[Esteban]

Originally Posted by Jarrod

I think the DCT in my 335is is brilliant. It's the primary reason I chose it over a 335i in fact. First time I ever drove one I immediately "got it".

Is it perfect? Nope, it feels a bit unsure of itself in traffic. But after several months of driving it I feel I've more or less mastered getting around its quirks. And it more than makes up for those quirks when you've got open road in front of you. It is quite literally a kick in the pants. I love it. I don't miss the manual. I don't miss (?) an 8-speed econo-TC. I just enjoy it for what it is - a fantastic sport transmission that really shines above 3500 RPM. If you drive it where it likes to live, it will reward you. If you don't, welp, then you should have bought the econo-TC.

Yeah, I love mine as well. First time I drove it I knew I had to have it. Not perfect and yes it's quirky; part of it's charm imo. Agree that it takes some mastering.

Have heard quite a few unhappy 1er owners complain about their DCTs. Not all of them have issues, though. Wish they all enjoyed it and experienced it the way I have.

[NoImDirtyDan]

Originally Posted by SteveW928

Fair point.

Hmm, but then what's the point of BMW? Just get a Honda? Branding has to be a *bit* more than just a slogan.

I disagree here. I admit, I don't know car companies well, aside from being a long-time car enthusiast.

However, I do know Apple didn't get to be the most valuable company on the planet with a 'business is business' attitude. The 'new' Apple does seem to be taking an approach somewhat like you're describing here about BMW. If they don't course correct, they won't be the most valuable company for long. I'd predict the same for BMW if that's really their new 'business' strategy.

This seems to be a pretty close parallel with Apple and the creative/pro market debacle. Same argument there... that Apple's Pro users are a teeny-tiny percentage of the whole. Not really worth focusing on (or producing specific products for). But, that's bean-counter thinking. They are much more important to the brand than the pie-chart indicates.

My hunch is that it would be the same for BMW. Without the racing; without the enthusiasts, they become just another car company. And, they are too expensive to be just another car company. All those people buying them because of the badge, are vicariously buying into the image the enthusiasts built.

I see where you are coming from but putting aside enthusiasts for cars, even technology in general, It's a symbol of status to the average person. Why spend that much money on a car if it's just a car to you? A Honda is a better bang for your buck, yes (generally). But we live in a world where bigger is better and you buy what you can barley afford (again generalizing). Social status is extremely important in our society and people feel the need to always have latest and greatest. Apple and BMW have one major thing in common IMO and that's making small changes and selling it as a major upgrade. iPhone 6S to a 7. Pre LCI to an LCI. Every time I read about what's new in the new iPhone I shake my head and say Apple made another xxx Million on a new camera. Every time LCI models come out all I read is disappointment from our fellow enthusiasts because it's LED tails and a new production color. But there's always that "pressure" to have the next best thing on the market.

I live in LA so I am extremely aware of the social status thing. People out here (not everyone) find anything below them irrelevant and praise anything above them.

Yes, we as enthusiasts built and created what BMW is known for today. However, it's not about being fast anymore, something we all love. It's about being efficient, comfortable, and safe. While maintaining your social status of course.

It's unfortunate but as someone said earlier they are following the trends rather than creating them. Apple started a trend, however, other phones are now excelling and all Apple does is play catch up. BMW started a revolution with the E30 M3.

Now a days the technology is there, the power is there. 400HP cars are normal now. How fast does a car really need to be for everyday driving? You want a perfected DCT get a Porsche. (With all the MSD changes they aren't going to be that much more expensive) Why would BMW invest in something that's been done AND is slowly becoming obsolete.

That's why I say business is business because as a company they're going to do whatever it takes to maximize profits and sales. And with that they have to adapt to the needs and wants of everybody, not just a small percentage (us).

Please understand I am not targeting anyone specific, just my opinion based on my experiences.

