[enrita]

Originally Posted by dzenno

So you "know" that with GIAC's timing tables that in this case they'll drop timing "more" than 3-4 they typically do with 8psi stock tune?

Giac is a reflash , not a piggy=dme full aware of whats going on and of course love R1000 posts. Your technical knowledge always blows me away :-)

[shifterboy45]

Originally Posted by scottp999

This discussion is better than anything on cable. I'm calculating how much it will cost to run the car on VP MS109 or Sunoco 260 GT Plus year round.

sound like a plan ...
cuz this whole methanol issue is like the tragedy of NOS in the early 70's

trying to add power at a hgher level, with no real control over the cylinder environment.. train wreck waiting to happen. 'specially with a car that is running a static 10.2:1 compression ratio

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by R1000K3

20+ PSI FTW?

I have reasons to believe a proper tune, good supporting mods including meth and 98 octane RON pump gas (US 93 octane) can be used with high boost like 20 PSI. I’ve been running 20+ PSI now for some time and this includes more than a thousand WOT’s and a lot of real high speed runs on the Autobahn in Germany. Sevak’s failure came at lower boost than this and I don’t think he have hade the time and possibilities to run max boost (at a lower level) as much as I have done. The differences between our cars are mainly the following (me left, he right):

- Vishnu Autotune vs. JB3 with 12 ohm resistors
- M10 vs. M8
- Pure meth vs. some initial use of 80/20 meth/water

Our meth controllers are the same and we have used the same settings. The left combination has survived hard punishment but not the right. No one can for sure say that one or several of the parameters can be removed without problems on a 20+ PSI level.

The reason I believe (or rather is hoping) I can feel relatively safe still using 20+ PSI is that this is no more cylinder pressure than FB-IS and Hotrod182 have been operating with when they have pushed over 500 whp with NO2. 20 PSI creates a lot less cylinder pressure than they have been operating. The typhical power level for a N54 engine at 17 PSI with meth is about 400 whp. These 17 PSI represents 200 whp since the engine is about 200 hp at zero boost. In order to increase the whp by 100 hp from 400 to 500 whp the boost would need to be raised with about 50%, i.e. from 17 to 25+ PSI. This would create about the same cylinder pressure as a NO2 supported engine that produces about 500 whp.

If this approximation is correct, which I think it is, it is certainly not the boost at around 20 PSI that kills the engine, it is instead insufficient meth flow or the tune or a combination of these when running high boost.

Why am I making this analyze? The reason is to get an understanding if I need to reduce the boost from 20+ PSI, and it is not obvious to me this is needed based on above.

Lets hear to what the tuners and others comments are to these speculations

I got two things...

One I agree, that the power being made is not the problem when its "tuned" correctly.

Two, the only detrimental effect of 20 PSI on stock turbo's is possibly some long term effects on the turbo's themselves in some fashion. At that point its a lot less to worry about in comparison to a blown motor, so pick your poison.

Three, have you any data (dynos, logs, etc) showing benefits of 20psi + on stock turbo's that says its making more power, and the increased power is worth the risk?

Curious of IAT's with meth/intercooler at that PSI level, as well as ignition?

[dzenno]

Originally Posted by enrita

Giac is a reflash , not a piggy=dme full aware of whats going on and of course love R1000 posts. Your technical knowledge always blows me away :-)

That doesn't answer my question. Answer this: on a stock tune we know that due to knock the DME, on stock boost, will lower timing 3-4 degrees typically...Are you saying that with a flash (any flash available for N54s specifically, including GIACs) that BECAUSE they see 17psi boost that their timing will drop more than it would have if stock boost was being run due to knock, when/if this is required?

[enrita]

Originally Posted by dzenno

That doesn't answer my question. Answer this: on a stock tune we know that due to knock the DME, on stock boost, will lower timing 3-4 degrees typically...Are you saying that with a flash (any flash available for N54s specifically, including GIACs) that BECAUSE they see 17psi boost that their timing will drop more than it would have if stock boost was being run due to knock, when/if this is required?

Of course, thats the whole point. Get a remap depending on boost.
Are you telling me you did not know the differences between a piggy and a flash?

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by dzenno

That doesn't answer my question. Answer this: on a stock tune we know that due to knock the DME, on stock boost, will lower timing 3-4 degrees typically...Are you saying that with a flash (any flash available for N54s specifically, including GIACs) that BECAUSE they see 17psi boost that their timing will drop more than it would have if stock boost was being run due to knock, when/if this is required?

Your wording is confusing....

A good flash, IDK the inner workings of GIAC, can "rewrite" the mapping of boost/power ignition and maybe fuel theoretically.

Again, whether which flashes do what I really dont know. But I assume if properly done it can remap everything accordingly.

So what that means again using arbitrary numbers (cause I cant see stock maps or flash maps)...

