so if it goes I am covered.


N52 ticking is very distinct, almost like the motor is running with no oil. I had X3 before this and it ticked like a motha when cold, or after oil change.

[a31cefiro]

Originally Posted by romanonj

Sorry not to hi jack this thread, but my N55 sounds exactly like this.. Marble like sound goes away after it is driven and warmed up.. It has been doing that since brand new. 100k warranty, so if it goes I am covered.


N52 ticking is very distinct, almost like the motor is running with no oil. I had X3 before this and it ticked like a motha when cold, or after oil change.

Have you ever had it checked out at the dealer?

[romanonj]

Originally Posted by a31cefiro

Have you ever had it checked out at the dealer?

I would assume that they will say it is normal.. Again, not overly concerned with it, since I have 100k warranty remaining. So if it is an issue, it will come up before 100k the way I drive it, and it will be covered.

I did some research on rough starts and this rattling, and it seems as most N55s have rough start issue, and some have this rattle. My buddy at work has x5 with N55 and no rattle or rough starts. His buddy with same X5/N55 has rough start issues.. Local BMW enthusiast stated that vanos noise on N55 could be mistaken for rattling noise.

[only1harry]

My '11 e92 N55 sounds like shit too. Exactly the same as in the video/audio and worse when it's cold out. Anything under 35 deg. out and it sounds like crap. I also have the distinct waste gate rattle as well that sounds like cow bells. I took it to the Dealer last week and they held on to the car for 2 days, to finally say it sounds normal. I expected that so I asked them to get ready to bring a BMW engineer down because I am coming back and will keep dropping it off until they correct the issue. They said the Service Manager will schedule and appointment with me to listen to the car. What a waste. I drove 30 min. each way to the dealer for nothign and I am sure I will make a few more trips for nothing... It's a shame that a car with a $55,400 sticker sounds like this. Are there any Service Bulletins out there for N55's? I guess I can go look at the NHTSA site to see what I can find. My engine starts sounding pretty "normal" after 15-20 minutes of driving at mid-high RPM's, and it's warmed up well (oil temp is >200). I always warm it up well for at least 10-15min. in the cold before driving away. It just sounds like crap to make you want to hop in it and drive away without warming it up like the manual states. The "ringing" or rattling which I think comes from the Turbo is always there though, except not as loud when the engine is warm. Mine just turned 26k mi. but it's a CPO car that I have only had for 3.5 months.

Harry

[WhiteFury]

Mine makes the exact same noise! I wonder why all the N55's sounds like this?

[Nebraska330xi]

Id really like to see a DIY for this for the N52 exhaust cam lifter TSA above. I'm not sure I would trust myself tearing apart the block at all but if I saw postive feedback about it I would try it.

[PhaseP]

Driving the car hard and for long distances
Helps prevent this as it gets the oil up in the lifters.

If talking about N52, just try not to leave the car idling, or running only at low rpms when it is cold, and then shutdown. In my experience this is the situation that causes the ticking start the next time you start the engine.

It is very replicaple, you can try yourself. In the morning when engine cold, start the car and idle for a few minutes. You will notice the valve train getting noiser after a few minutes. You can even start hearing the ticking if you wait enough. Then shut down the car, wait for half an hour, start the car, most probably it will tick.

If you have updated head (2008 or later I think), this should have been fixed. They probably made the head oil passages better to provide high pressure oil to the lifters even when engine is cold.

When you rev the engine and run it for a while like that, like highway driving, if the lifter was ticking due to air instead of oil in it, since oil pressure is high with high rpm, this clears it up after 10 minutes or so.

If you shut down the engine when it wasn't ticking and warm, next day you start, even if it is cold, you won't have ticking, because the lifters will still be filled with oil from previous run. Only after if you had ran the car low rpm, like idling, when it was cold, it ticks.

This has been my experience 06 325 e90, and very sure of it with my vehicle after 8 years.

[330iE90spt]

Originally Posted by PhaseP

If talking about N52, just try not to leave the car idling, or running only at low rpms when it is cold, and then shutdown. In my experience this is the situation that causes the ticking start the next time you start the engine.

It is very replicaple, you can try yourself. In the morning when engine cold, start the car and idle for a few minutes. You will notice the valve train getting noiser after a few minutes. You can even start hearing the ticking if you wait enough. Then shut down the car, wait for half an hour, start the car, most probably it will tick.

If you have updated head (2008 or later I think), this should have been fixed. They probably made the head oil passages better to provide high pressure oil to the lifters even when engine is cold.

