[Hunter399]

....lol nice

[KWA VaTech]

Originally Posted by GhOsT_E90

All this talk about ram intakes and fluid dynamics of such intakes is just getting out of hand. First off a ram air intake isnt going to do shizer for a turbo car at all, the temperature of the air being sucked into the turbo might just a little. But even then once the turbos's are under a load and positive pressure is being built ie. Boost pressure. the air is then heated by the turbos from the exhaust that is spinning these turbos. The point of any open style turbo intake design is to draw the incoming air into the turbo by giving the inducted air a shorter path to follow were as outside air is going to have to follow a longer path through the airbox that is spliting it in to 2 differant directions to feed the turbos.

But take a nice cold day, winter time. Outside air is much colder and the air is more dense, you will see a big differance in performance in what ever style intake system you have. But that air is still going to be heated by the turbos and then cooled again by the intercooler.

So it really isnt going to matter much what intake you use, but an open air intake at the turbo is better for the turbo itself.

Now what makes more sense to dicuss the efficency of the turbos themselves and the intercooler the 335 comes with. I dont know the exact specs on the turbos but i am sure they have certain limitations as to how much psi they can produce. Would need to know the compressor turbine size and A/R ratings. And also the size of the intercooler itself. The intercooler and turbos are the components that are making the hp, and how effecient these two are working, the Vishnu dual intake or any other intake is only trying to make the turbos work easier. And how about the intake pipings after the turbo the charge air piping that goes to the intercooler and then to the intake manifold itself. What path do they take? How much charged air can they hold, would larger piping help then?

And a quick way to help that hot charged air become even colder, why not introduce a alcohol/water injection into the system either before the intercooler or after the intercooler. But then your going to need some tuning to adjust fuel and timing to get it to work right. IE. Snow Performance kit.

Ah shizer i am spent, some of you get it some don't but this is just to simple.

Just for the record, ram air systems are used with turbos all the time in jet applications (you know, that big open front section to the turbine). The point of ram air is to get the air into the intake with as high a pressure as possible. Those mentioning that at high flow this doesn’t help you, need to go back and think about it again. You may be sucking more then is being rammed, that’s true. But, the air could still have a much easier path to the intake with 3/4 of it being thrown there in the first place.

Also worth nothing you will get to a choke point in which an open air starts to make sense like you said but, that's only for the current ram air design. Design the ram air for 400hp air flow requirements and it's a win/win. Turbos will work a little less when the air is precharged.

OK now lets go back to talking about the damn intake

[GhOsT_E90]

Originally Posted by KWA VaTech

Just for the record, ram air systems are used with turbos all the time in jet applications (you know, that big open front section to the turbine). The point of ram air is to get the air into the intake with as high a pressure as possible. Those mentioning that at high flow this doesn’t help you, need to go back and think about it again. You may be sucking more then is being rammed, that’s true. But, the air could still have a much easier path to the intake with 3/4 of it being thrown there in the first place.

Also worth nothing you will get to a choke point in which an open air starts to make sense like you said but, that's only for the current ram air design. Design the ram air for 400hp air flow requirements and it's a win/win. Turbos will work a little less when the air is precharged.

OK now lets go back to talking about the damn intake

Now we are talking JET applications here? Ok throw the coldest ram air into a turbo, it still not under any positive pressure going into the turbo until the turbo builds pressure otherwise the engine is still running under vaccum. And how are you going to precharge the incoming air into the turbo. This can all be done on the charge/positive pressure side of the turbo going into the intercooler then into the intake manifold. If you want to supercool the charged air us like i said a alcohol/water injection into the intake pipiing or even a small shot of NOS. You thinking to complicated here, it really isnt that complicated. Look at any R34 skyline twin turbo thats been modified, every one will have a open air filter thats still under the hood and no "Ram Air" induction.

[KWA VaTech]

Originally Posted by GhOsT_E90

Now we are talking JET applications here? Ok throw the coldest ram air into a turbo, it still not under any positive pressure going into the turbo until the turbo builds pressure otherwise the engine is still running under vaccum. And how are you going to precharge the incoming air into the turbo. This can all be done on the charge/positive pressure side of the turbo going into the intercooler then into the intake manifold. If you want to supercool the charged air us like i said a alcohol/water injection into the intake pipiing or even a small shot of NOS. You thinking to complicated here, it really isnt that complicated. Look at any R34 skyline twin turbo thats been modified, every one will have a open air filter thats still under the hood and no "Ram Air" induction.

I think you will find us to be align on most things. It was stated before your post that ram air has no benefit to turbo applications and a JET engine is a heat engine right? I was merely giving a case contrary to that. Here’s a pic of another one:
http://www.knfilters.com/images/press/lucas4.jpg
Again, a ram air on a modified skyline could take up half the frontal area of the car for the lower speeds cars normally encounter. Ram may not be practical for such high HP applications on daily driver cars. But, since it makes sense for our car at 300hp. I am speculating that it could make sense for 400hp with modifications.

With going with an open air style, I am not sure what kind of pressure you are seeing on the intake side. Could be a little positive or even a vacuum, kind of depends on how the flow is routed threw the engine bay.

