[InCityPhoto]

Originally Posted by Clap135

But the stock sensor is awesome, why run race gas or meth, the stock ecu will just lower timing to where it should be and the knock sensor will react in time to save the car...

Because we all have come to the conclusion that the OEM sensors have a limit, as with anything, there are limits.

Originally Posted by Clap135

i added to my past. You once again have no proof that adding the frequecny and duration of these knock event arnt more harmful. Which car will last longer, the one in 105 degree weather at 1k above sealevel or the one in 50 degree weather at sealevel. So in other words, the one that constantly detects knock, or the one that almost never detects knock.

I don't need to prove to you that its working, there are cars driving around with NO problems, that proof enough for me, and the thousand of others that are very happy with there BMS products.

If you wish to prove otherwise, you will have to provide data.

Originally Posted by Clap135

Can you show me a stock car running a jb4 at 15psi? Cause it will make the timing drop in 4th look like nothing compared to the rollercoaster timing curve on the jb4

As BMS say's you should not be running 15psi stock, How about you go back to stock and run 15psi with your cobb and post data.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by InCityPhoto

This is so off topic, Yes they decreased timing, That does not say that doing it the other way is wrong or "damaging" the N54.

Yes it does. What BMW did is the same thing that would be done by ANY OTHER TUNER IN THE INDUSTRY. Porsche, Mercedes, GM, Mazda, Toyota, Ford, etc,. All the same. When you increase engine load, you reduced timing advance target. You don't let timing reactively drop through knock control feedback. That is not the safe approach.

If you claim otherwise, you either have something to gain by misinforming people. Or you just like to argue. I don't care either way. But these are the facts and I cannot change them.

[Overboost]

Lol @ Mike and InCityPhoto... preknock (don't think that's even a word) and knock frequencies not being knock? Come on guys.

Knocking (also called knock, detonation, spark knock, pinging or pinking) in spark-ignition internal combustion engines occurs when combustion of the air/fuel mixture in the cylinder starts off correctly in response to ignition by the spark plug, but one or more pockets of air/fuel mixture explode outside the envelope of the normal combustion front.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by InCityPhoto

Because we all have come to the conclusion that the OEM sensors have a limit, as with anything, there are limits.





I don't need to prove to you that its working, there are cars driving around with NO problems, that proof enough for me, and the thousand of others that are very happy with there BMS products.

If you wish to prove otherwise, you will have to provide data.






As BMS say's you should not be running 15psi stock, How about you go back to stock and run 15psi with your cobb and post data.

Really cause map 2 on the jb4 is 14.5psi, and people run it.

[Black Gold]

Originally Posted by InCityPhoto

This is so off topic, Yes they decreased timing, That does not say that doing it the other way is wrong or "damaging" the N54.

You guys are going around in circles.

What "other way"? U mean the way the 335i runs? If that is the "best" method, then why would they have changed the timing limits for the is?

On one hand you claim that the BMW method for monitoring timig/knock is ideal in the 335i, now you say the 335is tune (from BMW as well) isn't necessarily better than the 335i model.

Now who is going in circles?

Again, why would they change the timing limits if they didn't think it was beneficial. It is relevent because the is runs increased boost with lower timing limits, just like the Cobb/giac/procede tune does.

If you can't see the relationship between the two and how it's a relevent comparison, then you canny be helped.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by Clap135

Terry new maps, looks like he circeled the timing drop outs, that didnt go away on a car running just 12-13psi fully bolted. Why would he circle them and base his autotuning of them if they arnt knock or dangerous?

You forgot the context of that chart.

Did a few 3rd and 4th gear runs tonight to monitor the 2/18 map 5 logic. It's super cold tonight, around 40 degrees ambient, and the factory boost target is around 7psi down to 4psi at redline. After a few runs map 5 was targeting 12.6psi peak and still dropping. Got to love our piss poor 91 octane. After a few more runs I am guessing it will stabilize at 12.0 psi as it did with 2/2 but we'll see. Then I'll add some race gas to get up to 93 octane and repeat this testing with 2/18.

