[cn555ic]

Wow this is actually great toilet bowl reading material...Love it...I will take my iphone into the crapper instead of newspaper...

[R1000K3]

Originally Posted by cn555ic

Wow this is actually great toilet bowl reading material...Love it...I will take my iphone into the crapper instead of newspaper...

+1, we could also print selected posts and use as toilet paper

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

I'll defend any tune where I see fit and I can tell you this whole thing about, "well why does BMS allow their tune to be modified, and why does BMS allow the ability to run meth without a fail safe, and blah blah".

These so called problems people have, are what makes these cars get to where they are today, finding limits, finding power, finding new boundaries, and learning more about the car.

BMS just like Procede and I know other tunes, has explicit warnings about using a tune. That includes default maps.

There is a reason Both Jb3 and Procede come with low boost base maps.

Like I said, just sticking with base maps both companies have a warning, they are not responsible for damages blah blah warranties explicit blah blah...

This is your warning people......

At no point did Terry Shiv or any other tuner mention \18 + PSI with meth is the SAFEST BULLETPROOF WAY to run your car... the end user knows what they are doing and if they dont at that point, they should sell their mods and go buy a toyota corolla.

If they want to play in playground with all the little kids they can stay stock and drink their apple juice with everyone else.

Pushing blame on a tuning company is not right when they provide explicit instructions in writing of the dangers; leaving the end user with full responsibility.

I know of actual tuners that have dyno tuned cars as so called professionals, and blown up cars on the dyno. Know what happens? Nothing.... they rebuild and suck it up.

No tuner out there is going to put a guarantee on anything like that.

Sevak knew the potential dangers, and I'm sure he didnt see it coming this early, especially when people have gone past his boost levels, But sometimes sh*t happens.

.... No tuner is responsible. /Discussion

Only discussion thereafter is what tuners can do to make the tunes "better".

However, this thread is so far off topic at this point.... I dont even know what everyone is arguing about.

[Belarus]

Hopefully it helps to lighten the mood of this thread and the facts of what actually happened are posted by Sevak....

[cn555ic]

Gone Fishing!

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by Mark313

So because the JB3 can't do it, why do you slander the procede by saying that it doesn't do it either? Just because shiv protects his tune so you can't copy it doesn't mean it doesn't do it. He's just protecting his tune from hacks like you so you can't reverse engineer it. I might be crazy but I'm starting to think you looked at those procede logs running 18+ psi and no ignition correction not knowing shiv hid it in the logs so because you thought the procede doing it was safe, you decided to do it and blew up an engine.

I don't personally do any tuning or product development but that bit about copying the procede is and its "hidden timing retard" is pretty ridiculous even to die-hard procede fans. One can monitor sustained timing in the logging software and it is what it is. And if anyone cared to reverse engineer it they would just put a scope on the I/O. Hopefully someone soon can do just that with existing firmware and expose this hidden timing retard myth for what it really is.

Also it's funny that N54 owners think they are entitled to run 18-19psi on pump gas and the motor should last forever that way. Sevak had a good run and with better attention to detail and the safeties may have gone quite a bit longer. But you push things to the limit and you're taking those risks. If you want to believe an invisible timing retard is going to keep you safe by all means turn off your safety systems and crank your boost up to 18-19psi on pump gas. I won't stop you. I seem to post this in almost every response, that the point of the OP was a warning posted by BMS, but as its plain to see it has spiralled into a marketing campaign.

Mike

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by kenneth

Mike, how does the JB3 failsafe work (when not disabled of course)?

The duty cycle failsafe prevents you at a hardware level from raising your boost above around 16psi (standard production JB3 board that is sold). Many go to an 18ohm to raise that limit to around 17-18psi. And some who want less taper go to 15ohm. Only 2-3 guys have tried 12ohm that I'm aware of. (I run a 18ohm board for reference and 16.5 - 17.0 PSI on meth)

So that first failsafe was disabled meaning the boost can go as high as the safety limit set in the software. In this case that was set at 19.00 psi. And for some reason the meth safety was disabled during logging.

