[Eau_Rouge111]

Originally Posted by E90 LCI

My M sport 335i has it on the front door sills and one on the steering wheels.. so 3 lol

Ha nice. My friend' M235i has 16! If you count every thing from floor mats to to dash to exterior panels to wheels . But the E series cars didn't come with allot of M badges to begin with...i was more so when BMW moved to the F body cars...Can't blame BMW...it sells cars.

[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by Eau_Rouge111

Ha nice. My friend' M235i has 16! If you count every thing from floor mats to to dash to exterior panels to wheels . But the E series cars didn't come with allot of M badges to begin with...i was more so when BMW moved to the F body cars...Can't blame BMW...it sells cars.

Badges and stickers also give street cred...yo! Especially at the cars and coffee events. You know each badge and sticker is good for 10 to 15 HP.

[Eau_Rouge111]

Originally Posted by zx10guy

Badges and stickers also give street cred...yo! Especially at the cars and coffee events. You know each badge and sticker is good for 10 to 15 HP.

Ha! Good one!!

[Ric in RVA]

Originally Posted by MightyMouseTech

DCT does have an inherent flaw. If the transmission decides to downshift two gears, the trans must engage the clutch on that shaft, change the gear, then reengage the same clutch. There will be a delay while that happens. Every DCT car I have driven does this, there is no way around it, it is like that by design. An automatic can smoothly go from pretty much any gear to any gear, just like a manual.

And the ZF can skip gears and go straight to the gear it needs.

I love my manual 1 but if they made a ZF N55 I'd be sorely tempted.

Drove a fully loaded DINAN M235i with a zf and hoo boy that was fast as hell.... got the sales guy in trouble for doing donuts with it....but he did tell me to do so....

[SteveW928]

Originally Posted by mundo74

like i said. 10 speed is for 18 wheelers and the fuel savings is a paper excercise. with so many gears its like you are driving a CVT.

Yes, even with less gears on a car like my Jetta TDI, that's still the case. In fact one of the firmware updates in the last couple of years made it considerably worse (slower, less decisive) than when we bought it (probably to cover up the mpg reducing tweaking they were also doing). I'm sure it could be tuned the other way as well.... but if you get too many, it's going to slow it down some.

Originally Posted by Esteban

I would actually prefer a manual but because of a permanent injury to my left ankle I can no longer work a clutch. ... Very happy with mine and think that BMW and other car makers should offer us enthusiasts the transmission of our choice.

That's the key here... the choice! Nothing against having one available, or even the big-seller. I'd have gone for a manual Jetta TDI too, but being the family car, the DSG was a compromise. *IF* it had a paddle shifter, I'd probably like it more than I do, too.

Originally Posted by MightyMouseTech

DCT does have an inherent flaw. If the transmission decides to downshift two gears, the trans must engage the clutch on that shaft, change the gear, then reengage the same clutch. There will be a delay while that happens.

You can step down a couple of gears really quickly sequentially though. I've never timed it, but I think it would be hard to do it more quickly manually. It's more about the mind/car/body being in sync... with enough manual-trans experience, you just know where it needs to be. I've not felt that way at all with the DSG on the Jetta. As I said above, maybe with paddle shifters, as I wouldn't have to reach for the stick at all then, and my brain might map to the paddles better than the backwards (in my mind), forward to up-shift, pull back to down-shift (that needs to be configurable).

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by Bosozoku

"Car and Passenger" - self-driving car zine

"Car and Users" - self-driving on-demand ride-sharing car zine

BMW is ready to advertise in both !

[IS3andME]

Originally Posted by AlterZgo

The comments about manuals not being strong enough to handle the high HP and torque seems to be a crock of crap. Even back in the import tuner days, a turbocharged Civic putting out 500 hp and 400+ ft/lbs of torque did not blow up manual transmissions which were designed to only handle 190 hp and 150 ft/lbs of torque.

I have rarely, if ever, heard of manual transmissions blowing up due to wear and tear or too much HP on fixed up cars running 2-3x or more stock hp and torque. What we usually see are worn out clutches and money shifts blowing them up. That's it. OTOH, I see many many many complaints, stories, etc. about old school automatics not being able to handle the HP, dodgy "upgrades" sold by Level 10 and their ilk that provide minimal if any gains in power handling, or no upgrades at all for standard automatics to handle more power.