[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by Powerslide

Like I said - now that you've explained it your comments make sense - all that was necessary was you confirming that you meant your comments as limited to your particular model/experience rather than the broad-sweeping statements you made before. People make broad sweeping generalizations all the time even though their own experience is limited to a very small subset of those generalizations. Therefore, the mere fact you mentioned that you have a 135i neither ruled in nor ruled out whether your original intention was global to all BMW DCT applications on the broad end of the spectrum - or alternatively- to just your own narrow experience (or the somewhat broader experience of 135i owners).

I'll say it again to be clear - not trying to pick a fight - but just trying to explain the source of the question of how broadly you intended to say how poor of a job BMW did on the DCT. However - your last few posts have now answered that question, so thanks for the clarification and better luck on your next transmission (sincerely - no sarcasm intended).

It's unfortunate I didn't get into the market for a 135i sooner. Had I been in the market sooner, I would have more choices with respect to available inventory to get a black 135i with a 6MT. And all my griping and whining about the DCT wouldn't even happen because I wouldn't be in this situation. I would have been able to continue my tradition of owning manual trans cars as my only automatic was my first car about 30 years ago.

Since my recent attempt to find a solution to this problem with flashing my car with a Dinan S2 tune, I'm starting to actually enjoy driving my car....as long as I don't turn the A/C on...sigh.

But thanks for getting why I'm coming off the way I am about BMW DCTs.

[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by Esteban

Yeah, I love mine as well. First time I drove it I knew I had to have it. Not perfect and yes it's quirky; part of it's charm imo. Agree that it takes some mastering.

Have heard quite a few unhappy 1er owners complain about their DCTs. Not all of them have issues, though. Wish they all enjoyed it and experienced it the way I have.

Yes, not all DCTs in the 135i's have problems. It's good you're providing a counter balance to my criticisms. But for me, it just makes me a bit more saltier that the product does work for other people. Why hasn't BMW spent time figuring out why we're the special ones and to come up with a fix? It just seems that they threw out one fix but then said, screw it if people are still having problems because we're only dealing with 4 model years of cars with this trans compared to the overall cars in total...not significant enough for us to care to keep applying resources to find and fix the problem.

[AntDX316]

The real objective is what gives the best lap times. The bonus is having a superior method and it being more reliable. It should become a no-brainer. The amount of kick feel should be put in the same perspective as the louder the vehicle is the better but that is not true. You guys should evolve and not live in the past too much. Before Call of Duty made it into consoles, the devs were talking about removing dedicated servers which they did. Us PC people were complaining but look how popular and better it is that way but not really because I prefer to see a server list like ArmA so that might not be a good example.

[AntDX316]

I think performance wise it's worse than the F12 successor but imo the 599 GTO is the best car character ever made.

There is like no sound here but it definitely out performs everything than the Ferraris?

[Aus335iguy]

Originally Posted by zx10guy

The DCT wasn't offered in the 1 series with the N54. Only the N55. The problems I'm complaining about are not due to torque modulation, smoothness in delivering the power. For most of us with this problem, it's a problem of nothing. When you give gas and expect the car to go, but in return the car either just creeps along or doesn't move at all, you'll understand why I'm so vocal about my disdain for how BMW didn't provide an acceptable product. Again, there's nothing scarier than merging into an opening in traffic, the car moves but creeps along, then you realize the gap you had from that oncoming car in the lane you're merging into is gone, and you're staring at a face full of car grill.

And I'm not even talking about the situation when you give gas, and the car just sits there and doesn't move at all for a solid 2 to 3 seconds or the situation when the idle is bouncing and during the downshift from 2 to 1 the trans engages with the 1st gear downshift causing the car to leap forward even though your foot is on the brakes.

I think if anyone ever experiences any of these situations, you'd be as salty as I am now.

My car was doing this until i flashed the IS software and got better again when I replaced my coils plugs and did a walnut blast. I then flashed mhd again and I'm fairly certain it was a combination of all these things that fixed the problem for me ... good luck!