Mike

[cn555ic]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

The duty cycle failsafe prevents you at a hardware level from raising your boost above around 16psi (standard production JB3 board that is sold). Many go to an 18ohm to raise that limit to around 17-18psi. And some who want less taper go to 15ohm. Only 2-3 guys have tried 12ohm that I'm aware of. (I run a 18ohm board for reference and 16.5 - 17.0 PSI on meth)

So that first failsafe was disabled meaning the boost can go as high as the safety limit set in the software. In this case that was set at 19.00 psi. And for some reason the meth safety was disabled during logging.

Mike

I dont understand...Since Terry has spoken or via email with Sevak...Whats the story with all this...Cant you guys ask him to clarify what the hell happened...it would be in your best interest and BMS for him to come and bring some light into the matter of his engine failure...Contact him ASAP as this thread is blowing up in your faces and you need to mend the wounds

[DefactoM6]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

I don't personally do any tuning or product development but that bit about copying the procede is and its "hidden timing retard" is pretty ridiculous even to die-hard procede fans. One can monitor sustained timing in the logging software and it is what it is. And if anyone cared to reverse engineer it they would just put a scope on the I/O. Hopefully someone soon can do just that with existing firmware and expose this hidden timing retard myth for what it really is.
Mike

If this is such a myth, why are you guys bothering to copy it on your upcoming JB3 Pro/JB4/w/e you're calling the upgrade over G4? If the existing methods were the absolute best that anyone could manage, why waste the time?

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by onesuperboi

I guess it's a bad idea give the users the ability to modify the board rather than just the settings...

The procede for example doesn't have a hardware safety. Go ahead and set your software limit to 20psi and don't connect a hardware safety and then spray meth on it. You'll get 20psi. The real issue is people need to understand the risks they take when they push the boundaries (which again was the point of the OP). Running 18-19psi on a fully modified car with meth is not the same as running 13-14psi otherwise stock.

Also it is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT to note that this level of boost is NOT POSSIBLE on a production JB3. The hardware won't allow it!

Mike

[techlogik]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

The duty cycle failsafe prevents you at a hardware level from raising your boost above around 16psi (standard production JB3 board that is sold). Many go to an 18ohm to raise that limit to around 17-18psi. And some who want less taper go to 15ohm. Only 2-3 guys have tried 12ohm that I'm aware of. (I run a 18ohm board for reference and 16.5 - 17.0 PSI on meth)

So that first failsafe was disabled meaning the boost can go as high as the safety limit set in the software. In this case that was set at 19.00 psi. And for some reason the meth safety was disabled during logging.

Mike

I always get a laugh about how the JB tune "functions". Resistor tuning at its best.



I will repeat this again from way back on the first page. Since when do people think that running meth is somehow a safe endeavor? It's not!

[cn555ic]

Originally Posted by techlogik

I always get a laugh about how the JB tune "functions". Resistor tuning at its best.



I will repeat this again from way back on the first page. Since when do people think that running meth is somehow a safe endeavor? It's not!

I honestly can say that the way Procede is set up with the meth, I feel very confident and safe about using it. The only thing not safe IMO is the fact the meth is highly flammable when using a very high meth/water. I can't speak for any other meth systems with corresponding tunes but

[Ilma]

Seems to me Mike/Terry is right about some pieces.

If you are running zero percent ignition correction on the Procede, then you are relying on the DME to react to knock just like the JB3.

If you have autotune on, it will react too, but I believe autotune takes the average amount of knock and compares it to your aggression target before introducing timing retard......so this is not as instantaneous of an adjustment.

I could be wrong, but that's my interpretation of my procede datalogs.

What I really don't understand in all of this is why the stock DME is not able to pull back enough timing to save the engine at these boost levels.

Seems like it just wasn't designed to react to these levels of boost and subsequent heat rise in the combustion chamber.

As Shiv/Calvin already mentioned, the DME seems to pull out 3-4 degrees of timing at a time and then listen for more knock.

If there is still knock, it drops again.