When you rev the engine and run it for a while like that, like highway driving, if the lifter was ticking due to air instead of oil in it, since oil pressure is high with high rpm, this clears it up after 10 minutes or so.

If you shut down the engine when it wasn't ticking and warm, next day you start, even if it is cold, you won't have ticking, because the lifters will still be filled with oil from previous run. Only after if you had ran the car low rpm, like idling, when it was cold, it ticks.

This has been my experience 06 325 e90, and very sure of it with my vehicle after 8 years.

+1

Very well explained! Exactly the same with my experience.

[ccraig13]

Originally Posted by PhaseP

If talking about N52, just try not to leave the car idling, or running only at low rpms when it is cold, and then shutdown. In my experience this is the situation that causes the ticking start the next time you start the engine.

It is very replicaple, you can try yourself. In the morning when engine cold, start the car and idle for a few minutes. You will notice the valve train getting noiser after a few minutes. You can even start hearing the ticking if you wait enough. Then shut down the car, wait for half an hour, start the car, most probably it will tick.

If you have updated head (2008 or later I think), this should have been fixed. They probably made the head oil passages better to provide high pressure oil to the lifters even when engine is cold.

When you rev the engine and run it for a while like that, like highway driving, if the lifter was ticking due to air instead of oil in it, since oil pressure is high with high rpm, this clears it up after 10 minutes or so.

If you shut down the engine when it wasn't ticking and warm, next day you start, even if it is cold, you won't have ticking, because the lifters will still be filled with oil from previous run. Only after if you had ran the car low rpm, like idling, when it was cold, it ticks.

This has been my experience 06 325 e90, and very sure of it with my vehicle after 8 years.

Wow, looking back to it, I never realized until you put it to words, that this is exactly what produced it on mine! I did have the head replaced, but still appreciate the info!

[3V0M]

Originally Posted by PhaseP

If talking about N52, just try not to leave the car idling, or running only at low rpms when it is cold, and then shutdown. In my experience this is the situation that causes the ticking start the next time you start the engine.

It is very replicaple, you can try yourself. In the morning when engine cold, start the car and idle for a few minutes. You will notice the valve train getting noiser after a few minutes. You can even start hearing the ticking if you wait enough. Then shut down the car, wait for half an hour, start the car, most probably it will tick.

If you have updated head (2008 or later I think), this should have been fixed. They probably made the head oil passages better to provide high pressure oil to the lifters even when engine is cold.

When you rev the engine and run it for a while like that, like highway driving, if the lifter was ticking due to air instead of oil in it, since oil pressure is high with high rpm, this clears it up after 10 minutes or so.

If you shut down the engine when it wasn't ticking and warm, next day you start, even if it is cold, you won't have ticking, because the lifters will still be filled with oil from previous run. Only after if you had ran the car low rpm, like idling, when it was cold, it ticks.

This has been my experience 06 325 e90, and very sure of it with my vehicle after 8 years.

+1
Well explained. Your scenario makes sense.

My one office is 1km from my house. Most of the time when I leave home in the mornings or work in the evenings I don't have the ticking. But the next day or when starting the car within an hour of last running (when it was still running cold in the last drive), it will have the ticking.

[330iE90spt]

Originally Posted by Carbon69

+1
Well explained. Your scenario makes sense.

My one office is 1km from my house. Most of the time when I leave home in the mornings or work in the evenings I don't have the ticking. But the next day or when starting the car within an hour of last running (when it was still running cold in the last drive), it will have the ticking.

I live 3 miles from work and I don't get above 40mph from the house to the office. First started noticing ticking in January during those ridiculously cold days/weeks we had. Car never has a chance to warm from between home and work. I did notice ticking goes away after I take her for a nice drive and then the next morning she sounds fine on start up.

[Tim603]

So i have the n52 07' with 138k miles and have obviously heard this as well. My question is how bad is this for your engine and should I expect my engine to fail from this?

[PhaseP]

Originally Posted by Tim603

So i have the n52 07' with 138k miles and have obviously heard this as well. My question is how bad is this for your engine and should I expect my engine to fail from this?

You know you have this lengthy years long thread, all filled with complaints about the noise, but not any case in the thread where a failure is mentioned because of this.

I think early on, on this very long thread there was mention of a failure to valve train, I don't think it wasn't really about this. I think there it was something more than this ticking that happens by cold idling, that was faulty. I may have missed but is there really any documented case where this ticking noise eventually caused failure? I haven't read anything like that so far. Considering these engines are now 8 years old, they should be having failures by now if they were to.