If a stock car runs 8 PSI at 15 degrees at 5000 RPM
A good flash might run 14-16 psi with 8 or 9 degree ignition at 5000 RPM

I think another question you might be asking is if it can reduce ignition more then 3-4 degrees and I think the question is it probably has the same limitations as stock hardware.... but if its starting at lower ignition, its theoretically that much safer.

In defense to Procede atleast, stock maps at 13 PSI have a 50 % ignition correction (IIRC)... So their "starting point" (if I understand correctly) for ignition would be 50% less of stock ignition maps.

So its technically another way of doing it.

I hope thats right...

[vase330]

I kind of agree with you. I think tuners should atleast make an effort to protect the kids from themselves.
As I said before...

[themyst]

Originally Posted by Ilma

Seems to me Mike/Terry is right about some pieces.

If you are running zero percent ignition correction on the Procede, then you are relying on the DME to react to knock just like the JB3.

If you have autotune on, it will react too, but I believe autotune takes the average amount of knock and compares it to your aggression target before introducing timing retard......so this is not as instantaneous of an adjustment.

I could be wrong, but that's my interpretation of my procede datalogs.

What I really don't understand in all of this is why the stock DME is not able to pull back enough timing to save the engine at these boost levels.

Seems like it just wasn't designed to react to these levels of boost and subsequent heat rise in the combustion chamber.

As Shiv/Calvin already mentioned, the DME seems to pull out 3-4 degrees of timing at a time and then listen for more knock.

If there is still knock, it drops again.

3-4 degress of retard at a time might work as a safety mechanism for stock boost levels, but it looks to me like it's not fast enough at these higher boost levels.

If it was, then even if your meth failed altogether, the DME would save the day.

But obviously not in these couple of cases.

Wrong. The procede is constantly monitoring the CAN knock reading for any instances where it can intervene before the DME does.

See the log below. This log is at 18.5 +/- psi, and if you look at Debug Byte 2 (autotune ignition correction) even though everything powerwise (boost, timing) looks fine, it is adding in very small amounts of IC to compensate for a possible KR event. The JB3 can't do this. Perhaps I am wrong, maybe Shiv or Adrian can chime in.

[enrita]

When i flashed stage 2+ the only thing they told me was log timings at 5600 rpm you should see 12 degrees ignition. Was spot on. Than all is good.

[R1000K3]

Originally Posted by JPSlick

I got two things...

One I agree, that the power being made is not the problem when its "tuned" correctly.

Two, the only detrimental effect of 20 PSI on stock turbo's is possibly some long term effects on the turbo's themselves in some fashion. At that point its a lot less to worry about in comparison to a blown motor, so pick your poison.

Three, have you any data (dynos, logs, etc) showing benefits of 20psi + on stock turbo's that says its making more power, and the increased power is worth the risk?

Curious of IAT's with meth/intercooler at that PSI level, as well as ignition?

Thanks for the engagement

No I have yet no dyno runs or RL-logs that proves 20+ PSI creates a lot more power. These are currently based on ass-dyno readings the strong impresson when a switch back and forth between 17.5 PSI and 20 PSI. 17.5 PSI is not fun anymore . This is what the senses report. But yes, data is needed and worth a lot more, and there is no reason to blow the engine if 20+ PSI is a significant risk.

[dzenno]

Originally Posted by enrita

Of course, thats the whole point. Get a remap depending on boost.
Are you telling me you did not know the differences between a piggy and a flash?

Where did I tell you that I don't know the differences between a piggy and a flash? Whatever...

I'm asking you if you know if the DME "behaviour" is changed after a reflash SO THAT it'll back timing down MORE than it would on a stock tune "in case of knock". I'm NOT talking about whether a flash remaps boost tables or timing tables or fuel maps. I know it does.

If a flash (insert GIAC here) "DID" do this (i'm not asking if it COULD, but if it DID) then in that case it'd be impossible to cause the same issue to happen with a flash. Same goes for any piggy with CPS offset such as procede. Since auto-tune reacts to knock by reducing timing it could reduce timing "on top of" to what a stock DME already reduces it by to save the motor....

[enrita]

Originally Posted by dzenno

Where did I tell you that I don't know the differences between a piggy and a flash? Whatever...

I'm asking you if you know if the DME "behaviour" is changed after a reflash SO THAT it'll back timing down MORE than it would on a stock tune "in case of knock". I'm NOT talking about whether a flash remaps boost tables or timing tables or fuel maps. I know it does.

If a flash (insert GIAC here) "DID" do this (i'm not asking if it COULD, but if it DID) then in that case it'd be impossible to cause the same issue to happen with a flash. Same goes for any piggy with CPS offset such as procede. Since auto-tune reacts to knock by reducing timing it could reduce timing "on top of" to what a stock DME already reduces it by to save the motor....

I have already answered this , its a reflash.

[dzenno]

Originally Posted by enrita

I have already answered this , its a reflash.

oh so its a reflash! I TOTALLY get it now...

