[WeekendWarriorz]

Originally Posted by hassmaschine

So.. Yeah. You proved his point. N52 might have more *potential* at a given boost level, but even a stock N55 runs more boost than an ESS N52.

Do we need to fight off N55 trolls too now? We should be best friends...

It's not about the boost level compared to the N55, the n52 and n55 share something in common which is the Valvetronic and its complexity/difficulty to tune. I'm not comparing the results, as no where in my original post did i mention n55 numbers, I'm just stating that the tuning has been advanced and there are more people that can be knowledgeable to push this platform with the supercharger. Boost isn't everything if the ignition timing advance isn't increased too.

[socal330i]

He has a point here, many times it's been mentioned that we're stuck around 6-7 psi due to cooling. However no one has made a real effort to address the issue. Using a fair bit of bro science I'd assume that with an intercooler and full e85 350+ wheel should be possible. I think it's pointless to keep retuning without trying to get to the root of the issue (cooling).

[CobraMarty]

Any idea what the charged IAT was/is at WOT 6 pounds boost?

Water/meth injection will work wonders.
Individual port injectors, placed high in the intake manifold. This will give a greater distance/time for the cooling to occur.
You don't need much for good cooling results.

1 smallest nozzle would be plenty but with port injection you would be using 6 of them and you don't need that much water/meth injected.
Use the smallest nozzles and a progressive controller.

I like and use coolingmist.com stuff with great results and reliability.
Their smallest nozzle is the CM2 which is 2GPH. This is all you need for cooling but with port injection you have 6 of them and 12GPH. So you will need a progressive controller to control and 'turn them down' like to 25% which would be 3GPH.
This will drop at least 60-70* off your charge IAT and will give more power at the same boost and also allow you to turn up the boost +2-3psi safely.

If you use Meth instead of water, you could also use it as a fueling solution and avoid needing bigger injectors. This would allow you to turn up the boost at least +5-6psi.

Those pictures of PI meth are great except that I would mount them as far from the head in the IM as possible.
A spacer plate is easy but is right next to the head.
Once you get the 'nerve' to drill the IM, furthest away from the head will work best.

[hassmaschine]

Originally Posted by WeekendWarriorz

It's not about the boost level compared to the N55, the n52 and n55 share something in common which is the Valvetronic and its complexity/difficulty to tune. I'm not comparing the results, as no where in my original post did i mention n55 numbers, I'm just stating that the tuning has been advanced and there are more people that can be knowledgeable to push this platform with the supercharger. Boost isn't everything if the ignition timing advance isn't increased too.

I don't think the N52 is difficult to tune at all - it's not like BPC doesn't know how to change the ignition timing.

[CobraMarty]

Instead of PI, this dual injector on the SC compressor housing could also work.
Some would argue distribution could be unequal. But the water would follow the air, If the air has even distribution, so would the water.
Probably slightly less optimal than PI, but simpler.

[Noir]

thats wild!
didnt even think that was a possibility!

but yeah... I know, "dude enjoy it already"
I want to!
trust.

But even the guys over there said just touching the IM, it was stupid hot. And thats with the 6.5 psi pulley

[Phyrexia]

PV = nRT

(PV) / (nR) = T

(100kpa * V) / (nR) = T ... ... ... (150kpa * V) / (nR) = T

Translation: Victor has never understood why anyone would want un-intercooled boost, even though his first car was an '83 Volvo 240 Turbo (intercoolers came around in the 83.5 model year)

[Taskmaster]

Keep us posted on what happens next. I wonder how it holds up on a HPDE or the like.

[WeekendWarriorz]

Originally Posted by hassmaschine

I don't think the N52 is difficult to tune at all - it's not like BPC doesn't know how to change the ignition timing.

I'm sure they can adjust ignition advance lol, but not all tuners are created equal. Which I've learned over owning both an n54/n55 in my days. Some have more experience and use knowledge from other platforms/projects to make adjustments.

[atmosphericM]

Originally Posted by WeekendWarriorz

a 4-5k supercharger all for a 20-30whp extra gain.

Sounds about right to me.

Originally Posted by WeekendWarriorz

what's stopping it? A mix of IAT/cooling and tuning.

You got it! Pretty sure the N55 comes with an intercooler.

It's already been addressed here that if he can somehow design an intercooler to wedge in there, more gains can be had.

[WeekendWarriorz]

Intercooler idea, how much room is between the bottom of the supercharger and the frame/engine? Looking at diagrams and having seen the n52 engine bay it's going to be a tight squeeze, but anything is possible with technology we have today. My idea would be to run 1 intercooler pipe under the supercharger (if space permits) and another one over the supercharger/to the right. The pipes can be fabricated/manipulated in width/shape to work around some stuff. Since the plumbing would be on the drivers aide of the car. An intercooler like this could be used. Thoughts?

[Torgus]

Originally Posted by CobraMarty

Any idea what the charged IAT was/is at WOT 6 pounds boost?

Water/meth injection will work wonders.
Individual port injectors, placed high in the intake manifold. This will give a greater distance/time for the cooling to occur.
You don't need much for good cooling results.

