[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by InCityPhoto

And this has what to do with timing or using the OEM knock sensor that BMS currently uses?

Im sorry, but as a professional in my own business, you should have respect for competitors, even if you feel they have done and or are doing wrong.

Two wrongs don't make a right Shiv.

So it was my wrong for accurately recounting history for those who were not here to witness it firsthand?

Shiv

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by InCityPhoto

Then I guess it works great! no bad, no good, just works

Please provide data showing it works great? I provided data in the first post saying it doesnt.

[skinrock]

Originally Posted by DaFish

I think we need to hear from you skinrock please. All these charts and spikes and knocks is techno babble to me.... lets get back to real life.

1) from the comparisons I have seen on JB4 and Procede... the track/drag results are similar for speed. Seems to me the JB4 is performing well.

2) skinrock, maybe you could give me a description on how the car drives... DD and then WOT 1,2, 3 gears.... do you see or hear knock, or drop in power....

3) is there a reliability issue on the JB4? What is the problem here with knocking...

3) Clap - I don't understand the purpose of the thread - turn the technical into real life for me please. What are you getting at? Is there a flat spot in the performance of the car when it gets hot? What is the big deal if JB4 doesn't control timing (as you claim)... if they are getting the peformance what does it matter how they do it?

Why did you want Mike/Terry to chime in - from a real life experience ? What is the problem? A graph doesn't tell me anything - I can't read it.

I am looking to go to a different tune other than my Dinan - I am out of warranty.

1. I obviously can't compare since I have not been to the track nor have I taken it to a dyno. When deciding which one to go with, they did seem pretty close performance wise.

2. DD is fine, it doesn't really change anything IMO. I've heard some people say it makes it smoother, but I haven't seen that. Sometimes in DS mode it feels like it jerks forward when it upshifts and I'm not going WOT (usually if I have to let off the gas), but I don't know if that's because of the JB4, and it shifts fine and fast going WOT. The only difference is when I go WOT. Obviously there is the huge power difference, but there have been a few cases where I went to floor it and it felt bogged down. Some people recommended downpipes and exhaust to help alleviate that. I haven't heard or felt knock, but that doesn't mean it hasn't. I am planning on getting a cheap netbook so that I can update my JB4 as well as start logging.

3. I have only had mine in for a month and maybe 1000 miles (if that). Probably too early to say, but I know a lot of people have logged a lot of miles with JB.

4. I don't understand the point either. I originally thought it was for everybody that runs it, and then some people make it sound like it's only for FBO running 15+ boost. I am personally only running Map 1 (13.5 psi), and will never go above that. I thought the point was to get more info to everyone, but when I tried asking where are all the people with issues, apparently everyone is like me and doesn't report them. So if no one reports them, I'm not sure how he knows so many people are having issues.

[Clap135]

Your automic car bogging when you floor it is knock. NExt the you can log, see if you can capture it, I will simply tell you in advace your timing curve will plummet when u feel this "bog"

[InCityPhoto]

Originally Posted by Clap135

Please provide data showing it works great? I provided data in the first post saying it doesnt.

If there is no negative imput, and no positive imput, its based on opinion if it works or not, and seeing that quite a few people are using it without problem, seems it works pretty well..

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

So it was my wrong for accurately recounting history for those who were not here to witness it firsthand?

Shiv

It would be wrong to bring up personal issues in a manor that is found to be unprofessional, when discussing something completely irrelevant to the subject of the thread you are posting said information in. That is MY OPINION.

If you feel the need to lower yourself to that point, thats your opinion, and I respect your opinions on letting people know what you feel is necessary.

Originally Posted by skinrock

1. I obviously can't compare since I have not been to the track nor have I taken it to a dyno. When deciding which one to go with, they did seem pretty close performance wise.