BTW, thanks for your service!

[GhOsT_E90]

Originally Posted by KWA VaTech

I think you will find us to be align on most things. It was stated before your post that ram air has no benefit to turbo applications and a JET engine is a heat engine right? I was merely giving a case contrary to that. Here’s a pic of another one:
http://www.knfilters.com/images/press/lucas4.jpg
Again, a ram air on a modified skyline could take up half the frontal area of the car for the lower speeds cars normally encounter. Ram may not be practical for such high HP applications on daily driver cars. But, since it makes sense for our car at 300hp. I am speculating that it could make sense for 400hp with modifications.

With going with an open air style, I am not sure what kind of pressure you are seeing on the intake side. Could be a little positive or even a vacuum, kind of depends on how the flow is routed threw the engine bay.

BTW, thanks for your service!

First you welcome, been the US Army 9 years, and can't wait to get back to my family and new 335.

Heres the thing, ram air for a turbo car in my oppinion isnt really need. Like you said as a daily drive and the speeds we drive it will not benifit any. You have to being going 100mph everywhere you go for it to start to do anything for a turbo car, maybe. Unless you using one of those gemic turbonator electric turbo things thats suppose to super spin the air and create a small amount of positive pressure before the turbo then it might improve air flow just alittle. But otherwise all inducted air before a turbo is drawn in under a vaccum, the turbo does its job creates a positive pressure/boost.

Take for instance a Buick Grand National, in early production they came non-intercooled and made x amount of hp, then they came intercooled and made more x amount of hp. Why did it make more using say the same turbo, same ecu tune but now intercooled. The same temp of air was being brought in, but its the intercooler that makes more hp, because then that charged positive boost pressure is now able to be cooled.

My main point is a open filter intake for the turbo only creates better efficency for the turbo which in turn will let the turbos not work as hard which creates slightly less heat when creating boost. But if you want to improve that hp made even futher upgrade the intercooler which now for these cars are possible but i havent seen any upgrade option for the turbo.

Example: I have a 2000 Civic Si, vortech sc w/liquid to air intercooler or aftercooler its called, the car is hondata tuned semi built engine but installed mods that make it a very well rounded car. The vortech came with a small heat exchanger for the liquid/coolant. Car dyno'd 340whp at 15psi. Recently I bought an AFCO mustang cobra heat exchanger to replace the small vortech one. Just by increasing the amount of coolant that passed through the heat exchanger that passes the liquid through the aftercooler i increase whp to 350whp. Outside air temp were basicly the same around 75 degrees, humity i dont know.

Make sense.

[KWA VaTech]

Originally Posted by GhOsT_E90

First you welcome, been the US Army 9 years, and can't wait to get back to my family and new 335.

Heres the thing, ram air for a turbo car in my oppinion isnt really need. Like you said as a daily drive and the speeds we drive it will not benifit any. You have to being going 100mph everywhere you go for it to start to do anything for a turbo car, maybe. Unless you using one of those gemic turbonator electric turbo things thats suppose to super spin the air and create a small amount of positive pressure before the turbo then it might improve air flow just alittle. But otherwise all inducted air before a turbo is drawn in under a vaccum, the turbo does its job creates a positive pressure/boost.

Take for instance a Buick Grand National, in early production they came non-intercooled and made x amount of hp, then they came intercooled and made more x amount of hp. Why did it make more using say the same turbo, same ecu tune but now intercooled. The same temp of air was being brought in, but its the intercooler that makes more hp, because then that charged positive boost pressure is now able to be cooled.

My main point is a open filter intake for the turbo only creates better efficency for the turbo which in turn will let the turbos not work as hard which creates slightly less heat when creating boost. But if you want to improve that hp made even futher upgrade the intercooler which now for these cars are possible but i havent seen any upgrade option for the turbo.

Example: I have a 2000 Civic Si, vortech sc w/liquid to air intercooler or aftercooler its called, the car is hondata tuned semi built engine but installed mods that make it a very well rounded car. The vortech came with a small heat exchanger for the liquid/coolant. Car dyno'd 340whp at 15psi. Recently I bought an AFCO mustang cobra heat exchanger to replace the small vortech one. Just by increasing the amount of coolant that passed through the heat exchanger that passes the liquid through the aftercooler i increase whp to 350whp. Outside air temp were basicly the same around 75 degrees, humity i dont know.

Make sense.

Again, I am a thermal guy so, have a good deal of working knowledge with heat exchangers ect. We'll just agree to disagree on this point. I am going to want a ram/cold application whenever I can get it for most applications (it is at least not going to hurt you unless you are choking). But, can see applications where going to free air would be better especially with an oversized intercooler. But, then you have other penalties to pay, air flow to the rest of the engine/air drag ect.

Wish you a safe return!

[GhOsT_E90]

Originally Posted by KWA VaTech

Again, I am a thermal guy so, have a good deal of working knowledge with heat exchangers ect. We'll just agree to disagree on this point. I am going to want a ram/cold application whenever I can get it for most applications (it is at least not going to hurt you unless you are choking). But, can see applications where going to free air would be better especially with an oversized intercooler. But, then you have other penalties to pay, air flow to the rest of the engine/air drag ect.

