[flinchy]

Originally Posted by NYC6

Racing engines are beefed up units and often rebuilt or replaced after every race or thereabouts. Comparing them to production engines doesnt wash.

Yes its more expnsive to make the composite blocks. But they knew that going in and went on anyway.
If it were such a great idea and successful they would still be at it. They also would have used the N52 block in the high hp cars(135/335/is models/1M) but they didnt. Cost had nothing to do with it. Weakness did.

Im not sure if the internals are forged or not. Granted I did type that under the assumption they're cast. Would like to know for sure if you can supply a link that would be great.

It was a production race series mostly by first timer or amateurs, designed so the engines did NOT need constant rebuilding

It actually requires stock internals, among other things. Intake/exhaust is altered heavily though, and full custom tuning (but still nothing crazy like race fuel or e85)

Cost definitely had to do with it.. It's very obviously CHEAPER to throw boost at a cast iron block, disregard pretty much all emissions requirements (fuel consumption usually isn't anywhere close between models). Disregard needing LOTS of rnd.. Proven solution, definitely the smart thing to do. You know what <helped> let them do that though? The n52, lowering their overall emissions in the model bracket it was made for. Manufacturers making efficient models lets them blow it on high end models, as the targets are company wide not just model.

I'll have to grab you the link when i get home, phone isn't handy lol

I actually just found a MANY page tech doc that i got about 1/4 the way through that i'll finish reading tonight (hass all the specifics about cams and machineability of the deck and stuff)

Remaining N/A on these cars as modified as you could go, 3.2L, cams, ITB's and straight through headers and exhaust with an aftermarket ECU, you'd have to expect WAY over 350hp.. Just no one has ever done the whole lot including the stroker kit :/.. Pity.

[e90pilot]

There are many series that don't allow you to change the internals. Grand Am ST class is very restrictive about what you can modify. The big thing in that series is the aftermarket Bosch ECU. I don't think you can change out the engine internals unless it is a factory available part for the car. Many cars even run the stock gearbox. N52 I think run about 300hp but no cats and a VERY custom tune. A muffler is required though.

The races are usually 3 hours with pit stops and driver changes. The eninge usually lasts the season which leads me to believe its pretty tough. Of course they run crazy oil coolers and radiators, but fragile internals wouldn't be able to handle that kind of abuse. BMW also builds the car to last so I don't think they're as weak as you think.

Boost is a whole different animal but he's not going to boost it way down low in which case you'd have the highest internal pressures. He's boosting up high where there's a natural loss in compression due to high air flow through the computation chamber.

[NYC6]

Grand Am ST car regulations taken directly from their site........

STREET TUNER (ST)

The ST (Street Tuner) class features a variety of sports cars and high-performance compacts that are as equally popular with Grand-Am Cup competitors as they are with today’s consumers. Unlike the bigger GS class where V-8s are allowed, ST is limited to four and six cylinder engines although turbochargers and superchargers are permitted.

Engines produce between 170 and 240 horsepower depending on the car while minimum weights range from 2,200 lbs. on the low side for the Mini Cooper S up to 2,925 lbs. for the BMW 330. Fuel tank capacities range from 16.9 gallons for the Porsche Boxster and Mazda 6 up to a high of 17.9 gallons for the Lexus IS 300 and Mazda RX-8, two models that both won races in the last few seasons of Grand-Am Cup competition. Most competing ST cars have 17-gallon fuel tanks including 2004 race winners such as the Acura RSX and BMW 328 and 330. Like the GS class, the only major modifications allowed in ST are in the area of safety. Top speed for ST race cars is about 135 mph.

Sorry guys. 240 hp is the upper limit of hp allowed. No coincidence there Im afraid.

[e90pilot]

That's sounds wheel HP. My brother used to race in ST class. His car had 265hp. And those don't seem like regulations. Looks like just a description. It's too hard to just limit HP for a regulation body. They instead add a ballast to your car.

[NYC6]

Originally Posted by e90pilot

That's sounds wheel HP. My brother used to race in ST class. His car had 265hp. And those don't seem like regulations. Looks like just a description.

Racing uses advertised crank hp/tq numbers. We all know how dynos wildly differ.
Also, racing doesnt use 'suggestions' for the teams to use or not use. They are clear cut rules for power and weights...... Get weighed in 10lbs over weight and a big fat DQ. We all know this, right?

[e90pilot]

I can tell you for a fact that the all cars make more than the advertised numbers (I'm guessing the stock numbers?) and the top condensers will sandbag up the straights. HP isnt regulated, you get a weight ballast. My brother's Z4 had a huge 170-lb block of aluminum in the passenger footwell.

There's a team that used to race ST class here that made 218 whp on a dynojet with nothing more than removing the cat. Stock ones make around 200 whp. And if a team is making big power they keep quiet. Heck, Dinan got 270hp out of their 330 which isn't too different from a 328. They hardly did anything to it. They have a pretty sophisticated dyno setup too. 300hp isn't a stretch.

