[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by David70

A cheap ICE is still cheaper than a cheap car. I never said it wasn't. The price differential continues to get smaller.

We are on a BMW forum and they have also never made sense from a financial point of view, yet I have never seen someone try to "run the numbers' to show there is something cheaper. If people only bought what they needed, about 90% of the population would drive minivans and Civic sized cars, BMW wouldn't exist. You decided to try to show the massive price difference between the Accord and Tesla (aided by $15k Full Self Driving as the base Tesla comes with almost everything), used to be people would try to run the numbers with a base 3 series. Look how far they have come.

I would never do a 60 month purchase with only 10% down so your finance numbers won't apply to me.

Charge at home, estimated fuel savings on the Tesla is $950 per year (12k miles per year). Drive it for 10 years and this is likely around $10k. Starts looking pretty close in overall cost? https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find...id=46363&#tab1
Additional time and money savings on maintenance, likely repair over time.

I would charge the Tesla in roughly 30 seconds per week, never making an additional. Refueling would be far easier. Even the trip twice a year I still think it would be simpler overall. I don't believe I average 5 minutes refueling my car when the total process of getting to the gas station to back on route are taken into account.

0-60 almost a second faster doesn't give the owner bragging rights on being way faster? What is the number?

The price difference is getting smaller and the EV comes with a lot of benefits for the right buyer. There are definitely also some downsides. Depends on how you plan to use it.

If you only want the cheapest form of transportation available you should leave this site as it has never happened with a BMW.

You are the one who brought up pricing, not me, lol. I ran the numbers not with you in mind. 10% down-payment is somewhat standard for auto financing.

I see no benefits of EV. Range restricted, range recovery restricted, too heavy for good dynamics. I've driven a few electrics and have spent a few hours in both the Model 3 and Model X. I find EV interesting from an engineering perspective, but as a vehicle, they have too many compromises for my preferences. And as I originally said, EV fan boys point to 0 - 60 times, which is the predictable retort.

My only issue with EV are political. What anyone decides to buy and drive is their business, but when my tax dollars are involved and my cost of living is affected by mandating BEV, then I have an issue with EV. Develop a serial hybrid EV, then I'm willing to write a check for one.

[fcman]

Originally Posted by Car-Addicted

You mean like this solar farm?
Hail Storm Destroys Solar Farm in Nebraska
The multimillion-dollar solar farm consisted of over 14,000 solar panels that had been put into operation in 2019. The system’s 25-year expected lifetime was cut to less than 4 years, leaving a toxic mess to clean up. It begs the questions of whether it makes sense to depend on such weather-vulnerable power plants and how long will it take to clean up the toxic mess left behind.

https://www.instituteforenergyresear...m-in-nebraska/

Maybe try hiding your sources a little instead of directly linking to a known fossil fuel propaganda org led and sponsored by fossil fuel industry execs?

https://www.influencewatch.org/non-profit/institute-for-energy-research/

[David70]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

You are the one who brought up pricing, not me, lol. I ran the numbers not with you in mind. 10% down-payment is somewhat standard for auto financing.

I see no benefits of EV. Range restricted, range recovery restricted, too heavy for good dynamics. And as I originally said, EV fan boys point to 0 - 60 times, which is the predictable retort.

Sorry, you're wrong. Someone said not everyone can afford a one for $50k-$70 and I pointed out a Tesla 3, after fed tax credit starts at $34k. I also pointed out many people should never buy a new car. You then decided to prove it's not the cheapest form of transportation (nobody said it was ).

You are welcome to "see" whatever you want. You have yet to point out what I said about them that is wrong. They work very well for part of the population and the downsides continue to get smaller when compared to ICE's (price/range/charging times/number of chargers).

[Car-Addicted]

Originally Posted by FrankMstein

Wind turbines already generate power economically. Improvements would be terrific, but they aren't necessary to make wind and solar work cheaply in the real world.

There are significant head winds (sorry couldn't resist) to wind power

Siemens Energy shares plunge more than 37% as wind turbine worries deepen
Siemens Energy estimates that component failures may be occurring in between 15% and 30% of its installed fleet of turbines, but Green noted that there is still a “slight question mark about where that liability ends.”

The problem is that bad choices are being made in false argument of climate change and the free market is being ignored.