3-4 degress of retard at a time might work as a safety mechanism for stock boost levels, but it looks to me like it's not fast enough at these higher boost levels.

If it was, then even if your meth failed altogether, the DME would save the day.

But obviously not in these couple of cases.

[GGreek5]

Originally Posted by JPSlick

I'll defend any tune where I see fit and I can tell you this whole thing about, "well why does BMS allow their tune to be modified, and why does BMS allow the ability to run meth without a fail safe, and blah blah".

These so called problems people have, are what makes these cars get to where they are today, finding limits, finding power, finding new boundaries, and learning more about the car.

BMS just like Procede and I know other tunes, has explicit warnings about using a tune. That includes default maps.

There is a reason Both Jb3 and Procede come with low boost base maps.

Like I said, just sticking with base maps both companies have a warning, they are not responsible for damages blah blah warranties explicit blah blah...

This is your warning people......

At no point did Terry Shiv or any other tuner mention \18 + PSI with meth is the SAFEST BULLETPROOF WAY to run your car... the end user knows what they are doing and if they dont at that point, they should sell their mods and go buy a toyota corolla.

If they want to play in playground with all the little kids they can stay stock and drink their apple juice with everyone else.

Pushing blame on a tuning company is not right when they provide explicit instructions in writing of the dangers; leaving the end user with full responsibility.

I know of actual tuners that have dyno tuned cars as so called professionals, and blown up cars on the dyno. Know what happens? Nothing.... they rebuild and suck it up.

No tuner out there is going to put a guarantee on anything like that.

Sevak knew the potential dangers, and I'm sure he didnt see it coming this early, especially when people have gone past his boost levels, But sometimes sh*t happens.

.... No tuner is responsible. /Discussion

Only discussion thereafter is what tuners can do to make the tunes "better".

However, this thread is so far off topic at this point.... I dont even know what everyone is arguing about.

+ 1 million. Pretty immature that people are pointing fingers at the tune. And its coming from people who are actually in the "tuning game". Alot of us like to push the limits of our cars, and blown motors are alot of times the result of this. We havent even really heard from Sevak yet.
Anyways, Sevak good luck with the rebuild bro.

[vasillalov]

Originally Posted by Ilma

What I really don't understand in all of this is why the stock DME is not able to pull back enough timing to save the engine at these boost levels.

Because the stock DME is seeing knock events which logically should not occur under stock conditions. With piggies, the DME has absolutely no idea how much boost you are running as it is being fooled by the tune. Therefore it would seem that knock events would simply be implausible unless there is a remapping of the DME.

...at least this is how I see it anyways...

[DefactoM6]

Originally Posted by vasillalov

Because the stock DME is seeing knock events which logically should not occur under stock conditions. With piggies, the DME has absolutely no idea how much boost you are running as it is being fooled by the tune. Therefore it would seem that knock events would simply be implausible unless there is a remapping of the DME.

...at least this is how I see it anyways...

Do you really think that GIAC changes the knock sensor thresholds and parameters? If so...well I have nothing to say, there's no point in trying to talk sense.

[alextremo]

Originally Posted by Ilma

Seems to me Mike/Terry is right about some pieces.

If you are running zero percent ignition correction on the Procede, then you are relying on the DME to react to knock just like the JB3.

If you have autotune on, it will react too, but I believe autotune takes the average amount of knock and compares it to your aggression target before introducing timing retard......so this is not as instantaneous of an adjustment.

I could be wrong, but that's my interpretation of my procede datalogs.

The difference being that if you are running 0 ignition correction on PROcede due to meth being used, when meth stops flowing the PROcede is able to immediately retard timing to deal with the changed conditions in addition (if not before) to what the ECU is doing. This is not an autotune feature, but a feature of the meth map switching capabilities of the PROcede and ability to control timing via CPS offsetting.

As I understand it the JB3 has a similar map switching safeguard, however it doesn't have the ability to control timing so it relies on the knock sensor to retard timing (and the reduction of boost) to change conditions to a more conservative level.