2. DD is fine, it doesn't really change anything IMO. I've heard some people say it makes it smoother, but I haven't seen that. Sometimes in DS mode it feels like it jerks forward when it upshifts and I'm not going WOT (usually if I have to let off the gas), but I don't know if that's because of the JB4, and it shifts fine and fast going WOT. The only difference is when I go WOT. Obviously there is the huge power difference, but there have been a few cases where I went to floor it and it felt bogged down. Some people recommended downpipes and exhaust to help alleviate that. I haven't heard or felt knock, but that doesn't mean it hasn't. I am planning on getting a cheap netbook so that I can update my JB4 as well as start logging.

3. I have only had mine in for a month and maybe 1000 miles (if that). Probably too early to say, but I know a lot of people have logged a lot of miles with JB.

4. I don't understand the point either. I originally thought it was for everybody that runs it, and then some people make it sound like it's only for FBO running 15+ boost. I am personally only running Map 1 (13.5 psi), and will never go above that. I thought the point was to get more info to everyone, but when I tried asking where are all the people with issues, apparently everyone is like me and doesn't report them. So if no one reports them, I'm not sure how he knows so many people are having issues.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by InCityPhoto

If there is no negative imput, and no positive imput, its based on opinion if it works or not, and seeing that quite a few people are using it without problem, seems it works pretty well..




It would be wrong to bring up personal issues in a manor that is found to be unprofessional, when discussing something completely irrelevant to the subject of the thread you are posting said information in. That is MY OPINION.

If you feel the need to lower yourself to that point, thats your opinion, and I respect your opinions on letting people know what you feel is necessary.

But there is negative input, as terry recently stated, you want to avoide timing drop offs. Please provide proof, where you don't want to avoid timing drop offs. For a person that demands facts, you sure are very opinionated, which would make you a hypocrite by definition.

[InCityPhoto]

Originally Posted by Clap135

But there is negative input, as terry recently stated, you want to avoide timing drop offs. Please provide proof, where you don't want to avoid timing drop offs.

I never said you want to avoid timing drop off, have I?

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by InCityPhoto

I never said you want to avoid timing drop off, have I?

You didnt, thats why I want proof why you should ignore timing drop offs.

[InCityPhoto]

Originally Posted by Clap135

You didnt, thats why I want proof why you should avoid timing drop offs.

That would be almost impossible.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by InCityPhoto

That would be almost impossible.

So is your success in this thread....but you still go on.

Simply show proof, thats all.

[InCityPhoto]

Originally Posted by Clap135

So is your success in this thread....but you still go on.

Simply show proof, thats all.

Proof of what?

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by Clap135

I have yet to see how not detrmental it is....

This basic tuning method for timing advance has been used since early 2007 on close to 10,000 cars. Via the JB1, JB2, JB+, JB3 (5000 of those alone), and now JB4. Tens of millions of customer driven miles including tons of crazy guys modifying the board for more boost and making 430rw+. With a failure rate not much higher than untuned motors. Also I love how you guys clump someone running a JB3 @ 19psi with every mod possible and an unlocked board in with the average user who runs 13psi. Yes, the 19psi is a much higher risk scenario.

Mike

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by InCityPhoto

It would be wrong to bring up personal issues in a manor that is found to be unprofessional, when discussing something completely irrelevant to the subject of the thread you are posting said information in. That is MY OPINION.

Is recalling how a company was caught in a massive lie a "personal issue"? Or is it a factual statement based upon historical evidence that goes a long way answering the question "So why doesn't Terry adjust the timing curve?" (post #227)

InCityPhoto- You are aggressively defending the indefensible in many fronts.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by InCityPhoto

Proof of what?

Proof that timing drop offs are not dangerous.

[BrianMN]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Because it's not. I have a pretty good grasp on the problems people have with JB tunes. As does Cobb I'm sure. From what i've seen, there are very few long term JB users. They usually purchase the tune because of the attractive price. But once they they learn more about what it really does (or doesn't do), they jump ship and move to something that better suits their needs.