[Car-Addicted]

Originally Posted by fcman

Maybe try hiding your sources a little instead of directly linking to a known fossil fuel propaganda org led and sponsored by fossil fuel industry execs?

Please provide proof that the article is incorrect?

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by David70

Added $15k Full Self Driving option to the Tesla to make sure we weren't buying a stripped Tesla. You found color, wheels and $15k self driving to even things out.

0-60 in the Accord/Camry is what? Looking for cheap transportation and a Tesla is too slow.

Yes a base Accord is cheaper than a base Tesla Model 3. I never said it wasn't. Post I replied to said not everyone can afford a $50k-$70k and I said many people should never buy a new car but there are EV's far less than $50k, $48k is the average price of cars sold so yes a significant part of the population is buying cars that cost more than this.

Are people really buying cars more than $48k? That's the point I made previously in another reply. Average or mean numbers really don't portray the proper picture everyone thinks it does with this discussion. The mode or where the concentration of actual number of purchases of cars at a particular price point is more accurate as to what the general population is buying. Because very expensive cars can skew the numbers as well as very inexpensive numbers. In addition, the sampling size also makes a difference.

[David70]

Originally Posted by zx10guy

Are people really buying cars more than $48k? That's the point I made previously in another reply.

The answer is obviously yes.

Average or mean numbers really don't portray the proper picture everyone thinks it does with this discussion. The mode or where the concentration of actual number of purchases of cars at a particular price point is more accurate as to what the general population is buying. Because very expensive cars can skew the numbers as well as very inexpensive numbers. In addition, the sampling size also makes a difference.

Your argument is the bulk of buyers are buying something for less? The answer is likely also yes. So I agree with you.

EV's aren't the cheapest form of transportation, the fact that BMW exists shows there is a lot of people that are buying for some other reason than the best value. I would also argue that new vehicles of any type also aren't the cheapest form of transportation.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by David70

Sorry, you're wrong. Someone said not everyone can afford a one for $50k-$70 and I pointed out a Tesla 3, after fed tax credit starts at $34k. I also pointed out many people should never buy a new car. You then decided to prove it's not the cheapest form of transportation (nobody said it was ).

You are welcome to "see" whatever you want. You have yet to point out what I said about them that is wrong. They work very well for part of the population and the downsides continue to get smaller when compared to ICE's (price/range/charging times/number of chargers).

I said and backed up my position with numbers that even a $34K Model 3 is not a great choice. There are better personal vehicle transportation choices than the Model 3. Again, you brought up the price parity to ICE of the Government subsidized Model 3. I don't see the parity.

[David70]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I said and backed up my position with numbers that even a $34K Model 3 is not a great choice. There are better personal vehicle transportation choices than the Model 3. Again, you brought up the price parity to ICE of the Government subsidized Model 3. I don't see the parity.

No I never said there was price parity to an ICE. Everything I posted is above, just point out where I said it?

You tried to prove that a Camry and Accord are a better value. Nothing more.

[fcman]

Originally Posted by Car-Addicted

Please provide proof that the article is incorrect?

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

I never said the article was incorrect, your conclusion of the article is incorrect, because you fell for the propaganda. The funny thing about facts and statistics is they look like proof to people who don’t understand them.

[David70]

Originally Posted by Car-Addicted

There are significant head winds (sorry couldn't resist) to wind power

Siemens Energy shares plunge more than 37% as wind turbine worries deepen
Siemens Energy estimates that component failures may be occurring in between 15% and 30% of its installed fleet of turbines, but Green noted that there is still a “slight question mark about where that liability ends.”

The problem is that bad choices are being made in false argument of climate change and the free market is being ignored.

Link doesn't work for me but I don't see this proving wind power has a problem, instead Siemens has a component failure problem. No idea if this is a large problem for them or not.

Renewables continue to go up, coal continues to go down, renewables now larger than coal. I think this is a good thing.
https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/...-in-the-us.php

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by fcman

Damn how old are you? Lol, at your age I would expect you to have some accomplishments to be proud about rather than having to rely on cheap speed built for the lowest common denominator

Lol. The "lowest common denominator" is someone who buys a Tesla Plaid or Model 3P and can mash the go pedal to the floor and think they can drive fast.

[fcman]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Lol. The "lowest common denominator" is someone who buys a Tesla Plaid or Model 3P and can mash the go pedal to the floor and think they can drive fast.

