[scottp999]

Originally Posted by Sniz

is it me or did MaxBoost's problems happen back in the v1 or v2 days? How is that what we are dealing with now?

This discussion is better than anything on cable. I'm calculating how much it will cost to run the car on VP MS109 or Sunoco 260 GT Plus year round.

[Sniz]

Originally Posted by scottp999

This discussion is better than anything on cable. I'm calculating how much it will cost to run the car on VP MS109 or Sunoco 260 GT Plus year round.

heh, your fine w your setup man. I'm sure your car is happy as clam. Actually Adam is now poking around at the idea of installing an Aquamist system on his M5.

[WOPALX]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

Monitoring timing advance would have caught that but it was not done and the system to do that automatically is not yet in place on the JB3 side.

Mike

You sell Meth kits etc and enable the product to 'integrate' with the kit.

Now your saying the monitoring system for safe use of the Meth kit does not exist in your product.

2 engines have blown themselves while running your product as promoted , would that not be reason enough to RECALL the faulty product or advise customers of the POTENTIAL damage the use could cause?

Sorry but from an ETHICS perspective I think that is really poor form and it surprises me that with the litigious nature of the US market that JB3 retailers have not been SUED for selling a product that damages their cars when used AS promoted.


People bag out Vishnu for a variety of reasons, sometimes for valid reasons, however at least they test their product and don't promote customers making changes to hardware that could result in expensive engine repairs.

[onesuperboi]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

LOL that wasn't what MaxBoost had to say about it, and with VK this was prior to the JB3 being out. The failure happened with your system on during WOT. The real danger here is the methanol causing the ECU to ramp up to max advance which both tunes allow. Without a proper failsafe in place it's easy to get major knock. It's also entirely possible there was just not enough meth being injected to to support the boost levels. Monitoring timing advance would have caught that but it was not done and the system to do that automatically is not yet in place on the JB3 side.

Mike

So, the JB3 doesn't monitor ignition timing at all? =\

I knew that it couldn't do any CPS offset, but that comes as a surprise to me.

And, to do a simple recap for the current tunes on the market:
Procede RevII= 0 engine failures
JB3= 2 engine failures

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by WOPALX

You sell Meth kits etc and enable the product to 'integrate' with the kit.

Now your saying the monitoring system for safe use of the Meth kit does not exist in your product.

2 engines have blown themselves while running your product as promoted , would that not be reason enough to RECALL the faulty product or advise customers of the POTENTIAL damage the use could cause?

Sorry but from an ETHICS perspective I think that is really poor form and it surprises me that with the litigious nature of the US market that JB3 retailers have not been SUED for selling a product that damages their cars when used AS promoted.


People bag out Vishnu for a variety of reasons, sometimes for valid reasons, however at least they test their product and don't promote customers making changes to hardware that could result in expensive engine repairs.

Maybe you didn't bother to read the first post of this thread, but it was from BMS discussing the dangerous of said power levels and modifications.... You want to run 18-19psi on pump gas? You need to manage the details and accept the consequences along with the rewards.

How the various products are used are entirely up to the customer. If he wants to disable his meth safety (or not buy one), disable his hardware safety, tune himself to 18-19psi, not monitor timing, etc, that is entirely on him. When you start making changes to things especially to push the boundaries you take that responsibility upon yourself to know what you're doing and manage the details. Once you change something and push the gas pedal down you accept the consequences of your actions. The owner had those tools available to him (BT to monitor timing, hardware safety, meth hardwire safety, etc) but for whatever reason in this case didn't put it all together. And maybe he did everything right and the motor just can't take those power levels for long.

Mike

[Mark313]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

Monitoring timing advance would have caught that but it was not done and the system to do that automatically is not yet in place on the JB3 side.

Mike

So because the JB3 can't do it, why do you slander the procede by saying that it doesn't do it either? Just because shiv protects his tune so you can't copy it doesn't mean it doesn't do it. He's just protecting his tune from hacks like you so you can't reverse engineer it. I might be crazy but I'm starting to think you looked at those procede logs running 18+ psi and no ignition correction not knowing shiv hid it in the logs so because you thought the procede doing it was safe, you decided to do it and blew up an engine.