How the heck does Ford and Chevrolet build manual equipped GT500s and Z06s if "450 hp and 600Nm (442 lb/ft) of torque was more or less the limit of manual-gearbox durability?" These cars make about 200 more hp and torque and seem to have reliable manuals.

The Ford Mustang GT500, Viper, older C6 vettes, and a few other high performance American cars use the Tremec TR-6060 which has a torque rating of 600 pound feet. The C7 Z06 apparently used a version of the Tremec TR-6070

In the article it says that apparently BMW/M Division had looked at American manuals and said that they were too heavy and they didn't like the shift quality.

[SteveW928]

Originally Posted by IS3andME

In the article it says that apparently BMW/M Division had looked at American manuals and said that they were too heavy and they didn't like the shift quality.

Just watch the videos someone posted several pages back with the Corvette on the track, or the guy driving that tuned Cadillac. The problem is obvious. (As much as I complain about my Jetta's DSG, it's WAY better than those!)

[NoImDirtyDan]

For those comparing PDK and "super car" DCT to BMW DCT - those are two different brackets. The cost of a high end Porsche (compared to a high end BMW) can double and thats the bottom of the food chain if you're going to throw Ferrari, Bugatti, and Pagani into the equation.

BMW generally competes with MBZ Audi and Lexus. (With a few exceptions) So production cost/profits/pricing needs to remain within its competition. MOST people who buy these cars are not people like us who pay attention to the details of how a car drives, takes turns, shifts ect. We are such an insignificant percentage of people compared to everyone who owns a BMW.

When the more general population goes into the dealership what's going to be more appealing, a DCT that is designed for racing or a top of the line 8-speed that provides good gas mileage and a smooth drive? The average person would take the smooth gas saver. We all know that car won't be going over 75MPH in the life time that it's owned.

It's unfortunate to us because we appreciate(d) what ///M's are and what they used to be. But we are irrelevant to the equation in terms of their profits and business model.

I will always have a soft spot for BMW regardless of where they go simply because of my past experiences. Nothing lasts forever!
In the end business is business.

[Jarrod]

I think the DCT in my 335is is brilliant. It's the primary reason I chose it over a 335i in fact. First time I ever drove one I immediately "got it".

Is it perfect? Nope, it feels a bit unsure of itself in traffic. But after several months of driving it I feel I've more or less mastered getting around its quirks. And it more than makes up for those quirks when you've got open road in front of you. It is quite literally a kick in the pants. I love it. I don't miss the manual. I don't miss (?) an 8-speed econo-TC. I just enjoy it for what it is - a fantastic sport transmission that really shines above 3500 RPM. If you drive it where it likes to live, it will reward you. If you don't, welp, then you should have bought the econo-TC.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

And in congrast... In certain markets in Europe, for the M2.. the 6 speed manual is actually a 3-6k euro option over the DCT.

Proof of said claim?

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by JNoSol

F85/86 are ZF Auto, you cannot tell it's not DCT. Corvette Z06 and Alfa Romeo Quadrifoglio are also ZF Auto. With proper software l, faster solenoids, and higher fluid pressure, the auto could easily mimic the DCT. It boils down to cost and reliability.

No electronic can overcome the increased inertia of a planetary auto.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by Hymiet

Looks like Porsche is working with ZF on a 2 and 4 Wheel Drive DCT.

http://www.caradvice.com.au/527515/m...ght-speed-dct/

Is BMW not able to work with them on the same? Or is it possible that the new M5 ZF Box could be related to the ones in this article?

Transmissions used in 911 and Caymans are transaxles and cannot be used in FR layout.

[SteveW928]

Originally Posted by ZeroSix

So production cost/profits/pricing needs to remain within its competition.

Fair point.

Originally Posted by ZeroSix

MOST people who buy these cars are not people like us who pay attention to the details of how a car drives, takes turns, shifts ect. We are such an insignificant percentage of people compared to everyone who owns a BMW.

Hmm, but then what's the point of BMW? Just get a Honda? Branding has to be a *bit* more than just a slogan.

Originally Posted by ZeroSix

It's unfortunate to us because we appreciate(d) what ///M's are and what they used to be. But we are irrelevant to the equation in terms of their profits and business model.

I will always have a soft spot for BMW regardless of where they go simply because of my past experiences. Nothing lasts forever!
In the end business is business.

I disagree here. I admit, I don't know car companies well, aside from being a long-time car enthusiast.