Agreed, it takes no skill to drive fast in an electric car or a bike, they are very similar in that way and the people they appeal to, just in different tax brackets. Hence "lowest common denominator"

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by David70

No I never said there was price parity to an ICE. Everything I posted is above, just point out where I said it?

You tried to prove that a Camry and Accord are a better value. Nothing more.

"Largest hurdle right now is the initial cost but the differential between an ICE and EV keeps getting smaller."

[Car-Addicted]

Originally Posted by fcman

The funny thing about facts and statistics is they look like proof to people who don’t understand them.

Opps:
Only about 10% of panels in the US are recycled—it isn’t mandated by federal regulations, and recycling the devices is currently much more expensive than just discarding them. But the materials in solar panels coming offline each year could be worth an estimated $2 billion by 2050. New efforts, including one approach from a French startup called ROSI, are trying to recapture these valuable materials, especially silver and silicon, to make recycling the panels more financially viable.
Expanding solar-power production is key to reducing emissions worldwide. Globally, solar panels produced 720 terawatt-hours of energy in 2019, accounting for around 3% of the world’s electricity generation. And it took about 46 million metric tons of solar panels to do it.

About 8 million metric tons of decommissioned solar panels could accumulate globally by 2030. By 2050, that number could reach 80 million.

https://www.technologyreview.com/202...els-recycling/

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by fcman

Agreed, it takes no skill to drive fast in an electric car or a bike, they are very similar in that way and the people they appeal to, just in different tax brackets. Hence "lowest common denominator"

You should stop now. You have no idea what is involved with riding a motorcycle.

[fcman]

Originally Posted by Car-Addicted

Opps:
Only about 10% of panels in the US are recycled—it isn’t mandated by federal regulations, and recycling the devices is currently much more expensive than just discarding them. But the materials in solar panels coming offline each year could be worth an estimated $2 billion by 2050. New efforts, including one approach from a French startup called ROSI, are trying to recapture these valuable materials, especially silver and silicon, to make recycling the panels more financially viable.
Expanding solar-power production is key to reducing emissions worldwide. Globally, solar panels produced 720 terawatt-hours of energy in 2019, accounting for around 3% of the world’s electricity generation. And it took about 46 million metric tons of solar panels to do it.

About 8 million metric tons of decommissioned solar panels could accumulate globally by 2030. By 2050, that number could reach 80 million.

https://www.technologyreview.com/202...els-recycling/

Again, yes you can read. Unfortunately you still seem unable to understand the conclusion from this article

[David70]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I said and backed up my position with numbers that even a $34K Model 3 is not a great choice. There are better personal vehicle transportation choices than the Model 3. Again, you brought up the price parity to ICE of the Government subsidized Model 3. I don't see the parity.

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

"Largest hurdle right now is the initial cost but the differential between an ICE and EV keeps getting smaller."

Differential getting smaller is not the same as price parity. I don't see why you used this quote to prove your point.

Parity -
1. the state or condition of being equal, especially regarding status or pay.

[fcman]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

You should stop now. You have no idea what is involved with riding a motorcycle.

I grew up on bikes lol. Emphasis on "grew up". Even my sister rode/still rides

[Car-Addicted]

Originally Posted by fcman

Again, yes you can read. Unfortunately you still seem unable to understand the conclusion from this article

You can attempt to insult me all you wish but the facts are the conclusion of the MIT article is:

The total amount of global e-waste could hit 120 million metric tons annually by 2050, according to a UN report.
“All technology has an end of life,” Heath says, “and you have to manage these technologies at that point.”
Note: This story previously stated that ROSI recovers PV-grade silicon. It has been corrected to note that additional processing would be required to purify the recovered silicon to PV-grade.

[fcman]

Originally Posted by Car-Addicted

You can attempt to insult me all you wish but the facts are the conclusion of the MIT article is:

The total amount of global e-waste could hit 120 million metric tons annually by 2050, according to a UN report.
“All technology has an end of life,” Heath says, “and you have to manage these technologies at that point.”
Note: This story previously stated that ROSI recovers PV-grade silicon. It has been corrected to note that additional processing would be required to purify the recovered silicon to PV-grade.

Ok, and that has what to do with the efficiency and viability of renewables?

[Car-Addicted]