[onesuperboi]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

Maybe you didn't bother to read the first post of this thread, but it was from BMS discussing the dangerous of said power levels and modifications.... You want to run 18-19psi on pump gas? You need to manage the details and accept the consequences along with the rewards.

How the various products are used are entirely up to the customer. If he wants to disable his meth safety (or not buy one), disable his hardware safety, tune himself to 18-19psi, not monitor timing, etc, that is entirely on him. When you start making changes to things especially to push the boundaries you take that responsibility upon yourself to know what you're doing and manage the details. Once you change something and push the gas pedal down you accept the consequences of your actions. The owner had those tools available to him (BT to monitor timing, hardware safety, meth hardwire safety, etc) but for whatever reason in this case didn't put it all together. And maybe he did everything right and the motor just can't take those power levels for long.

Mike

But, he didn't use the standard board like most people. He got the 12 ohm board, which I never heard of until this incident.

So, you must know that he's doing something special since a custom board was sold to him and not many people request a custom board. Maybe there should be very definite guidelines on what to do and even less user adjusted variables (ensure that fail safes are always on)?

[themyst]

Originally Posted by onesuperboi

But, he didn't use the standard board like most people. He got the 12 ohm board, which I never heard of until this incident.

So, you must know that he's doing something special since a custom board was sold to him since not many people request a custom board. Maybe there should be very definite guidelines on what to do and even less user adjusted variables (ensure that fail safes are always on)?

I doubt they sold him a 12ohm board. Cutting off a few resistors and soldering in new ones is not exactly rocket science.

[onesuperboi]

Originally Posted by themyst

I doubt they sold him a 12ohm board. Cutting off a few resistors and soldering in new ones is not exactly rocket science.

OK. So, were they aware that he had a 12 ohm board before the incident? Terry does have excellent customer service, so I'm pretty sure he'd be aware of a customer doing something like this and assisting.

My point is that maybe for the users that are pushing the boundaries, there should be more guidelines and enforce some mechanisms (like fail safes) that the user could not disable.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by onesuperboi

But, he didn't use the standard board like most people. He got the 12 ohm board, which I never heard of until this incident.

So, you must know that he's doing something special since a custom board was sold to him and not many people request a custom board. Maybe there should be very definite guidelines on what to do and even less user adjusted variables (ensure that fail safes are always on)?

The 12ohm was not sold to him and yes it is very aggressive. He manually removed the hardware failsafe himself to run those higher boost levels. If you read the DIY thread discussing the modification it clearly explains the risks of higher boost levels.

Mike

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by tres

jpslick I dont know much about engines but from reading your posts are you saying the ignition problem can be solved with software. I have some friends with turbo cars (jdm) and they always upgrade pistons rods intercooler ecu etc. and lower the compression in their engines. Do the same rules apply to the n54 or is it a different ball game.

Generally speaking an engine is an engine, but its far easier to lower compression and swap pistons in a Honda Civic so to speak as the aftermarket support has been around for decades, while this car is in its infancy. There are some part available but I wouldnt say readily available in the least.

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

No one said pulling 2 degrees is like pulling 6 degrees. I said the same knock threshold detection mechanism used to pull the 2 degrees is used to pull the 6 degrees. Looking at timing curves it's clear everyone is riding the same system so it's hypocritical for some to jump on their high horse and preach here and then when their customers post logs say everything is fine. Not to mention the fact that the whole concept of autotuning boost based on knock sensor feedback is inherently relying on the knock sensors.

This is all off topic anyway as we're talking about a failure at 18.5psi where meth was relied on to provide octane. If you're boosting that high relying on the meth to keep it together you better make sure the safety systems are all setup and fully functional and the minimum flow window sufficient to cover your boost curve at full advance.

Mike

You must be a politician at heart cause your tune (no pun intended) just changes from post to post. Regardless of that, I never said which tunes do what in regards to riding the knock sensor. Does the Jb3 ride the knock sensor? Does the Procede? You say they both do? If it is the case of both then I guess they are both wrong.... Shiv/Calvin say it does..... They can say whatever they want; All this babble still doesnt matter as my point is simply showing how ignition should work and how ignition is working on some tunes.