The goal of both methods is the same - reduce timing and boost to get to a safer operating environment for the engine. The argument is whether or not the JB3 method is effective and quick enough to prevent damage in these scenarios where the change in the environment is so drastic and quick (i.e. losing meth flow mid run)

[vasillalov]

Originally Posted by DefactoM6

Do you really think that GIAC changes the knock sensor thresholds and parameters? If so...well I have nothing to say, there's no point in trying to talk sense.

I don't know but I think I will ask GIAC because it is the right thing to do.

Vasil

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

As I mentioned god knows how many pages ago as things got off topic..

The current method of most failsafes is DECENT at best from any tune.

A true failsafe would cut FULL IGNITION Entirely. Apply in this case 0% Throttle Angle, and it would wait until you get off the gas pedal, finally reverting back to a extreme low boost map.

Sounds harsh but its called a fail-safe for a reason.

Only reason I know this is the best method is because A) its obvious (how else are you going to run into a detonation/pre ignition problem if there is no ignition), and B) its used on other methods of tuning with other cars.

[enrita]

Originally Posted by DefactoM6

Do you really think that GIAC changes the knock sensor thresholds and parameters? If so...well I have nothing to say, there's no point in trying to talk sense.

You missunderstood his post, giac maps new timing tables which basically means the dme is aware of the amount of boost pushed and can take the necessary measures to counter knock . Basically with jb3 the dme will back timings if knock occur but in relation to 8 psi, not 16+ psi. The result is too less timing beeing pulled.
Since V4 can read both can timings and knock sensor it can than proactively lower boost and back timings if knock sensor goes wild.

[dzenno]

Originally Posted by enrita

You missunderstood his post, giac maps new timing tables which basically means the dme is aware of the amount of boost pushed and can take the necessary measures to counter knock . Basically with jb3 the dme will back timings if knock occur but in relation to 8 psi, not 16+ psi. The result is too less timing beeing pulled.
Since V4 can read both can timings and knock sensor it can than proactively lower boost and back timings if knock sensor goes wild.

So you "know" that with GIAC's timing tables that in this case they'll drop timing "more" than 3-4 they typically do with 8psi stock tune?

[R1000K3]

20+ PSI FTW?

I have reasons to believe a proper tune, good supporting mods including meth and 98 octane RON pump gas (US 93 octane) can be used with high boost like 20 PSI. I’ve been running 20+ PSI now for some time and this includes more than a thousand WOT’s and a lot of real high speed runs on the Autobahn in Germany. Sevak’s failure came at lower boost than this and I don’t think he have hade the time and possibilities to run max boost (at a lower level) as much as I have done. The differences between our cars are mainly the following (me left, he right):

- Vishnu Autotune vs. JB3 with 12 ohm resistors
- M10 vs. M8
- Pure meth vs. some initial use of 80/20 meth/water

Our meth controllers are the same and we have used the same settings. The left combination has survived hard punishment but not the right. No one can for sure say that one or several of the parameters can be removed without problems on a 20+ PSI level.

The reason I believe (or rather is hoping) I can feel relatively safe still using 20+ PSI is that this is no more cylinder pressure than FB-IS and Hotrod182 have been operating with when they have pushed over 500 whp with NO2. 20 PSI creates a lot less cylinder pressure than they have been operating. The typhical power level for a N54 engine at 17 PSI with meth is about 400 whp. These 17 PSI represents 200 whp since the engine is about 200 hp at zero boost. In order to increase the whp by 100 hp from 400 to 500 whp the boost would need to be raised with about 50%, i.e. from 17 to 25+ PSI. This would create about the same cylinder pressure as a NO2 supported engine that produces about 500 whp.

If this approximation is correct, which I think it is, it is certainly not the boost at around 20 PSI that kills the engine, it is instead insufficient meth flow or the tune or a combination of these when running high boost.

Why am I making this analyze? The reason is to get an understanding if I need to reduce the boost from 20+ PSI, and it is not obvious to me this is needed based on above.

Lets hear to what the tuners and others comments are to these speculations