It's no surprise that just about all those arguing for proper timing control in this thread are former JB users. JPslick, Ilma, Clap135, themyst, etc,. The only axe they have to grind is seeing others fall for the same nonsense they fell for earlier on.

shiv

Even though I haven't been active in this thread, you forgot me in that list of former JB users, haha. And the purpose you mentioned is spot on. The natural progression of N54 owners is to: look online for what mods to buy, have 50 people tell them that the JB3/4 is fricken awesome and it's only $500, they buy it and rip for a bit but begin to get accustomed to the poor driveability and inconsistency, then spend a few hours actually reading on a technical level and buy a proper tune. By that time, most of the smart people who originally said "JB ftw" have moved on anyways.

Originally Posted by InCityPhoto

Or possibly after many years being happy with the product and not having any troubles, they want to move onto something different that can go beyond the OEM sensors?

That's not the case with 99% of the experienced members on here... It's simply about improper vs. proper.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

So it was my wrong for accurately recounting history for those who were not here to witness it firsthand?

Shiv

It's a false recount of history. For starters I was not involved here in 2008 when the JB3 launched. So why my name is mentioned in it is beyond me. Secondly no such promise of CPS offsetting was ever made. Simply that timing was retarded and that has proven to be true.

Mike

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

This basic tuning method for timing advance has been used since early 2007 on close to 10,000 cars. Via the JB1, JB2, JB+, JB3 (5000 of those alone), and now JB4. Tens of millions of customer driven miles including tons of crazy guys modifying the board for more boost and making 430rw+. With a failure rate not much higher than untuned motors. Also I love how you guys clump someone running a JB3 @ 19psi with every mod possible and an unlocked board in with the average user who runs 13psi. Yes, the 19psi is a much higher risk scenario.

Mike

Why are you mentiong 430whp on race gas/meth aplications and the say jb user at 19psi is not the average user? Mike can you name one active member on here that has had a juicebox tune for 3 years? You and terry don't count.

[InCityPhoto]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Is recalling how a company was caught in a massive lie a "personal issue"? Or is it a factual statement based upon historical evidence that goes a long way answering the question "So why doesn't Terry adjust the timing curve?" (post #227)

InCityPhoto- You are aggressively defending the indefensible in many fronts.

I would think that is a personal issue that has no reason to be in a thread having to do with Knock sensors and Timing control.

I am not defending anything, simply asking questions.

Originally Posted by BrianMN

Even though I haven't been active in this thread, you forgot me in that list of former JB users, haha. And the purpose you mentioned is spot on. The natural progression of N54 owners is to: look online for what mods to buy, have 50 people tell them that the JB3/4 is fricken awesome and it's only $500, they buy it and rip for a bit but begin to get accustomed to the poor driveability and inconsistency, then spend a few hours actually reading on a technical level and buy a proper tune. By that time, most of the smart people who originally said "JB ftw" have moved on anyways.



That's not the case with 99% of the experienced members on here... It's simply about improper vs. proper.

That is not based on statistic but by opinions.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by InCityPhoto

I would think that is a personal issue that has no reason to be in a thread having to do with Knock sensors and Timing control.

I am not defending anything, simply asking questions.





That is not based on statistic but by opinions.

You are not askign questions, you are making attacts towards valid claims with no proof to back up your personal opinions, which are simply put....wrong.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by Clap135

Your automic car bogging when you floor it is knock. NExt the you can log, see if you can capture it, I will simply tell you in advace your timing curve will plummet when u feel this "bog"

That is complete nonsense. DTC pulls timing to reduce torque as well. If autopid isn't enabled he could just be getting throttle trimming. The only way to determine if he had a timing drop out would be to log it and such a drop out does not constitute knock.

Mike

[InCityPhoto]

Originally Posted by Clap135

You are not askign questions, you are making attacts towards valid claims with no proof to back up your personal opinions, which are simply put....wrong.

I am asking questions towards Claims that have no data to back them up, Yes.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by InCityPhoto

I am asking questions towards Claims that have no data to back them up, Yes.

By making claims that the data out theres shows no proff. Please support those claims with proof.