However, I do know Apple didn't get to be the most valuable company on the planet with a 'business is business' attitude. The 'new' Apple does seem to be taking an approach somewhat like you're describing here about BMW. If they don't course correct, they won't be the most valuable company for long. I'd predict the same for BMW if that's really their new 'business' strategy.

This seems to be a pretty close parallel with Apple and the creative/pro market debacle. Same argument there... that Apple's Pro users are a teeny-tiny percentage of the whole. Not really worth focusing on (or producing specific products for). But, that's bean-counter thinking. They are much more important to the brand than the pie-chart indicates.

My hunch is that it would be the same for BMW. Without the racing; without the enthusiasts, they become just another car company. And, they are too expensive to be just another car company. All those people buying them because of the badge, are vicariously buying into the image the enthusiasts built.

[Powerslide]

Originally Posted by zx10guy

I did clarify what car I had in my earlier posts had you bothered to read them. And my profile states I have a 2013 135i.

But I may try out a M car with a DCT to see how much better it is. As I said before, it's a crying shame it's clear BMW just threw something together for the 135i and didn't put any effort into it.

Right - you mentioned that you have a 1 series - but then all of your comments were how BMW's DCT was bad from a global perspective (which is contrary to the vast majority of DCT owners who drive M3/M4's). I chimed in to show that your experience is contrary to most M3/M4 owners (a distinction which your posts did not mention).

[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by Powerslide

Right - you mentioned that you have a 1 series - but then all of your comments were how BMW's DCT was bad from a global perspective (which is contrary to the vast majority of DCT owners who drive M3/M4's). I chimed in to show that your experience is contrary to most M3/M4 owners (a distinction which your posts did not mention).

I can only speak of what I know first hand which is my DCT which is the DCT installed in the 1 series. One would be able to figure out when I make my statements it's about that circumstance. So as far as I'm concerned if BMW is going to offer a technology which can't perform even the basics properly, then I don't care if it goes away. It's absolutely $hitty for them to half ass an implementation of a technology it obviously looks like they got right with the M cars. It's some sort of stupid sick joke that they are dangling a carrot in front of us with the same technology transmission saying in essence, if you want it to work 100% of the time, pay the M tax. What kind of stupid impression is that going to make on customers? You're not worthy to get hardware that works 100% of the time because you didn't buy an M car?

So I don't understand you trying to pick a fight here. You're the only one that doesn't seem to get the distinction of where my comments are coming from. And I guess the thought didn't occur to you that if non M cars get DCT transmissions it would be helping out your cause of keeping it a viable solution as there would be more volume. You would want to see BMW provide a proper implementation of the same technology with non M cars so more people would want one. But it appears you're too hung up on your elitist status of being a M owner to see this.

[Jarrod]

Originally Posted by zx10guy

And I guess the thought didn't occur to you that if non M cars get DCT transmissions it would be helping out your cause of keeping it a viable solution as there would be more volume. You would want to see BMW provide a proper implementation of the same technology with non M cars so more people would want one. But it appears you're too hung up on your elitist status of being a M owner to see this.

Admittedly I didn't read the whole thread yet, but has it occurred to anybody that it might be tougher to "get it right" on the N54 platform due to the grunt it has down low vs. the S65? Heck, I have trouble getting the 6MT to shift smoothly from 1st to 2nd with the massive torque bomb trying to go off under my left foot. It's pretty unforgiving and I'm not sure a computer is going to do much better?

[AntDX316]

I really think what BMW meant about automatics being smarter is that when you brake the car will automatically put you in the gear you would want to be in if you were to do it by yourself and probably better. Say you click down gears in DCT you can be slightly off if you aren't ultra professional. You might come into a corner too slow or too fast then the gear that you always were in was wrong. It's kind of like when you turn TC off and you think you can do better than with it on but when you go into 1st gear super tight corners like Monza's first corner or Spa's last corners that sometimes require first gear to go ultra fast, 100% the computer would be more consistent giving you better times than if you were to do it yourself because if done right you can drop into 1st gear at full WOT and get the fastest acceleration corner exit than adjusting those milliseconds counter steering and such trying not to spin out. Miss the wrong throttle and steering position can put you in a spin out, the wall, or another vehicle. The limitation for superior intervention over what the best person could do is computing power and correct data. I could be wrong with anything I've said but I doubt. The idea would be to race against doing it easy and doing it wrong then see what results happen. The amount of effort and driver control doesn't really win races anymore. If you want to do it wrong and lose, say you get MT or DCT and lose against a future superior automatic, do not complain. If you read and comprehended what I said and you chose to do it wrong, competitive wise vs driver experience smoking all the Camry's who aren't even track grade, then it's your own fault if you become butthurt when losing.

