[JAXT88]

Where's Chubbs when you need him??

[Clap135]

Your theory is wrong, please provide proof. Because the stock ecu will always raise timing to the preset amount meant for a stock car.

[Move.Over]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

At some point no amount of reasonable timing retard can stop detonation at a given effective compression with low enough octane. If you get to that point the DME throws a limp code and shuts off boost.

Mike

or with recommened octane and double the boost

[JAXT88]

http://img64.imageshack.us/i/3800fc60641b67vb.jpg/sr=1

Where's Chubbs when you need him??

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Move.Over

or with recommened octane and double the boost

Exactly.

[InCityPhoto]

Originally Posted by Clap135

Your theory is wrong, please provide proof. Because the stock ecu will always raise timing to the preset amount meant for a stock car.

Its not a theory, its how the Knock sensors work, they reduce timing as knock frequency's are detected, do they not?

If they are unable to do so, It throws a limp code and stops boost.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by InCityPhoto

Its not a theory, its how the Knock sensors work, they reduce timing as knock frequency's are detected, do they not?

If they are unable to do so, It throws a limp code and stops boost.

Yes but stock ecu logic also raises ignition to preset points. Please provide proof of the limp code and boost shut off. List codes and conditions required. Also please provide proof, why those limps/boost shut off didnt save the sweden engines?

[ianthegreat]

Originally Posted by Clap135

Why are you mentiong 430whp on race gas/meth aplications and the say jb user at 19psi is not the average user? Mike can you name one active member on here that has had a juicebox tune for 3 years? You and terry don't count.

Me. I've gone through all mass production lines. JB1, 2 (w/ pills), 3, and probably 4 soon. I've logged 50k+ miles and have had nothing but a hpfp failure at around 44k miles.

Additionally, in those 3 years I have more slips than you care to count.

[topspin]

Originally Posted by InCityPhoto

As long as you stay within the range the OEM knock sensor can control, in theory it will continually lower the timing until the car runs without constant knocking, if it is unable to do so, it will throw the limp code and boost will be removed. Correct?

I think you're missing the point others are trying to make or perhaps you don't agree with it.

These timing reductions are temporary and that the ECU will attempt to raise timing over and over again only to knock each time causing temporary timing trims.

I think that's the point. There will be constant knocking.

You're saying just the opposite that there won't be constant knock.

[shifterboy45]

From the looks of this whole thread -- it COULD be very informative to non-tuners and newbies alike.

its clear that a majority of forum members know specific engine technology terms like timing , advance, retard, IAT, TPS and various other acronyms, but how they all work together to make an engine run eludes the masses.

if valiant tuner would step up to educate these people it would reduce the agressive overtones and promote their market share. knowledge is power (really it is, and its something that no one can steal from you)

truth will prevail, but yes there will be some that believe the man that sells snake oil -- its just human nature.

beware, engine technology is not something you can read in a little blurb online or in a magazine -- understanding little parts make you more dangerous than if you knew nothing.

if you would like to visualize the effects of detonation on a forced induction engine -- go to a drag strip and see a AA fueler launch a blower 50ft into the air -- now i know that is extreme, but think of it expontentially

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by InCityPhoto

As long as you stay within the range the OEM knock sensor can control, in theory it will continually lower the timing until the car runs without constant knocking, if it is unable to do so, it will throw the limp code and boost will be removed. Correct?

Yes, the system is designed to range timing up to the knock threshold. If it ever gets to a point that reducing timing in 3 degree increments is not reducing its perception of early knock it assumes you are experiencing preignition and limps. The codes left behind will say "ignition glow" and the cylinder that it flagged them with. So those are what you want to watch for and avoid.

Mike

[Ilma]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

Have you driven a JB4? Here is what another PROcede user had to say about it. So don't be so quick to lump your JB3 complaints in with the JB4. It's an entirely new system just at the very beginning of development and it's already 100x better than the JB3.