[IS3andME]

Originally Posted by SteveW928

Just watch the videos someone posted several pages back with the Corvette on the track, or the guy driving that tuned Cadillac. The problem is obvious. (As much as I complain about my Jetta's DSG, it's WAY better than those!)

If you are referring to the vids on page 8, that was a 2017 Camaro ZL1 with the General Motors- Ford co-developed 10 speed auto.

The tuned Cadillac ATS-V is using the GM 8L90 automatic, which is also used in the Corvette Z06 and regular Corvettes as well. Since this auto is used in trucks as well as sports cars, and the Cadillac, it could be a situation of programming the automatic. I wouldn't know. Again, both are automatics, not the American manuals that the BMW rep had mentioned.

[Powerslide]

Originally Posted by zx10guy

It's unfortunate I didn't get into the market for a 135i sooner. Had I been in the market sooner, I would have more choices with respect to available inventory to get a black 135i with a 6MT. And all my griping and whining about the DCT wouldn't even happen because I wouldn't be in this situation. I would have been able to continue my tradition of owning manual trans cars as my only automatic was my first car about 30 years ago.

Since my recent attempt to find a solution to this problem with flashing my car with a Dinan S2 tune, I'm starting to actually enjoy driving my car....as long as I don't turn the A/C on...sigh.

But thanks for getting why I'm coming off the way I am about BMW DCTs.

No prob! Glad to hear the situation has at least gotten better - hopefully you'll find a solution as to the AC soon.

[rsyed07]

Originally Posted by zx10guy

I don't know but the topic is BMW's implementation. I didn't say another company's DCT implementation was better. Just said how BMW released a product to the public with the problems the DCT has is just shameful. I get others haven't experienced the problems I or others that have the problems I noted above. But for those that haven't experienced the problems, it can get downright dangerous. I've learned to work around the problems when they do crop up. But I won't let my wife drive my car because if you don't expect the problem nor have experienced it, it'll lead to a high probability of a crash.

There are plenty of us on this board that have complained about the problems and sought various remedies. One person posted they just bought a 135is and is in the middle of trying to get the dealer/BMW to buy back the car due to the throttle issues.

The DCT is great if you're in a track situation where speeds don't drop below 20 MPH. But most of these cars don't live 100% on the track. BMW should have done their homework and worked on the transmission's behavior outside of the track especially in stop and go traffic. You won't understand when you're creeping along in stop and go traffic, hit the gas, and get 2 to 3 seconds of dead pedal with no movement from the car. Or when there is an opening where you're trying to merge into traffic, you hit the gas, the car creeps into the opening and the spacing you had now becomes you staring a the grill of the car almost smashing into you. None of what I've described are exaggerations and those that have this problem will 100% backup what I've said. And I haven't even gone into the car jumping forward with my foot on the brake which only some people with the DCT problems have experienced. I have a friend who is a BMW tech at the dealership I go to get my car serviced. He told me he finally got a chance to experience and understand the complaints I had about the DCT when he was doing a CPO check out of a 135i with a DCT. And said it's totally unacceptable for a car to drive like that.

Due to when I bought my car and my desire to buy new, I was stuck with getting an auto/DCT. But since I got stuck with an auto, I would have preferred to have the previous ZF over this DCT any day.

Uhh that's odd. I have the same DCT gearbox in my 335is and it does not lurch in stop and go and there isn't really a delay when stepping on it. Sometimes maybe a fraction of a second delay if its in D mode. But I drive it 95% in M mode which is how its supposed to be driven. I think it just could be the previous owner of the car. DCTs aren't like regular autos and most likely the PO drove it like it was one thus ruining the experience for the next owner. It's the same debate as to why a lot of N54's consume oil and others don't. Breaking in the the car's engine/transmission properly matters when new.

Does DCT take time getting used to? Yes. Similar to a manual, throttle modulation from stops is key. Punch it and its like dumping the clutch, gradually increase the gas as if it was a manual and you're taking off from 1st gear takes care of a lot of the "quirkyness" people complain about in stop and go traffic situations.