I'm getting a little off topic here. What I was trying to say was weak internals don't last for three hours at full throttle. The N52 isn't fragile. I have 180k+ mi on mine and still track it. It's got a leaky head gasket that only manifests itself on the track. I'm not exactly nice to my car either. Now lifting the head could be an issue which it often is with FI, but that's another story.

[flinchy]

Originally Posted by e90pilot

I can tell you for a fact that the all cars make more than the advertised numbers (I'm guessing the stock numbers?) and the top condensers will sandbag up the straights. HP isnt regulated, you get a weight ballast. My brother's Z4 had a huge 170-lb block of aluminum in the passenger footwell.

There's a team that used to race ST class here that made 218 whp on a dynojet with nothing more than removing the cat. Stock ones make around 200 whp. And if a team is making big power they keep quiet. Heck, Dinan got 270hp out of their 330 which isn't too different from a 328. They hardly did anything to it. They have a pretty sophisticated dyno setup too. 300hp isn't a stretch.

I'm getting a little off topic here. What I was trying to say was weak internals don't last for three hours at full throttle. The N52 isn't fragile. I have 180k+ mi on mine and still track it. It's got a leaky head gasket that only manifests itself on the track. I'm not exactly nice to my car either. Now lifting the head could be an issue which it often is with FI, but that's another story.

it actually seems that while my car is rated to 265hp, which means it should see ~230-235 at the wheels.. i may not see that, not even close.. i'll find out in a week on the dyno, but still

euro manufacturers seem to understimate a lot of their cars, where almost all JDM cars are underestimated (tax reasons)

did dinan get 270whp or flywheel? if that's flywheel, then that's .. well that's stock for some N52's, you realise?

yeah, i've read you can't really have super tight head studs on these or it chews out the alu head?

should replace the gasket before it blows? haha much cheaper

[NYC6]

Every stock dyno I've seen here and other sites of a N52 comes in under 200hp/200tq on a dynojet the most 'optomistic' of load dynos.

If magnesium/aluminum blocks were such a great idea being 30% lighter than aluminum and strong enough to handle a lot of power then all the bigger budget racing series from the bottom up to F1 would be using them, they're not, they use aluminum. You guys believe what you want to.

Do your head gasket asap! It will go very quickly and be catastophic when it does!

[e90pilot]

Dynojet are the highest I've seen. Always 10-20 HP more than a Mustang or Dyno Dynamics. Also they differ from machine to machine. Average dynos I've seen for 325 is 180-190whp and 225whp for a 330. The 328 is 195-205 on the dynojet. Really the dyno is only good for relative data. It's really hard to extrapolate especially on roller dynos. Dynapack, which is what Dinan uses along with climate controlled air supply to the engine, can measure drivetrain loss accurately. They one of the reasons Dinan publishes he crank HP figures.

We're also not talking about a lot of power. Big budget purpose-built race cars have 600-800 HP and way more compression. We're talking almost only half that which much larger displacement per cylinder than a real racing engine. Production based racing engine usually have to stick to whatever the production version uses and the could be due to production costs. Maybe that's why BMW is killing the magnesium alloy block. It just costs too much. I'm just speculating though.

Off topic:

About my head gasket, I think the gasket is ok (well was ok) but the head is warped very slightly or the head bolts are loose. That's why it only gives me issues when it gets extreamly hot. I need to he the head decked so I might as well rebuild it. A new head is $1500 which suprised me. I though it would be much more.

[VirtuousWolf]

Originally Posted by flinchy

Remaining N/A on these cars as modified as you could go, 3.2L, cams, ITB's and straight through headers and exhaust with an aftermarket ECU, you'd have to expect WAY over 350hp.. Just no one has ever done the whole lot including the stroker kit :/.. Pity.

Are these parts available?? I have always been really interested in them, but have never been able to find any

Thanks! Sorry I'm guessing they aren't but I would really like some Please AA hook us up!!!

[just4kickz]

Originally Posted by VirtuousWolf

Are these parts available?? I have always been really interested in them, but have never been able to find any

Thanks! Sorry I'm guessing they aren't but I would really like some Please AA hook us up!!!

haha you live in lubbock? i was about to go to tech for grad school haha...

i doubt there are parts available. everything is custom.

[BudVlad]

Originally Posted by NYC6

If magnesium/aluminum blocks were such a great idea being 30% lighter than aluminum and strong enough to handle a lot of power then all the bigger budget racing series from the bottom up to F1 would be using them, they're not, they use aluminum.

F1 engine can’t use magnesium because of the regulations:
“Magnesium based alloys, Metal Matrix Composites (MMC’s) and Intermetallic materials may not be used anywhere in an engine.”

[TSM330i]

Originally Posted by VirtuousWolf

Are these parts available?? I have always been really interested in them, but have never been able to find any

Thanks! Sorry I'm guessing they aren't but I would really like some Please AA hook us up!!!

RMP is doing cams and has tuned their racing engines very well. They have custom pistons too I believe among other products as well. If you want to go NA route, contact them for sure.
Schrick refuses to do a cam for our engines because they say there isn't much left in them since our cams are infinately variable.
Stroker kit was available at one time, but was VERY costly and was quoted as 306hp.

