[Numb3rs]

Originally Posted by E82tt6

Saying "engineering" is easy, doing it is hard.

As I said in a later post, one could completely disassemble the engine, find what stresses in terms of heat, bending force, compressing force, etc

<snip>


Not ragging on Dinan, just saying, there isn't all that much more extra "engineering" that goes into their tune, if ANY more. They just run less boost in the upper RPMs than other tuners, and charge a bit more for the built-in "insurance"

Only because you think a harness with 10 wires has more control over the engine management function than the ECU..!

Jim Conforti himself, had to register on these boards, just to slap Shiv on the hands when he started spouting off the same thing earlier this year. A piggyback only has about 1/5th the function of what a ECU has control over.

To think that Procede has more safeguards than the actual BMW ECU is beyond laughable. The mere presence of having a piggyback implies your are feeding the ECU erroneous data in hopes of fooling it.


Secondly, you make a large assumption about how Dinan tunes their cars. Do you know for a fact that Dinan didn't bench test the N54..? Dinan is also an engineering firm that races cars. Their facility is top notch with many more resources. Somehow, that doesn't mean much to you.

I have not seen Vishnu Tunning post a doc providing all the information Dinan has, perhaps they do not have the facility or means to do so. That alone suggest your whole post is moot!

Again, I am not ragging on Shiv/Vishnu, just saying..!

[KWA VaTech]

Originally Posted by Numb3rs

Only because you think a harness with 10 wires has more control over the engine management function than the ECU..!

Jim Conforti himself, had to register on these boards, just to slap Shiv on the hands when he started spouting off the same thing earlier this year. A piggyback only has about 1/5th the function of what a ECU has control over.

To think that Procede has more safeguards than the actual BMW ECU is beyond laughable. The mere presence of having a piggyback implies your are feeding the ECU erroneous data in hopes of fooling it.


Secondly, you make a large assumption about how Dinan tunes their cars. Do you know for a fact that Dinan didn't bench test the N54..? Dinan is also an engineering firm that races cars. Their facility is top notch with many more resources. Somehow, that doesn't mean much to you.

I have not seen Vishnu Tunning post a doc providing all the information Dinan has, perhaps they do not have the facility or means to do so. That alone suggest your whole post is moot!

Again, I am not ragging on Shiv/Vishnu, just saying..!

+1 and dammmmmmn

he had me at BMW doesn't R&D their engines

Originally Posted by E82tt6

I don't mean to sound like a smartass, but what you're suggesting isn't possible. I'd suggest sticking with a completely stock car if you're adamnt about it being 100% backed up. Even BMW doesn't know when something will go wrong, but they're betting big bucks that it will be after the warranty runs out

No, BMW is not a fortune teller but, they know the limits of their engine and so does any “great” tuner.

[aaronb]

Originally Posted by Potty_Pants

I'm a Dinan guy but how can Shiv or Terry enforce a proposed warranty... Dinan already has the dealer network in place. While I would like to see a warranty from those guys i dont feel its even remotely possible. And even if they could offer a warranty they would need to charge $2k plus for it.

ppp

Not all dinan dealers are bmw dealers. When there's a Dinan claim (even at the dealer), they submit the estimate to Dinan, and Dinan writes the dealer a check. Terry & Shiv could do the same.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Numb3rs

Only because you think a harness with 10 wires has more control over the engine management function than the ECU..!

Jim Conforti himself, had to register on these boards, just to slap Shiv on the hands when he started spouting off the same thing earlier this year. A piggyback only has about 1/5th the function of what a ECU has control over.

To think that Procede has more safeguards than the actual BMW ECU is beyond laughable. The mere presence of having a piggyback implies your are feeding the ECU erroneous data in hopes of fooling it.


Secondly, you make a large assumption about how Dinan tunes their cars. Do you know for a fact that Dinan didn't bench test the N54..? Dinan is also an engineering firm that races cars. Their facility is top notch with many more resources. Somehow, that doesn't mean much to you.

I have not seen Vishnu Tunning post a doc providing all the information Dinan has, perhaps they do not have the facility or means to do so. That alone suggest your whole post is moot!

Again, I am not ragging on Shiv/Vishnu, just saying..!

But you're also speaking nonsense.

[branabolic]

Originally Posted by cn555ic

... I think I would have shitted on myself if this happened to me...Damn that sucks balls

i found this very funny, but i take shitting of the pants very seriously and i believe the term you were looking is "shat". just tryin to relieve some tension in this long and very informing thread

[Kbueno]

Originally Posted by Numb3rs

Secondly, you make a large assumption about how Dinan tunes their cars. Do you know for a fact that Dinan didn't bench test the N54..? Dinan is also an engineering firm that races cars. Their facility is top notch with many more resources. Somehow, that doesn't mean much to you.

I have not seen Vishnu Tunning post a doc providing all the information Dinan has, perhaps they do not have the facility or means to do so. That alone suggest your whole post is moot!

Again, I am not ragging on Shiv/Vishnu, just saying..!