[GeeRam]

Originally Posted by zx10guy

But the fact you all with M cars and DCT say the DCT has been a dream to experience/drive, tells me BMW knows how to properly code the software to behave properly at low speeds, low gear, and with the A/C on.

Like I said, I owned my 135i DCT from new, and for almost 6 years, and I live in London, so probably spent 70% of my ownership crawling around at sub 25mph speeds, and as far as I'm concerned there was no software issues with mine, as I said, I thought it was brilliant, at all speeds.

Only complaint I had was with the idiot Engineer that thought it would be a good idea to keep kick-down activated when in manual mode
But, as that was only an issue on a track, and not the road, it was a point of engineering principle with me more than anything.

While I understand your (and others) frustration, but the fact that this isn't an issue with every single car (and I know of no other DCT 135i owner in the UK that has experienced the issue you describe) means it isn't a design fault surely, other wise they'd all be the same.
Some cars just work, and some err, just don't, however, I would expect them to make one that doesn't, do so.

[RACEM4TE]

Originally Posted by JNoSol

Will have to agree. PDK is simply perfect and what other DCT strive to be.

Ferrari DCT > PDK

[GeeRam]

Originally Posted by CSBM5

BMW has never even designed *any* DCT type transmission with an objective like Porsche's. Beancounters run the show at BMW and would never allow them to actually design it as in the TurboS above, M-car or not.

I don't think BMW have designed any of their DCT transmissions, only the software integration.
Aren't they all Getrag transmissions?
IIRC, the DCT unit in the E82 135i & E9* M3/335i was mechanically the same unit as the one Ferrari used in the California.

[IS3andME]

Originally Posted by GeeRam

I don't think BMW have designed any of their DCT transmissions, only the software integration.
Aren't they all Getrag transmissions?
IIRC, the DCT unit in the E82 135i & E9* M3/335i was mechanically the same unit as the one Ferrari used in the California.

Here is the link for Getrag. Go to Dual Clutch transmissions, and also click on Models---you will see Ferrari and BMW models listed.
http://www.getrag.com/en/products/po...tion_type=7234

[N & M]

We can huff and puff... but no one will care... in the end it is Auto for all. Personally I will miss the DCT, but feel there is no point in arguing as BMW will follow the logic of economies of scale and focus on the easier and more financialy viable solution.

[Jarrod]

Originally Posted by zx10guy

The problems I'm complaining about are not due to torque modulation, smoothness in delivering the power. For most of us with this problem, it's a problem of nothing. When you give gas and expect the car to go, but in return the car either just creeps along or doesn't move at all, you'll understand why I'm so vocal about my disdain for how BMW didn't provide an acceptable product.

First I'm hearing of it - I don't frequent the 1-series fora. Yes, I'd be pissed. That sounds dangerous.

[Esteban]

Originally Posted by Jarrod

First I'm hearing of it - I don't frequent the 1-series fora. Yes, I'd be pissed. That sounds dangerous.

Yeah, I feel for zx10guy and the other 1er owners who have these obvious safety issues. BMW shouldn't have dropped the ball like they did and left them out in the cold.

[SteveW928]

Originally Posted by ZeroSix

I see where you are coming from but putting aside enthusiasts for cars, even technology in general, It's a symbol of status to the average person.

Chicken and egg though... I think both Apple and BMW both hard-won their status symbol nature. And, I think they will both lose it if they don't focus on appropriate aspects of the brand.

Steve Jobs was about making user-experience job #1 and making excellent products... profits followed. For some stupid reason, it seems like a lot of business thinking has that bassackwards.

Originally Posted by ZeroSix

Social status is extremely important in our society and people feel the need to always have latest and greatest. Apple and BMW have one major thing in common IMO and that's making small changes and selling it as a major upgrade.

While I guess that's a sad commentary on the state of society... I think once you've achieved that status (by hard work) you generally just want to keep iterating a bit on perfection. New products are usually where the big innovation happens. That said, (and as much grief as I give Apple) a lot of the innovation is hidden on the chip-side. Not as aware of BMW in that regard.