[vase330]

So question is why are the guys in Sweden running stratopheric boost levels knowing how much they pay for a 335 over there? Maybe the have balls of steel.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by themyst

Wrong. The procede is constantly monitoring the CAN knock reading for any instances where it can intervene before the DME does.

See the log below. This log is at 18.5 +/- psi, and if you look at Debug Byte 2 (autotune ignition correction) even though everything powerwise (boost, timing) looks fine, it is adding in very small amounts of IC to compensate for a possible KR event. The JB3 can't do this. Perhaps I am wrong, maybe Shiv or Adrian can chime in.

You're running around at 20psi on 0% CPS there. When it works it's great but no guarantee the motor will last forever like that. Especially if you disable your meth failsafes. The way your autotuning works is the DME senses knock, the DME drops timing, the piggyback checks timing against what the maximum should be at (only at 10 times per second the maximum can logging rate), if lower the piggyback positions itself to be slightly less aggressive (over a window of several runs). If you were to hit major knock for some reason during that run, like something went wrong with the failsafe, etc, you'd be shopping for new pistons also.


Mike

[themyst]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

You're running around at 20psi on 0% CPS there. When it works it's great but no guarantee the motor will last forever like that. Especially if you disable your meth failsafes. The way your autotuning works is the DME senses knock, the DME drops timing, the piggyback checks timing against what the maximum should be at (only at 10 times per second the maximum can logging rate), if lower the piggyback positions itself to be slightly less aggressive (over a window of several runs). If you were to hit major knock for some reason during that run, like something went wrong with the failsafe, etc, you'd be shopping for new pistons also.


Mike

no that's not 20psi. if it was 20 it would be intersecting the black line.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by cn555ic

Contact him ASAP as this thread is blowing up in your faces and you need to mend the wounds

Actually this thread is progressing exactly how I figured it would.

Mike

[enrita]

I think the main difference is that we run high speed runs 50-250 kmh, while you US guys do 1/4 miles. The load you put on the engine in 4th and 5th is really high compaired to bursts in 2nd and 3rd.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by alextremo

The difference being that if you are running 0 ignition correction on PROcede due to meth being used, when meth stops flowing the PROcede is able to immediately retard timing to deal with the changed conditions in addition (if not before) to what the ECU is doing. This is not an autotune feature, but a feature of the meth map switching capabilities of the PROcede and ability to control timing via CPS offsetting.

As I understand it the JB3 has a similar map switching safeguard, however it doesn't have the ability to control timing so it relies on the knock sensor to retard timing (and the reduction of boost) to change conditions to a more conservative level.

The goal of both methods is the same - reduce timing and boost to get to a safer operating environment for the engine. The argument is whether or not the JB3 method is effective and quick enough to prevent damage in these scenarios where the change in the environment is so drastic and quick (i.e. losing meth flow mid run)

That is false. When the meth failsafe is tripped during a WOT run timing is instantly dropped and the throttle is instantly closed. Much faster than the 10hz one could sample off the CAN bus because it's triggered off an analog signal sampled at 100s of hz.

Mike

[shifterboy45]

judgement calls on boost numbers will always be inaccurate with out defining the cylinder operating environment.

simple tests give simple results.

finding the knock "ceiling" of an engine works well with n/a cars because the cylinder pressures are lower overall, and a disruption is slightly damaging, but not dangerous. when you raise the cylinder pressures by "forcing" an air/fuel charge in to cylinder, the temp/pressures increases expotentailly.. now you have to combat that with a fuel that has a increase knock resistance, and hope for the best. so eliminating knock cant be judged by riding the knock sensing system (if u want to engine ot live for a while) - a baselne (lower in power) has to be established as a starting point and taken intermittently while watching the cylinder environment changes. if the changes are favorable, then an increase can be made, until the engine doesnt like it anymore (but still under the ceiling) this takes time because you have to start at a lower level of boost and reasonable timing.

im not promoting any type of tune, but you can now see the benefit of waiting for a tuning package that has had some road testing (i.e. extensive test on the dyno) ... at that point u can see some of the variable in cylinder temp, and correct them before they get out of check.

but you can chose to do it the ol' fashion way, it works too, but takes a lot longer and you cant control a lot of variable that DO happen.

an increase in boost without a predetermined plan on how to combat (eliminate knock) is futile. 3 key principles that make an engine run -- air -- fuel -- spark -- let any of those out of you immediate control, well its asking for trouble

[R1000K3]

Originally Posted by vase330

So question is why are the guys in Sweden running stratopheric boost levels knowing how much they pay for a 335 over there? Maybe the have balls of steel.

18-20 PSI are not really stratopheric boost. These are the same boost levels as a lot of people in US are running

[enrita]

Originally Posted by dzenno

oh so its a reflash! I TOTALLY get it now...

Great! Why do you take this so hard? I am just putting out what i know and my experience which by the way costed me 14k......