Didn't Dinan approach Shiv in hopes of purchasing re-labeled Vishnu piggybacks?? Funny they would consider that since they have so much more resources according to you.


Back on Topic: When do we see pics of the defunct turbo? and a probable cause?

[ybbiz34]

Originally Posted by 335lvr

Didn't Dinan approach Shiv in hopes of purchasing re-labeled Vishnu piggybacks?? Funny they would consider that since they have so much more resources according to you.

Heard about that a while ago. Never saw any proof to confirm it.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by ybbiz34

Heard about that a while ago. Never saw any proof to confirm it.

Just ask him. I don't think he'll deny it.

Shiv

[E82tt6]

I think you need to re-read what I said in my post.

I didn't say the piggyback had more control over the engine than the ECU. I said that Vishnu altered/controlled more than Dinan does.

If you can point out anywhere that Dinan has said otherwise, I'm all ears. In the meantime, calm down kiddo. You seem kinda up-tight, and quick to jump on people without reading what they actually wrote. You're probably just in a bad mood, so I won't take it personally, but your reading comprehension doesn't seem to be up to speed.

As for how Dinan does or doesn't engineer their products, I'm SURE if they did anything close to what I suggested, they'd be real quick to let you know about it. I HIGHLY doubt that they did. It doesn't make sense for them to do that, when they could just do what they did. Crank an extra 40rwhp out of the motor (well within BMW's tolerances) and call it a day.

Sorry if you missed any of that the first time. Let me know if it's more clear now!

Originally Posted by Numb3rs

Only because you think a harness with 10 wires has more control over the engine management function than the ECU..!

Jim Conforti himself, had to register on these boards, just to slap Shiv on the hands when he started spouting off the same thing earlier this year. A piggyback only has about 1/5th the function of what a ECU has control over.

To think that Procede has more safeguards than the actual BMW ECU is beyond laughable. The mere presence of having a piggyback implies your are feeding the ECU erroneous data in hopes of fooling it.


Secondly, you make a large assumption about how Dinan tunes their cars. Do you know for a fact that Dinan didn't bench test the N54..? Dinan is also an engineering firm that races cars. Their facility is top notch with many more resources. Somehow, that doesn't mean much to you.

I have not seen Vishnu Tunning post a doc providing all the information Dinan has, perhaps they do not have the facility or means to do so. That alone suggest your whole post is moot!

Again, I am not ragging on Shiv/Vishnu, just saying..!

[O-cha]

Originally Posted by stressdoc

OK, now there is the insult to Shiv that has to be dealt with. How about you (O-cha) agree to be Shiv's 4th V3 installer babe at Bimmerfest? And no fraternizing with #3...

Or maybe stand and let the guys dying to do R & D see if they can break your nose by throwing packing peanuts as hard as they can at you...

Only an insult if there is no truth to it.

[E82tt6]

Originally Posted by KWA VaTech

+1 and dammmmmmn

he had me at BMW doesn't R&D their engines



No, BMW is not a fortune teller but, they know the limits of their engine and so does any “great” tuner.

Huh? I think you misread something too...

BMW builds the engines, and engineers them. Obviously they know the limits.

If anyone else did, we wouldn't even be having this little off-topic disscussion.

[KWA VaTech]

Originally Posted by E82tt6

Huh? I think you misread something too...

BMW builds the engines, and engineers them. Obviously they know the limits.

If anyone else did, we wouldn't even be having this little off-topic disscussion.

just think you have had some really good comments on this thread and some ones I am shaking my head too. I could not be getting what you are saying though.

I just don’t like the path these tunes are going down. I think it’s going to end up badly for the people pushing the envelope and they are too short sighted to figure that out.

Adding pressure, temp, and other condition taps is not hard to do and would be a simple step towards some type of meaningful R&D

[Orb]

Originally Posted by scalbert

True, the lower air density will also decrease air resistance with the compressor wheel but at the same time, less air is "grabbed" per revolution. As we know, as the compressor speeds change, so does the efficiency. However, the hot side is unchanged for the most part. If anything, the lower ambient pressure may help to speed up exhaust flow a little (probably not easily measureable).

Let's say car A is at sea level and running 7.5 PSI. Yet, if car A went to Denver or higher, it may well hit 10 - 11 PSI per BMW's design. That is about a 40% increase in boost. With changes in efficiency, I suspect the shaft speed would need to be higher, possibly 50% more (most likely more). Run that same vehicle at the same shaft speeds as the high altitude pulls and you will see more than 10 - 11 PSI. Without splitting hairs, say it is just 12 - 13 PSI which is still within the potential designed operating conditions set by BMW. Now add 2 more PSI and there is a 16% increase beyond the factory determined operating range. I am sure more buffer room was applied than that.

Again, this is just hypothetical. But we do have some facts. The stock turbos can supply 18 - 19 PSI at redline. I am not saying they are not choked at that point nor am I saying they are doing any other than blowing hot air. But that does lend credence that they are not choked at 14 - 15 PSI.