[NYC6]

Originally Posted by BudVlad

F1 engine can’t use magnesium because of the regulations:
“Magnesium based alloys, Metal Matrix Composites (MMC’s) and Intermetallic materials may not be used anywhere in an engine.”

OK, excluding F1, no other racing series uses mag/al blocks. Theres a reason why and its not cost. It wasnt that much money for BMW to put them in their entry level vehicles. They did so because of the lower power levels in those cars.
Dont you think they would utilize the enormous weight savings in their flagship M line? It weighs 30% less than aluminum. If any maker could make it work they certainly would do it. Its really obvious.

The N52 has been with us since 04. Where are any S/C or turbo kits for the engine? Also obvious.

[flinchy]

Originally Posted by TSM330i

RMP is doing cams and has tuned their racing engines very well. They have custom pistons too I believe among other products as well. If you want to go NA route, contact them for sure.
Schrick refuses to do a cam for our engines because they say there isn't much left in them since our cams are infinately variable.
Stroker kit was available at one time, but was VERY costly and was quoted as 306hp.

The cams aren't ininitely variable at all.. Only the valves are variable and youre better off for power doing lock to max.. You could still have a perfect street car with 27x/27x, standard lift no lope, and you could go higher if you don't mind a rough idle or upgrading springs/removing valvetronic entirely

They're 255/263 degrees static, n52 owners alreay have shown gains with custom cams

Also, the stroker kit is still available you realize? The producer is 'noelle' and yeah 302hp without any other mods, impressive!!

http://www.noellemotors.de/3_2l_engine_basis_BMW_N52_B30.262.0.html


Oh and who is rmp? I can't google them, want to sendthem an email if they do actually do cams

[flinchy]

Originally Posted by NYC6

OK, excluding F1, no other racing series uses mag/al blocks. Theres a reason why and its not cost. It wasnt that much money for BMW to put them in their entry level vehicles. They did so because of the lower power levels in those cars.
Dont you think they would utilize the enormous weight savings in their flagship M line? It weighs 30% less than aluminum. If any maker could make it work they certainly would do it. Its really obvious.

The N52 has been with us since 04. Where are any S/C or turbo kits for the engine? Also obvious.

The main reason for a full race series (f1 in particular) because if you burn magnesium you CANNOT put it out, an the fuels used in f1 are capable of igniting mg

Ed: i already said why not to use, because it's cheaper.. Less rnd etc. just because m cars are flagship doesn't mean tey don't want to profit...

[BudVlad]

Originally Posted by flinchy

Also, the stroker kit is still available you realize? The producer is 'noelle' and yeah 302hp without any other mods, impressive!!

Manhart Racing in Germany will increase output of N53 (same engine block as N52) to 302 hp without stroking.

http://www.manhart-racing.de/german/...n-msd-81-7.php

[flinchy]

Originally Posted by BudVlad

Manhart Racing in Germany will increase output of N53 (same engine block as N52) to 302 hp without stroking.

http://www.manhart-racing.de/german/...n-msd-81-7.php

"The stage at 302 hp is realized only in conjunction with an in-house exhaust system."
282hp no exhaust, that's normal for just a tune (considering no tune an n52 is 265-270hp from the factory in 'top trim' and an exhaust (headers and cat back) will add pretty handily 25-30hp expected

this is nothing out of the ordainary, that AA or anyone should be able to offer.

[BudVlad]

I didn’t say it’s out of ordinary. Just that it can be done without increasing displacement.

[flinchy]

Originally Posted by BudVlad

I didn’t say it’s out of ordinary. Just that it can be done without increasing displacement.

yeah.. but did you think about what the same mods... AND increasing displacement would do?

these type of mods usually combine to be greater than the sum of their parts

if a stroker kit (as far as i can tell WITHOUT a proper tune) will effectively get you 35-40 horsepower.. and headers and a cat back will get you say 25.. and a tune will add a bit extra on top of all that (say 10-15 *at least* with all the mods together), smooth it out, bit more down low etc...

[NYC6]

Heres a quick list of E9X cars on this forum of current M3's with S/C's installed. The 8 cyl M3 engine came out 3 years after the N52 platform was released. I'm confident that there are way more N52 based cars than there are V8 M3's all across the world.
Why would these makers ignore easy money? Why wouldn't these S/C manufacturers have built systems for the mg/al based cars LONG ago? Doesnt that raise red flags with anyone here?
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...&highlight=ess

[Dr.GumbyM.D.]

Originally Posted by NYC6

Heres a quick list of E9X cars on this forum of current M3's with S/C's installed. The 8 cyl M3 engine came out 3 years after the N52 platform was released. I'm confident that there are way more N52 based cars than there are V8 M3's all across the world.
Why would these makers ignore easy money? Why wouldn't these S/C manufacturers have built systems for the mg/al based cars LONG ago? Doesnt that raise red flags with anyone here?
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...&highlight=ess

Because M3 owners have more disposable income and are more "BMW Enthusiasts" than normal 3-series owners?