Also you forgot to add this chart surprisingly!

Here's a customer log on higher grade fuel adapting up.

The idea is to show two examples of map5 working in opposite directions.

[InCityPhoto]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Yes it does. What BMW did is the same thing that would be done by ANY OTHER TUNER IN THE INDUSTRY. Porsche, Mercedes, GM, Mazda, Toyota, Ford, etc,. All the same. When you increase engine load, you reduced timing advance target. You don't let timing reactively drop through knock control feedback. That is not the safe approach.

If you claim otherwise, you either have something to gain by misinforming people. Or you just like to argue. I don't care either way. But these are the facts and I cannot change them.

Then please tell me why the JB system is working in so many cars without problem?

I have nothing to gain from this, other then to stop these continued ridiculous post from Laloosh/Clap, spamming a forum I enjoy reading.

Originally Posted by KennyPowers

What "other way"? U mean the way the 335i runs? If that is the "best" method, then why would they have changed the timing limits for the is?

On one hand you claim that the BMW method for monitoring timig/knock is ideal in the 335i, now you say the 335is tune (from BMW as well) isn't necessarily better than the 335i model.

Now who is going in circles?

Again, why would they change the timing limits if they didn't think it was beneficial. It is relevent because the is runs increased boost with lower timing limits, just like the Cobb/giac/procede tune does.

If you can't see the relationship between the two and how it's a relevent comparison, then you canny be helped.

It is not relevant because we are talking about how the JB works in the 335I.

I never said that the way the BMS system works is "ideal". I am not sure were you read that.

I always have and still do agree there are multiple ways of doing something, that in the end produce the same result.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

You forgot the context of that chart.



Also you forgot to add this chart surprisingly!



The idea is to show two examples of map5 working in opposite directions.

What? I showed a log that terry showed. fully bolted car in cold conditions can't even stop dropping ignition and its already at 12.x psi

The other guy, yea put higher octane in the the ignition will climb untill it knocks or reaches the preset timing curve. Whats your point? Eventually that car will simply knock.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by InCityPhoto

Then please tell me why the JB system is working in so many cars without problem?

Because it's not. I have a pretty good grasp on the problems people have with JB tunes. As does Cobb I'm sure. From what i've seen, there are very few long term JB users. They usually purchase the tune because of the attractive price. But once they they learn more about what it really does (or doesn't do), they jump ship and move to something that better suits their needs.

It's no surprise that just about all those arguing for proper timing control in this thread are former JB users. JPslick, Ilma, Clap135, themyst, etc,. The only axe they have to grind is seeing others fall for the same nonsense they fell for earlier on.

shiv

[InCityPhoto]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Because it's not. I have a pretty good grasp on the problems people have with JB tunes. As does Cobb I'm sure. From what i've seen, there are very few long term JB users. They usually purchase the tune because of the attractive price. But once they they learn more about what it really does (or doesn't do), they jump ship and move to something that better suits their needs.

It's no surprise that just about all those arguing for proper timing control in this thread are former JB users. JPslick, Ilma, Clap135, themyst, etc,. The only axe they have to grind is seeing others fall for the same nonsense they fell for earlier on.

shiv

Or possibly after many years being happy with the product and not having any troubles, they want to move onto something different that can go beyond the OEM sensors?

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by InCityPhoto

Or possibly after many years being happy with the product and not having any troubles, they want to move onto something different that can go beyond the OEM sensors?

Where the proof?

[Overboost]

I don't get the argument... Simple physics will tell you that if the car knocks because the ignition timing advance is to great at any point that the resulting force being transmitted through the internal assembly (rods, bearings, driveshaft) caused by the combustion flame font hitting the piston on its upward stroke before reaching TDC will be greater than if it hit at TDC or there after. This increased force or load on the system obviously will accelerate the wear on the engine internals. So regardless of what is being argued, it is better to be proactive with the timing curve (avoid any level of knock) than to be reactive since the damage is cumulative.