As I mentioned in my previous post we have to consider the changes in the fluid properties through the whole system so we can’t be limited to the one device. We can’t use your theory if we don’t know the compressor true pressure and system losses. Higher fluid temperature and pressure will reduce pressure drop in the IC. The choke line is a bit subjective but it generally means that the compressor is falling off rapidly after a certain point so I am not at least surprised that the compressor will produce 18-19 PSI considering the RPM. This doesn’t means it is okay. I have feeling this small turbo will hit a critical bearing speed and fatigue rapidly before the compressor runs out of steam.

Maybe we need to see more failures. I for one wouldn’t want to be the unsuspecting and unwilling beta tester to find this out on my dime.

Orb

[Orb]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Just ask him. I don't think he'll deny it.

Shiv

We all know it is true but it was a interim solution by your own admission. They would have given end user an upgrade path to the flash and then we have a nice bookend.

Orb

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by Numb3rs

??

BMW uses different wastegate mappings for higher altitude. Less wastegates, more PSI...

Correct?

They don't spool the turbos any faster!

What do you think happens when you alter the duty cycle to the wastegates; the turbo common shaft speeds up or slows down.

Maybe a discussion in what a wastegate is may be in order?

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by scalbert

What do you think happens when you alter the duty cycle to the wastegates; the turbo common shaft speeds up or slows down.

Maybe a discussion in what a wastegate is may be in order?

classic.

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by Orb

I am not at least surprised that the compressor will produce 18-19 PSI considering the RPM. This doesn’t means it is okay. I have feeling this small turbo will hit a critical bearing speed and fatigue rapidly before the compressor runs out of steam.

Maybe we need to see more failures. I for one wouldn’t want to be the unsuspecting and unwilling beta tester to find this out on my dime.

I would agree, pushing these turbos to 18 - 19 PSI at redline would not be safe. But what is unsure is what is truly safe for the turbos. My only point is that if they can hold that pressure at redline, being nearly 25% lower may not yield implosion. Will it accelerate bearing wear, I would certainly agree.

Once again, we are at a point where there are unknowns. Some stock snails will fail. While some run hard will last 50k - 100k. After a while we will see that there is no guarantee but will have an idea of what occurs and when. Until then, we should enjoy our choices and focus on ourselves and not about what may or may not happen to our brethren.

[O-cha]

Originally Posted by scalbert

What do you think happens when you alter the duty cycle to the wastegates; the turbo common shaft speeds up or slows down.

Maybe a discussion in what a wastegate is may be in order?

You would be surprised how many people don't actually know what a wastegate is. Most people think it's something that bleeds off the compressed air. I think it's because of the way it's named that people like numbers come to this conclusion.

[NM_BMW]

Originally Posted by scalbert

I would agree, pushing these turbos to 18 - 19 PSI at redline would not be safe. But what is unsure is what is truly safe for the turbos. My only point is that if they can hold that pressure at redline, being nearly 25% lower may not yield implosion. Will it accelerate bearing wear, I would certainly agree.

Once again, we are at a point where there are unknowns. Some stock snails will fail. While some run hard will last 50k - 100k. After a while we will see that there is no guarantee but will have an idea of what occurs and when. Until then, we should enjoy our choices and focus on ourselves and not about what may or may not happen to our brethren.

+1 good point.

Since we still do not know what happened with the snails and if it were truly a packaging peanut, I would be pissed. I don't see why these vendors are still using these peanuts to pack in our $100+ goods. Especially performance parts. I know they are cheap, but why not just tape off the ends and use the bubble packaging? Don't get me wrong even as an end user you should still make sure these parts are clear of these packaging materials, but we paid good dollar for these mods at least they could ship them using good packaging material? It's like if Dell decided to ship all their computers with these packaging peanuts.... Static like hell!!!! The cool thing about the bubble packaging is after were done installing... We can jump around happy and pop the bubbles and make the cool pops instead of our turbos popping.

[stressdoc]

Originally Posted by rmfast

No offense but I really doubt Dinan would relabel something so unstable. I'm sure they just wanted the platform to implement their own tuning. Until they got the ECU keys.

Amazing how someone that joined the list 4 days ago has such depth of insight into Steve Dinan's business decisions.

[npb]

Originally Posted by 5soko335i

the SSTT uses the high altitude mode, does this mean its within bmw safety, accpetable boost range?

+1 ?

[E82tt6]

Originally Posted by O-cha

You would be surprised how many people don't actually know what a wastegate is. Most people think it's something that bleeds off the compressed air. I think it's because of the way it's named that people like numbers come to this conclusion.

Most people seem to think it's on the cold side of the turbo, which as you said, is understandable given its name.

Here's a link that quickly describes the basic parts of a turbochargers, if anyone didn't know: http://auto.howstuffworks.com/turbo2.htm


The Wastegate is actually on the "hot side" or turbine side of the turbocharger. It bleeds of exhaust gas, which reduces the speed at which the turbine spins, reducing the speed at which the compressor spins, reducing the amonut of boost pressure.