The tick sound happens because there is some gap left between two parts that one pushes the other as cam shaft turns. I don't know how much of a gap there is when this sound happens, and if this would cause how much wear and exactly at which part. If wear happens on the tappet, or the lifter pushrod, that is not much problem. Because the design of these oil filled tappets are to automatically adjust the length so that there is zero clearance (gap). When they work, they make the engine very quiet, that is the purpose of these. When they don't work, they leave this gap (extra clearance) which causes the noise, metal hitting other metal.

And also consider that this ticking is happening for a short time of the actual usage period of the engine. When warmed up fully and driven it goes away.

My uneducated guess is in the very long run, ticking can cause some extra wear that may throw off cam shafts a bit, causing some performance and mileage lost. But that can be considered just aging of the engine.

[Tim603]

Originally Posted by PhaseP

You know you have this lengthy years long thread, all filled with complaints about the noise, but not any case in the thread where a failure is mentioned because of this.

I think early on, on this very long thread there was mention of a failure to valve train, I don't think it wasn't really about this. I think there it was something more than this ticking that happens by cold idling, that was faulty. I may have missed but is there really any documented case where this ticking noise eventually caused failure? I haven't read anything like that so far. Considering these engines are now 8 years old, they should be having failures by now if they were to.

The tick sound happens because there is some gap left between two parts that one pushes the other as cam shaft turns. I don't know how much of a gap there is when this sound happens, and if this would cause how much wear and exactly at which part. If wear happens on the tappet, or the lifter pushrod, that is not much problem. Because the design of these oil filled tappets are to automatically adjust the length so that there is zero clearance (gap). When they work, they make the engine very quiet, that is the purpose of these. When they don't work, they leave this gap (extra clearance) which causes the noise, metal hitting other metal.

And also consider that this ticking is happening for a short time of the actual usage period of the engine. When warmed up fully and driven it goes away.

My uneducated guess is in the very long run, ticking can cause some extra wear that may throw off cam shafts a bit, causing some performance and mileage lost. But that can be considered just aging of the engine.

Great answer man appreciate the help

[850CSi]

Originally Posted by beri486

I am still driving my 325i E90 bought in Aug. 2005 with more than 150K miles on it and have never had this issue. Any other high mile owners around?

I have 103k on mine (not quite high-mileage like you, but also an '06 325i) and I've never really noticed it. Or at least not to the extent where it's bothered me at all. There have been times when I thought I heard some ticking, but never anywhere near as loud as in some of the videos I've seen. Most of my drives are longer than 20 miles, though.

My indy insists that using Pentosin oil helps with this issue. I'm not sure how true that is, but that's what I've been using regardless because it's supposed to be good stuff.


I'm thinking about getting my wife an 06/07 E91 or E61, and this issue really isn't on my radar.

[DUI Elite]

Originally Posted by 850CSi

I have 103k on mine (not quite high-mileage like you, but also an '06 325i) and I've never really noticed it. Or at least not to the extent where it's bothered me at all. There have been times when I thought I heard some ticking, but never anywhere near as loud as in some of the videos I've seen. Most of my drives are longer than 20 miles, though.

My indy insists that using Pentosin oil helps with this issue. I'm not sure how true that is, but that's what I've been using regardless because it's supposed to be good stuff.


I'm thinking about getting my wife an 06/07 E91 or E61, and this issue really isn't on my radar.

That's most likely why. I have never had an issue with ticking until I have a weekend where I'm doing a lot of short 2-3 mile trips running errands.

Once the car has been warm for a few minutes it should not tick at all.

Only happens in the cold / only if I shut the car off before it has warmed up fully

[DL]

Originally Posted by morrisnathan

All solid lifters tick when the engine is cold and get quiet once the engine gets up to temperature, causing the lifters to expand to their normal running size. If solid lifters tick when the engine is hot, you need to adjust them. Adjustments are made when the engine is cold by setting a precise gap between the camshaft and the lifter that will close predictably to specifications when warm.

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Solid lifters, really?

[Camman]

Too lazy to go through 115 pages to see if my question is answered somewhere. Anyways does this problem create any long term damage that could lead to something catastrophic?

I just bought my dads 07 328i off him and it's at about 65k miles and has had this knock since the car was brand new. Haven't heard it in a while since it's been hot out here in Texas but I'm sure it will come back when the weather starts cooling.

[ccraig13]

No, just an annoyance, but the last time I verified that was two years ago. I had the lifters and then finally the block replaced. Mine still ticks. I feel like it got louder with the Mobil 1 0w40 I put in last month (had catrol in before, but not the BMW branded). I may switch back to BMW castrol just to test, but it's really not a big deal to me anymore.