[xenon]

Originally Posted by atariboy

Forgive me if I am being stupid here but I thought that the engine management systems in cars recorded all 'blip's and inconsistencies and that all data about an engines perfomance could be down loaded in to a diagnostics computer.
I can getting really concerned about ordering a car with a 320i under the hood. I do have a 2 day test drive booked in for July in an E93 320i so I am going to try everything to recreate these problems you guys are having

Another very good point. When I read the data on my e46 325i all manner of stuff was included, along with "Inlet Cam position sensor - reading implausible" which led me to swap the inlet cam sensor (is there an M52 engine in the world that has not had a new cam sensor ??). You would have thought, as atariboy says, that this would be recorded. I guess the only explanation that it isn't is that the engine systems do not believe anything has gone wrong to record. Of course, this does not apply if the EML light was lit as the direct reason for that should definately be recorded.

[chrisbin]

Originally Posted by atariboy

I am going to try everything to recreate these problems you guys are having

...easier said than done....it would be a lot easier if the symptoms could be replicated on demand!! Certainly make sure you try the engine on light load - be delicate with that right foot - this is where hesitations etc often show up...you'll be lucky/unlucky to experience the shake or limp home though!!

In general, as has been said, the E93's extra weight will certainly blunt the performance so may well be a bit of a disappointment anyway...

[chrisbin]

Originally Posted by xenon

Another very good point. When I read the data on my e46 325i all manner of stuff was included, along with "Inlet Cam position sensor - reading implausible" which led me to swap the inlet cam sensor (is there an M52 engine in the world that has not had a new cam sensor ??). You would have thought, as atariboy says, that this would be recorded. I guess the only explanation that it isn't is that the engine systems do not believe anything has gone wrong to record. Of course, this does not apply if the EML light was lit as the direct reason for that should definately be recorded.

Yep, when warning lights have been displayed (not all the time) there have been fault codes recorded........however, that doesn't necessarily mean they know what to do to resolve....let alone on the occassions when no warning lights..........

[FieldingMellish]

Originally Posted by atariboy

Forgive me if I am being stupid here but I thought that the engine management systems in cars recorded all 'blip's and inconsistencies and that all data about an engines perfomance could be down loaded in to a diagnostics computer.
I can getting really concerned about ordering a car with a 320i under the hood. I do have a 2 day test drive booked in for July in an E93 320i so I am going to try everything to recreate these problems you guys are having

Well, these problems do not always manifest themselves when you 'try to recreate' them. thats' part of the problem, it's intermittent. So the engineers had my car all weekend and it was running fine, yet the very day I get it back from them it cuts out.

My advice would be to steer well clear of any 4 cylinder E9X petrol engine. Much as I prefer petrol to diesel, I would still say the 320d would be a better bet. Or do what I wish I had done and go up to the 325i, to get away from thsi terible engine.

[FieldingMellish]

Originally Posted by chrisbin

Yep, when warning lights have been displayed (not all the time) there have been fault codes recorded........however, that doesn't necessarily mean they know what to do to resolve....let alone on the occassions when no warning lights..........

Exactly. They found multiple fault codes on my car which led them to replace the EGR valve, which still did not solve the problem. You (by which I mean not you, Chris, but anyone reading here who has yet to join the ranks of the sufferering) have to understand, what they are doing is not locating the root cause of a problme and fixing it. Instead, they go through a series of measures which may or may not help, presumably in ascending order of cost to them. So they begin with a re-install of teh latest software, then if you still complain, replace a sensor or a valve or two, see if that helps etc. all the way up to replacing the ECU, which they are loathe to do because of expense, and which in any case is very much not guaranteed to fix it.

What really gets me angry is that the price of the smallest petrol engine in the 3 Series range, in the must-have M Sport spec, is about £25,000 and you get a rubbish engine for that. At these sorts of prices, every engine should be a beauty, you shouldn't have to buy a 3 litre.

When I was looking into buying a BMW, I was told in haughty terms by new car salesmen that big discounts had been done away with by BMW because "it was devaluing the brand". Well, nothing could devalue their precious brand like selling cars with piece of sh1t engines in them.

My car is like a boxer with a glass jaw, it has so many great features but is lacking in that one crucial respect.

These engines will, one day, be notorious. "Oh yeah, those old 4 cylinders in the E90? Phew boy, you wouldn't have wanted to get saddled with one of those pups!" But that will be in the future, when the mainstream press catches up to what we online users know now. While I was waiting my turn in Servicing yesterday, I was leafing through a promotional brochure full of glowing reports from Autocar etc. practically fellating BMW over their beautiful new Efficient Dynamics engines. Just shows what a bunch of muzzled, castrated puppies the press are, regurgitating BMW marketing bumf with virtually zero mediation or independent appraisals.

Again I say: GGGGRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

[atariboy]

Perhaps we should send the link to these posts to the motoring magazines and see what they think

[chrisbin]

Originally Posted by atariboy

Perhaps we should send the link to these posts to the motoring magazines and see what they think

EVO have been aware of this for a while...unfortunately its not really their thing and they "don't have the resources to follow up this sort of issue..."

However they are interested to hear of any developments....