Originally Posted by ZeroSix

It's unfortunate but as someone said earlier they are following the trends rather than creating them. Apple started a trend, however, other phones are now excelling and all Apple does is play catch up. BMW started a revolution with the E30 M3.

That's the sad thing though... while the phone was innovative (and Apple's big mainstream breakthrough product), that isn't really were much of the innovation happened. It was much earlier in terms of UX/UI innovation.
(Sorry, I was using this as a parallel... but maybe we've drifted too far off topic?)

Originally Posted by ZeroSix

Now a days the technology is there, the power is there. 400HP cars are normal now. How fast does a car really need to be for everyday driving?

Fair point. It is pretty amazing about the increase in power of the average car. But, again, to go back to the parallel, that's the same thing Apple now thinks about 'pro' users. Their MacBook Pros or iMacs are now thought to be powerful enough for the typical 'pro' user.

But, just like here, there are a segment of 'pro' users who are in a different league. They don't mean 'pro' as in... use it to make a living, but 'pro' in a sense of what the machine is capable of. I'm guessing it's the same argument here.

Originally Posted by ZeroSix

That's why I say business is business because as a company they're going to do whatever it takes to maximize profits and sales. And with that they have to adapt to the needs and wants of everybody, not just a small percentage (us).

Ahh, see, this is where I disagree again. Maximizing profits and sales *shouldn't* be the ultimate goal. Making the best products and best solving their client-base's wants/needs should be. Profits and sales follow.

And, that's the same argument going on about Apple right now. I just point out (as I did earlier) that Apple didn't get where they are by maximizing profits and sales.

[heart_doctor]

Originally Posted by N & M

We can huff and puff... but no one will care... in the end it is Auto for all. Personally I will miss the DCT, but feel there is no point in arguing as BMW will follow the logic of economies of scale and focus on the easier and more financialy viable solution.

I disagree. If people stop buying their performance cars they will listen. I personally wouldn't buy a Performace car with a traditional automatic..... either DCT or 6MT for me. My next car may be a mustang or corvette .... don't see them changing anything anytime soon.

[pukicabuki]

It's sad when you can see how blatantly ignorant an executive at this level is. Are the BMW engineers too lazy to do even a small amount of research? Or even shop around to see what suppliers can produce a strong, yet smooth, manual transmission?

The Getrag V160 used in the MkIV Supra in the 90s was light years ahead of any BMW manual transmission I've ever driven. It's precise, smooth and incredibly strong. So strong that nothing other than a strong clutch disc is required for 1000+hp and some serious abuse.

What they said doesn't exist, already does. They're either too lazy to go find it or being dishonest in their efforts to find the solution. My guess is the latter. It's cheaper and easy to standardize with a single transmission option, both from a cost perspective as well as an engineering one.

[Vigilante375]

The article states that a manual is at it's limits at 450 HP and ~440 ft lbs. Ummm...then how the hell are other cars able to push 600+ so easily?

Sounds fishy to me. Like they are wanting to cut down on cost's and keep that profit margin up even more.

They can spend millions of dollars on research for stupid things like how the battery system works in a BMW (where you have to program it to the car so it'll "last" longer) or a electronic sensor to tell you what level you oil is at (instead of putting in a dip stick). But they can't do the research for beefing up their DCT or manual transmission? BMW is about to be the ultimate driving machine to the regular driving machine.

[N & M]

Originally Posted by heart_doctor

I disagree. If people stop buying their performance cars they will listen. I personally wouldn't buy a Performace car with a traditional automatic..... either DCT or 6MT for me. My next car may be a mustang or corvette .... don't see them changing anything anytime soon.

Yes, in theory that will work, however reality is most likely to follow BMW's view that most customers will not perceive a value or advantage to DCT or manuals and continue to buy cars equipped with auto transmissions.

There are many historical cases where the best invention goes extinct due to market forces not technical merit.