Going back on topic.... we havnt heard anything from the horses mouth that is substantial enough to determine anything. For all we know he could have unplugged the damn meth kit to see what happens. Who the hell knows.

All this guy really needs to come in and say what happened and put this guessing game to bed.

[vase330]

Originally Posted by Sniz

heh, your fine w your setup man. I'm sure your car is happy as clam. Actually Adam is now poking around at the idea of installing an Aquamist system on his M5.

What? He got an M5 now? Tell me he has a Turbo on it... oh man, I want a ride so bad. Is it faster than your M3? I will hit you up when I am up that way. Man I wanted to come up get you to install a meth kit in my car, but all this discussion making me weak kneed.

[kenneth]

Mike, how does the JB3 failsafe work (when not disabled of course)?

[badinfluence]

Vishnu VS. BMS ? it started i guess
think now it's BMS vs. everyone else.

is there anyone here on BMS's side?
i'm not a US citizen, but driving 335i and interested in both procede and jb.
and jb3 is stacked over my bmw performance power kit.


one more thing,
i'm not an engine expert, but i think the spontaneous detonation or explosion
in any cylinder could be triggered by excessive heat produced by the high rev and boost.
and i also think any ignition retard systems have their limit.
what happens if the heat soaks over the limit?
jb or procede?
over 18 psi and meth could mean anything but they'll produce excessive
heat and harsh condition for n54.
is this thread about failsafe or meeting the ringland?

[onesuperboi]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

The 12ohm was not sold to him and yes it is very aggressive. He manually removed the hardware failsafe himself to run those higher boost levels. If you read the DIY thread discussing the modification it clearly explains the risks of higher boost levels.

Mike

I guess it's a bad idea give the users the ability to modify the board rather than just the settings...

[scottp999]

Originally Posted by vase330

What? He got an M5 now? Tell me he has a Turbo on it... oh man, I want a ride so bad. Is it faster than your M3? I will hit you up when I am up that way. Man I wanted to come up get you to install a meth kit in my car, but all this discussion making me weak kneed.

off topic

He has the ESS Super Charger at about 7-8 PSI (with the pulley upgrade). The car is a neck snapper. Was over there last weekend for part of his Brembo install. Trying to convince him a little bit of meth, just for cooling would be great. His ECU isn't tuned for more fuel, but a small nozzle to keep it running nicely in hot weather would be perfect.

Get a meth kit, it's safe if you have a the right hardware, software, and keep the boost to 16.5 - 17 with 93 octane. These engine failures are with people that are pushing the limits.

/off topic

[vase330]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

...

How the various products are used are entirely up to the customer. If he wants to disable his meth safety (or not buy one), disable his hardware safety, tune himself to 18-19psi, not monitor timing, etc, that is entirely on him. When you start making changes to things especially to push the boundaries you take that responsibility upon yourself to know what you're doing and manage the details. Once you change something and push the gas pedal down you accept the consequences of your actions. The owner had those tools available to him (BT to monitor timing, hardware safety, meth hardwire safety, etc) but for whatever reason in this case didn't put it all together. And maybe he did everything right and the motor just can't take those power levels for long.

Mike

Man this just sounds bad. Is there a way to make sure customers can't do dumb sh1t like this with your tune? ... I can't get the anology of you starting to sound like a gun manufacturer off my mind now... No offense, but dam!! You know those cards they package with guns? the ones that say "always point weapon in a safe direction", eh, "Do not point this at anything you don't wish the destroy.." well, customer walks down to the local gun shop, buys himself the shiniest one on display, that promises acuracy, no rusting, bra, bra, bra.... then he does this... IMO, and ideal tune should atleast attempt to detect the muzzle is in his mouth and fail to fire.

[vase330]

Thanks scottp999, I have seen 16.5 on the Rixster gauge with my tune. I have FMIC, DPs, CAI and I left everything default. I run exclusively 93 oct. I heard spikes are normal, but should I lower the limit to 15 maybe? I don't want to take even a 10% chance.