Wow.....talk about self-incrimination!

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by ianthegreat

Me. I've gone through all mass production lines. JB1, 2 (w/ pills), 3, and probably 4 soon. I've logged 50k+ miles and have had nothing but a hpfp failure at around 44k miles.

Additionally, in those 3 years I have more slips than you care to count.

1.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

For the people that dont know what knock is...

http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=what+is+knock

OK....

Now you know what knock is, in essence spark and fuel are ignited at precise times during the combustion process. When you knock, there is too much advance on ignition, which in essence means the internal combustion happend too soon (while the piston was not at top dead center).
There is a precise time you want spark to occur with fuel. That happy time will provide the most power safely, without being too soon in the combustion stroke.
If the combustion process happens to early or too late it creates an EXCESSIVE amount of pressure on the engine hardware.

You can have a situation where knock did not cause catastrophic failure immediately , HOWEVER, over time this ABUSIVE manner will degrade the integrity of the hardware in the engine.

It will either cause premature failure overtime OR one good enough knock will blow the engine right then and there.


***

Too the newbs, this discussion isnt about the performance of any said tune. Or the fact that your car is still running.

Its to show the correct way of tuning, which involves finding the most power SAFELY..... Keyword SAFELY (and correct).

In any other community, people tune conservatively. That is a tuning manner in which you tune simply for power, and reduce ignition ever so slightly for SAFETY. Yet there are few products out there that insist on riding that safety line way too close, and sometimes going beyond the safe line. Your playing with fire.

[InCityPhoto]

Originally Posted by topspin

I think you're missing the point others are trying to make or perhaps you don't agree with it.

These timing reductions are temporary and that the ECU will attempt to raise timing over and over again only to knock each time causing temporary timing trims.

I think that's the point. There will be constant knocking.

You're saying just the opposite that there won't be constant knock.

I am saying that without some data showing the "severity" of these knocking frequency's that there argument is invalid because for all they know it could be harmless or it could be completely detrimental to the engine, which is unlikely considering the amount of N54's it is currently being used in.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

Yes, the system is designed to range timing up to the knock threshold. If it ever gets to a point that reducing timing in 3 degree increments is not reducing its perception of early knock it assumes you are experiencing preignition and limps. The codes left behind will say "ignition glow" and the cylinder that it flagged them with. So those are what you want to watch for and avoid.

Mike

So why didnt this work for all the motors that blew using various tunes? Where was the boost cut/limp mode?

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by InCityPhoto

I am saying that without some data showing the "severity" of these knocking frequency's that there argument is invalid because for all they know it could be harmless or it could be completely detrimental to the engine, which is unlikely considering the amount of N54's it is currently being used in.

please provide proof of this. Very simple.

[InCityPhoto]

Originally Posted by Clap135

please provide proof of this. Very simple.

You are the prosecutor in this argument, You should have to provide data stating otherwise.

You in theory are asking for the same "proof" I am asking you for and you are unable to obtain this said data.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by InCityPhoto

You are the prosecutor in this argument, You should have to provide data stating otherwise.

The data is in this thread. You are the one trying to recreate the wheel, please provide data as what you are saying goes AGAINST every tuning principle.

[InCityPhoto]

Originally Posted by Clap135

The data is in this thread. You are the one trying to recreate the wheel, please provide data as what you are saying goes AGAINST every tuning principle.

Asking again to repost data showing knock severity at each PSI

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by InCityPhoto

Asking again to repost data showing knock severity at each PSI

Asking again, to serach the thread. If that fails, you can always rely on common sense, if that fails, which it appears it has, then you can simply add 8 pages to thread with useless comments.

[InCityPhoto]

Originally Posted by Clap135

Asking again, to serach the thread. If that fails, you can always rely on common sense, if that fails, which it appears it has, then you can simply add 8 pages to thread with useless comments.

Seems that the side that is saying that there is data is unable to provide said data.