Wish you a safe return!

Ofcourse, the colder out side ambient air being brought into the turbo the better and the less restrictive the flow of that air being brought in is. But were it really matters is how cool that air is after it leaves the turbo and into the intercooler in then into the engine. Air being sent through and intercooler is going to loose lets say momentum(dont know if i spelled that right). But it makes up for it cause its still positive press but now its cooled. And if you want to reduce air drag then change the direction the air is going by improving the intake piping going into the throttle body/intake manifold. Then there is even other variables affecting the air then. intake manifold, manifold runners, intake valves and porting. If this was a NA car, i say go with ram air induction/cold air intakes, but its not. Only real way is data logging a car that has a probe that reads outside air from a ram air setup and one that reads air temps on open filter setup and then messure that air temp before it enters the engines intake manifold. If anyone has this kind of data post it and the discussion would be solved.

[KWA VaTech]

Originally Posted by GhOsT_E90

Ofcourse, the colder out side ambient air being brought into the turbo the better and the less restrictive the flow of that air being brought in is. But were it really matters is how cool that air is after it leaves the turbo and into the intercooler in then into the engine. Air being sent through and intercooler is going to loose lets say momentum(dont know if i spelled that right). But it makes up for it cause its still positive press but now its cooled. And if you want to reduce air drag then change the direction the air is going by improving the intake piping going into the throttle body/intake manifold. Then there is even other variables affecting the air then. intake manifold, manifold runners, intake valves and porting. If this was a NA car, i say go with ram air induction/cold air intakes, but its not. Only real way is data logging a car that has a probe that reads outside air from a ram air setup and one that reads air temps on open filter setup and then messure that air temp before it enters the engines intake manifold. If anyone has this kind of data post it and the discussion would be solved.

Like I said, lets just agree to disagree. This is all basic fluids and thermo to me (my schooling and profession) there are too many unknowns to derive the best solutions for a given application right now. There is no one size fits all to this. Just telling you my theoretical preference under normal driving conditions and tune.

Back on topic, I think Shiv offers a decent solution for those without warranties making around 400HP and for 200 bucks, it's one of the best things out there right now!

[lawdude]

Originally Posted by rmfast

What I want to know is if lawdude is as generous with his cash as he is with his meaningless commentary. Come on lawdude, tell us, did you buy them from Vishnu for $195 or use the link I provided for $98?

I'm very generous with meaningless commentary, same as you.

Not sure about the cash. Don't intend to spend any bucks on an intake, but I spent about $90 on a BMC drop-in filter a few months back, so you tell me how generous I am with my cash.

[Jason]

Quit it with the off-topic arguments. Take the love-fest to PM.

[T i h o r]

So i guess the new question is, when is shiv gonna come out with an intercooler!? lol

[KWA VaTech]

Originally Posted by T i h o r

So i guess the new question is, when is shiv gonna come out with an intercooler!? lol

um, I don't think you want that. Intake is a big step, IC on the other hand, he might find one that works well and sell it under his name but, designing one is another story!

[T i h o r]

Originally Posted by KWA VaTech

um, I don't think you want that. Intake is a big step, IC on the other hand, he might find one that works well and sell it under his name but, designing one is another story!

I guess you're right.


Helix IC FTW!

[Vudoo4u2]

As far as leased cars go, I used to have an RSX-S and had an intake on that, dealer never seemed to care in the least....I figure it should be the same on this car?

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by T i h o r

So i guess the new question is, when is shiv gonna come out with an intercooler!? lol

We've been tossing around that idea for a while.

BTW, we videotaped an complete intake installation (cowl removal, airbox out, filters in and cowl back on) a couple days ago. Under 5 min!

Shiv

[e90AW335i]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

BTW, we videotaped an complete intake installation (cowl removal, airbox out, filters in and cowl back on) a couple days ago. Under 5 min!

Show off....

[Bullitt 2496]

Shiv - I think it would be cool if you offered the filters in Blue!!!

[e90AW335i]

Originally Posted by Vudoo4u2

As far as leased cars go, I used to have an RSX-S and had an intake on that, dealer never seemed to care in the least....I figure it should be the same on this car?

Nope, your wrong. BMW has decided to void as many warranties as they can because of mods. Just cover your ass and take everything out before going to the dealer....

[scottp999]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

We've been tossing around that idea for a while.

BTW, we videotaped an complete intake installation (cowl removal, airbox out, filters in and cowl back on) a couple days ago. Under 5 min!

Shiv

Please post vid to your site.

Which way are you leaning on the IC? If you did it would it be completely bolt-on? no cutting?

IC is at the top of my wanted mod list.

[dr.roro]

^You already have several options for a FMIC upgrade...?

[AWD Addict]

Finally a properly priced, effective intake for this car.

Nice work shiv.

[AWD Addict]

I'm utterly shocked Ocha didn't appear in this thread. I've had the discussion about CAI / Short RAM / heat soak on turbo applications numerous times, and now that Shiv is speaking properly to the subject, he's MIA?!

WTF!? Ocha, get in here and let's battle.