[Sniz]

Originally Posted by scottp999

off topic

He has the ESS Super Charger at about 7-8 PSI (with the pulley upgrade). The car is a neck snapper. Was over there last weekend for part of his Brembo install. Trying to convince him a little bit of meth, just for cooling would be great. His ECU isn't tuned for more fuel, but a small nozzle to keep it running nicely in hot weather would be perfect.

Get a meth kit, it's safe if you have a the right hardware, software, and keep the boost to 16.5 - 17 with 93 octane. These engine failures are with people that are pushing the limits.

/off topic

yes his car is a beast and a neck snapper, a little meth flowing into that madusa intake plenum would help him out big time, he needs to reduce IAT's badly and since the kit he has does not include an intercooler, the addition of meth will be a nice kick.

Originally Posted by vase330

Man this just sounds bad. Is there a way to make sure customers can't do dumb sh1t like this with your tune? ... I can't get the anology of you starting to sound like a gun manufacturer... No offense, but dam!! You know those cards they package with guns? the ones that say "always point weapon in a safe direction", eh, "Do not point this at anything you don't wish the destroy.." well, customer walks down to the local gun shop, buys himself the shiniest one on display, that promises acuracy, no rusting, bra, bra, bra.... then he does this... IMO, and ideal tune should atleast attempt to detect the muzzle is in his mouth and fail to fire.

well that would be the idea gun, and idea tune.

[Sniz]

Originally Posted by vase330

Thanks scottp999, I have seen 16.5 on the Rixster gauge with my tune. I have FMIC, DPs, CAI and I left everything default. I run exclusively 93 oct. I heard spikes are normal, but should I lower the limit to 15 maybe? I don't want to take even a 10% chance.

have you seen 16.5psi on the peak recall or as a sustained boost level? big difference.

[vase330]

Originally Posted by Sniz

have you seen 16.5psi on the peak recall or as a sustained boost level? big difference.

Ideal tune my arse.. Most of us are like little kids. Don't hand dangerous things to them or its just a matter of time before we see this.

To answer your question, Peak recall.

[WOPALX]

Mike I always laugh when people start believing their own bull sh*t as fact.

FACT 1: Your current tune does not monitor (as said by yourself in this thread) or attempt to itself adjust a critical aspect of tuning by any means (i.e. CPS offsetting), more critical as additional mods are added to make power. This is commonly know as indirect or direct timing control.

FACT 2: You sell additional mods to make more power and hide behind the 'customer should know what they are doing' mantra when things go tit's up, knowing that Fact #1 becomes more of an issue when these additional mods are entered into the mix. Methanol would be the one most common.

FACT 3: The manufacturer gives customers instructions on circumventing hardware safety systems themselves, knowing that in combination with Fact 1 and Fact 2 it could easily cause a catastrophic failure of the engine or it's components.

FACT 4: JB3 in it's current form has been running on 2 engines that have blown, V4 has no reported failures.

Those are FACTS, lets try and deal only in this unit of currency.

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

Maybe you didn't bother to read the first post of this thread, but it was from BMS discussing the dangerous of said power levels and modifications.... You want to run 18-19psi on pump gas? You need to manage the details and accept the consequences along with the rewards.

How the various products are used are entirely up to the customer. If he wants to disable his meth safety (or not buy one), disable his hardware safety, tune himself to 18-19psi, not monitor timing, etc, that is entirely on him. When you start making changes to things especially to push the boundaries you take that responsibility upon yourself to know what you're doing and manage the details. Once you change something and push the gas pedal down you accept the consequences of your actions. The owner had those tools available to him (BT to monitor timing, hardware safety, meth hardwire safety, etc) but for whatever reason in this case didn't put it all together. And maybe he did everything right and the motor just can't take those power levels for long.

Mike

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

The 12ohm was not sold to him and yes it is very aggressive. He manually removed the hardware failsafe himself to run those higher boost levels. If you read the DIY thread discussing the modification it clearly explains the risks of higher boost levels.

Mike