[InCityPhoto]

Originally Posted by Clap135

Where the proof?

Don't need proof, it wasn't a statement which is why I started the sentence with possibly.

Originally Posted by Overboost

I don't get the argument... Simple physics will tell you that if the car knocks because the ignition timing advance is to great at any point that the resulting force being transmitted through the internal assembly (rods, bearings, driveshaft) caused by the combustion flame font hitting the piston on its upward stroke before reaching TDC will be greater than if it hit at TDC or there after. This increased force or load on the system obviously will accelerate the wear on the engine internals. So regardless of what is being argued, it is better to be proactive with the timing curve (avoid any level of knock) than to be reactive since the damage is cumulative.

Thats the argument, if the OEM sensors do a good enough job to control this, there is no need to continually bash Mike/Terry and BMS products.

There are other methods that are stated daily on this forum, You can choose what you want to buy. They both work.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by InCityPhoto

Don't need proof, it wasn't a statement which is why I started the sentence with possibly.

Then its a false statement.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by InCityPhoto

Don't need proof, it wasn't a statement which is why I started the sentence with possibly.





Thats the argument, if the OEM sensors do a good enough job to control this, there is no need to continually bash Mike/Terry and BMS products.

There are other way's that is stated daily, You can choose what you want to buy. They both work.

Wheres the proof the oem sensor does a good enough job?

[InCityPhoto]

Originally Posted by Clap135

Then its a false statement.

It wasn't a statement.

Originally Posted by Clap135

Wheres the proof the oem sensor does a good enough job?

All the cars driving around with happy customers?

Were is your data supporting that it does not do an adequate job?

[Overboost]

I think what Mike and InCityPhoto are trying to say is that the level knock caused by the JB timing curves is not enough to grenade the motor at any one instant but they fail to see that science alone can explain that the effects are still detrimental.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by InCityPhoto

It wasn't a statement.






All the cars driving around with happy customers?

Were is your data supporting that it does not do an adequate job?

Thats not data son, those are experssions/opinions of people who don't do this for a living.

The data that it does not do an adequate job is listed in every engine book known to man kind.

[InCityPhoto]

Originally Posted by Overboost

I think what Mike and InCityPhoto are trying to say is that the level knock caused by the JB timing curves is not enough to grenade the motor at any one instant but they fail to see that science alone can explain that the effects are still detrimental.

I have yet to see how detrimental it is..

Originally Posted by Clap135

Thats not data son, those are experssions/opinions of people who don't do this for a living.

The data that it does not do an adequate job is listed in every engine book known to man kind.

Those are verified persons that the JB4 system does what it is designed to do...

I can not understand you second posting, please retype it in a way thats legible.

What I think you are saying is that every engine made by man kind is the same.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by InCityPhoto

I have yet to see how detrimental it is..

I have yet to see how not detrmental it is....

[vasillalov]

Can I point something out here:

Ignition Correction does not necessarily have to occur as a result of the output of the knock sensors. IAT, Air Density, boost, O2 sensor outputs and a heck of a lot of other sensor inputs can be used to drive proper ignition.

The knock sensor is simply the "sledge hammer" so to say. In other words, if the knock sensor says your engine is knocking then the engine is entering self destruct mode. Proper knock detection is necessary to prevent short term immediate engine destruction. Proper ignition timing is necessary for engine longevity.

Also, timing retard, does not necessarily means that there is an actual knock. But if there is a knock, there is always a timing retard.

Franky, I am quite happy that BMW ECU and COBB/GIAC flashes pull timing in a very hot day when conditions are not favorable for max power. I'd rather loose 20-40 hp at peak and keep my engine alive.

[InCityPhoto]

Originally Posted by Clap135

I have yet to see how not detrmental it is....

Then I guess it works great! no bad, no good, just works