What Car and Auto Express have also been made aware.....no response as yet.....(maybe they are run by BMW Customer Services...??? )

[freon warrior]

Oh dear............. My e93 320i vert (08) has cut out twice in the two weeks I have had it! Delivered it back to the sales department today. Service cente called and said they were going to upgrade the software! My own 30k+ money

[FieldingMellish]

Originally Posted by freon warrior

Oh dear............. My e93 320i vert (08) has cut out twice in the two weeks I have had it! Delivered it back to the sales department today. Service cente called and said they were going to upgrade the software! My own 30k+ money

Upgrade the software eh? How familiar! My advice is to reject teh car, pronto. Sounds like you are well within the tiny window of opportunity BMW allow, anyway you are certainly within your Consumer Rights to do so, surely. Get out of that car now, you may well regret it later if you don't.

[freon warrior]

Originally Posted by FieldingMellish

Upgrade the software eh? How familiar! My advice is to reject teh car, pronto. Sounds like you are well within the tiny window of opportunity BMW allow, anyway you are certainly within your Consumer Rights to do so, surely. Get out of that car now, you may well regret it later if you don't.

Blimey! Is it going to be that bad? How should I approach it then?

[xenon]

So much for my theory of it being fixed on later builds. Mine's still alright (touch wood) but I agree with FM, freon.

At this point in time you probably can't reject it per se because (assuming you didn't know all this stuff) it would appear on the face of it to be just a glitch which the dealer has agreed to fix. Furthermore, you have to give the dealer a reasonable opportunity to put things right before rejection. However, as FM says, time is "of the essence" so make sure that you get it in writing an acknowledgement of the problem and their proposed resolution, and make sure it is dated. Point out that you are notifying them of the problem well within a reasonable time-frame to subsequently reject the car if not resolved. Then, if problems persist you will have the supporting documentation to reject the car if, say, they haven't fixed it by the third attempt.

Just going up to them now and saying "I don't want this car, I want my money back" just because it cut-out a couple of times would not be just cause for rejection under the Sale of Goods Act as it does not make it materialy "unfit for purpose". It seems we know what's coming though, so you'll be able to reject if things go from bad to worse which seems likely.

[FieldingMellish]

Originally Posted by xenon

So much for my theory of it being fixed on later builds. Mine's still alright (touch wood) but I agree with FM, freon.

At this point in time you probably can't reject it per se because (assuming you didn't know all this stuff) it would appear on the face of it to be just a glitch which the dealer has agreed to fix. Furthermore, you have to give the dealer a reasonable opportunity to put things right before rejection. However, as FM says, time is "of the essence" so make sure that you get it in writing an acknowledgement of the problem and their proposed resolution, and make sure it is dated. Point out that you are notifying them of the problem well within a reasonable time-frame to subsequently reject the car if not resolved. Then, if problems persist you will have the supporting documentation to reject the car if, say, they haven't fixed it by the third attempt.

Just going up to them now and saying "I don't want this car, I want my money back" just because it cut-out a couple of times would not be just cause for rejection under the Sale of Goods Act as it does not make it materialy "unfit for purpose". It seems we know what's coming though, so you'll be able to reject if things go from bad to worse which seems likely.

I dunno, you may be right, Xenon. But if you buy a new (or even 'approved' used) car, and within such a short time it breaks down twice, I'd say a 'reasonable' man would agree you should be allowed to get your money back.

[xenon]

Yes, perhaps. If it were an issue that left you stranded at the side of the road twice I would certainly agree but this is not that serious on the face of it. Of course, we know that it probably IS serious but in terms of what is reasonable now the dealer is doing what a reasonable person would expect. If it goes wrong again after the dealer has 'fixed' it then rejection should be a formality. Until the dealer has at least had a chance to put things right I think rejection would be very difficult.

[freon warrior]

Originally Posted by xenon

Yes, perhaps. If it were an issue that left you stranded at the side of the road twice I would certainly agree but this is not that serious on the face of it. Of course, we know that it probably IS serious but in terms of what is reasonable now the dealer is doing what a reasonable person would expect. If it goes wrong again after the dealer has 'fixed' it then rejection should be a formality. Until the dealer has at least had a chance to put things right I think rejection would be very difficult.

I do agree with your comments xeon. At the end of the day the dealer has taken the car back 'to repair' and they did offer me a loan car straight away. I have spoken to customer services this morning and advised them of the issue I have with the car and will keep them informed of progress.

Who should I get the written confirmation from?

Thanks guys.

[xenon]

I would simply get the service advisor to acknowledge that you brought the car in on (date) for the problem of (problem). This was addressed by (work carried out).

[chrisbin]

Just a quickie.......Customer Services really are a complete and utter waste of space in my experience......so concentrate on the relationship that you have with your dealer....it will prove far more fruitful......

I'm still wound up after my latest conversation with CS yesterday..........

[freon warrior]

Ok, I have written to the Dealer Principal advising that I am prepared to reject the car if they fail to sort my issues out with the car. Copy to CS.

My sales contact agrees I have done the right thing making everyone aware of the problem.

Hope this makes sense, bit of a hurry going a way till Sunday.

Cheers

[chrisbin]

Well done and good luck!

[freon warrior]

Originally Posted by xenon

I would simply get the service advisor to acknowledge that you brought the car in on (date) for the problem of (problem). This was addressed by (work carried out).

Thanks

[xenon]

Good move. Keep us informed. Incidentally, what's the build-date of your E93?

[FieldingMellish]

I don't want to get into too much detail here.... my situation is ongoing and highly stressful. Lets just say that my local dealers are behaving like vampires. I will update at the end of today. Good luck to all fellow sufferers.

BMW NEED TO SORT THEIR ACT OUT.

[FieldingMellish]

Chris, I just sent you a PM.