And I think the reason why you guys are having DCT issues is because BMW thinks that if you buy DCT you know how to operate the vehicle for how it wants like race car professionals do. If you do not know how to DCT shift because you drive it like an automatic then again it's your own faults for getting something that you don't have time to understand how to work it properly.

[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by Jarrod

Admittedly I didn't read the whole thread yet, but has it occurred to anybody that it might be tougher to "get it right" on the N54 platform due to the grunt it has down low vs. the S65? Heck, I have trouble getting the 6MT to shift smoothly from 1st to 2nd with the massive torque bomb trying to go off under my left foot. It's pretty unforgiving and I'm not sure a computer is going to do much better?

The DCT wasn't offered in the 1 series with the N54. Only the N55. The problems I'm complaining about are not due to torque modulation, smoothness in delivering the power. For most of us with this problem, it's a problem of nothing. When you give gas and expect the car to go, but in return the car either just creeps along or doesn't move at all, you'll understand why I'm so vocal about my disdain for how BMW didn't provide an acceptable product. Again, there's nothing scarier than merging into an opening in traffic, the car moves but creeps along, then you realize the gap you had from that oncoming car in the lane you're merging into is gone, and you're staring at a face full of car grill.

And I'm not even talking about the situation when you give gas, and the car just sits there and doesn't move at all for a solid 2 to 3 seconds or the situation when the idle is bouncing and during the downshift from 2 to 1 the trans engages with the 1st gear downshift causing the car to leap forward even though your foot is on the brakes.

I think if anyone ever experiences any of these situations, you'd be as salty as I am now.

[Powerslide]

Originally Posted by zx10guy

I can only speak of what I know first hand which is my DCT which is the DCT installed in the 1 series. One would be able to figure out when I make my statements it's about that circumstance. So as far as I'm concerned if BMW is going to offer a technology which can't perform even the basics properly, then I don't care if it goes away. It's absolutely $hitty for them to half ass an implementation of a technology it obviously looks like they got right with the M cars. It's some sort of stupid sick joke that they are dangling a carrot in front of us with the same technology transmission saying in essence, if you want it to work 100% of the time, pay the M tax. What kind of stupid impression is that going to make on customers? You're not worthy to get hardware that works 100% of the time because you didn't buy an M car?

So I don't understand you trying to pick a fight here. You're the only one that doesn't seem to get the distinction of where my comments are coming from. And I guess the thought didn't occur to you that if non M cars get DCT transmissions it would be helping out your cause of keeping it a viable solution as there would be more volume. You would want to see BMW provide a proper implementation of the same technology with non M cars so more people would want one. But it appears you're too hung up on your elitist status of being a M owner to see this.

Like I said - now that you've explained it your comments make sense - all that was necessary was you confirming that you meant your comments as limited to your particular model/experience rather than the broad-sweeping statements you made before. People make broad sweeping generalizations all the time even though their own experience is limited to a very small subset of those generalizations. Therefore, the mere fact you mentioned that you have a 135i neither ruled in nor ruled out whether your original intention was global to all BMW DCT applications on the broad end of the spectrum - or alternatively- to just your own narrow experience (or the somewhat broader experience of 135i owners).

I'll say it again to be clear - not trying to pick a fight - but just trying to explain the source of the question of how broadly you intended to say how poor of a job BMW did on the DCT. However - your last few posts have now answered that question, so thanks for the clarification and better luck on your next transmission (sincerely - no sarcasm intended).

[AntDX316]

Originally Posted by JRobUSC

My understanding of the ZF transmission is it's modular, meaning it can accept a torque converter, a wet clutch, or even an electric motor. And it's compatible with AWD, something BMW's current M-DCT is not. I don't know what the limitations are in terms of electric motor power but I personally think the possibilities with that transmission are pretty exciting. Imagine the upcoming 600+hp 4.0L twin turbo V8 coupled with a 200hp electric motor and xDrive -- that would make for a pretty damn compelling drivetrain in a future M.

Doesn't Porsche and McLaren already do this with their $2M supercars?

[JNoSol]

Originally Posted by YasM4

Porsche PDK is the best (from experience)

Will have to agree. PDK is simply perfect and what other DCT strive to be.