1 smallest nozzle would be plenty but with port injection you would be using 6 of them and you don't need that much water/meth injected.
Use the smallest nozzles and a progressive controller.

I like and use coolingmist.com stuff with great results and reliability.
Their smallest nozzle is the CM2 which is 2GPH. This is all you need for cooling but with port injection you have 6 of them and 12GPH. So you will need a progressive controller to control and 'turn them down' like to 25% which would be 3GPH.
This will drop at least 60-70* off your charge IAT and will give more power at the same boost and also allow you to turn up the boost +2-3psi safely.

If you use Meth instead of water, you could also use it as a fueling solution and avoid needing bigger injectors. This would allow you to turn up the boost at least +5-6psi.

Those pictures of PI meth are great except that I would mount them as far from the head in the IM as possible.
A spacer plate is easy but is right next to the head.
Once you get the 'nerve' to drill the IM, furthest away from the head will work best.

I agree on all points. Well said. If he ends up going charge pipe meth I would vote two smaller jets vs. 1 larger.

Aquamist goes down to 1GPH on their smallest 0.4mm A jet with their 165psi pump, by my rough math. Even on a 125psi pump it would be 0.8 GPH or 4.8 GPH total with 6 injectors. That still might be too much meth.



So it looks like he will need a progressive controller which will add a bit of cost.

Where is the AIT sensor on the N52?

Originally Posted by CobraMarty

Instead of PI, this dual injector on the SC compressor housing could also work.
Some would argue distribution could be unequal. But the water would follow the air, If the air has even distribution, so would the water.
Probably slightly less optimal than PI, but simpler.

I dislike this only because there is more room for error. This is the same result as drilling and tapping the charge pipe imo. You mess up drilling and tapping your SC it is going to cost more to fix and not look as good. To fix you would have to drill and tap a larger hole and then put in a block off bung or weld it shut.

It does look cool.

Originally Posted by WeekendWarriorz

Intercooler idea, how much room is between the bottom of the supercharger and the frame/engine? Looking at diagrams and having seen the n52 engine bay it's going to be a tight squeeze, but anything is possible with technology we have today. My idea would be to run 1 intercooler pipe under the supercharger (if space permits) and another one over the supercharger/to the right. The pipes can be fabricated/manipulated in width/shape to work around some stuff. Since the plumbing would be on the drivers aide of the car. An intercooler like this could be used. Thoughts?

If you can make it fit in an area that gets good airflow and mount it correctly(not hack) that should work. You will be adding a tiny bit of lag, and a number of potential connections where you could have a boost leak but that goes with most ICs. The IC will cool the AITs down and allow him to run more boost on a smaller pulley. However, it does not address the fueling issue that meth solves as well as the fact meth injection is going to cool his AITs significantly more than an IC ever will be able to which in turn allows him to run an even smaller pulley and hit say 350whp or more. Finally, meth will be consistent where the IC is just a heatsink and will depend on the outside air temperature in regards to how efficient it will be and how much it can drop the AITs. On hot summer days he will have a drop in performance. Ideally you would have both.

Unless the AIT is super high I think pure meth might make the most sense vs 50/50 water/meth.

[WeekendWarriorz]

Originally Posted by Torgus

If you can make it fit in an area that gets good airflow and mount it correctly(not hack) that should work. You will be adding a tiny bit of lag, and a number of potential connections where you could have a boost leak but that goes with most ICs. The IC will cool the AITs down and allow him to run more boost on a smaller pulley. However, it does not address the fueling issue that meth solves as well as the fact meth injection is going to cool his AITs significantly more than an IC ever will be able to which in turn allows him to run an even smaller pulley and hit say 350whp or more. Finally, meth will be consistent where the IC is just a heatsink and will depend on the outside air temperature in regards to how efficient it will be and how much it can drop the AITs. On hot summer days he will have a drop in performance. Ideally you would have both.

Unless the AIT is super high I think pure meth might make the most sense vs 50/50 water/meth.

I do think the Intercooler is needed for more consistency, meth isn't spraying after a pull so IAT will just shoot up when cruising and the car will continue to heat soak unless you go almost WOT for it to engage again. Meth only would be using a lot of it, not to mention it's highly flammable. Just for data purposes, I live in SoCal and it's been around 80-90* ambient temp here, my IAT cruising are only about 5-8* above ambient and when I do a pull they decrease 2-3*. In conjunction to an intercooler, they would both be ideal. But in my opinion an intercooler will be more practical for back to back pulls/track then just spraying meth the whole time and using a tank in less than an hour. For the fueling issue, I believe the injectors should just be upgraded. Again, I disagree with what BPC told him saying the injectors are $700 to upgrade... More like $200-350.

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by WeekendWarriorz

I do think the Intercooler is needed for more consistency, meth isn't spraying after a pull so IAT will just shoot up when cruising and the car will continue to heat soak unless you go almost WOT for it to engage again. Meth only would be using a lot of it, not to mention it's highly flammable. Just for data purposes, I live in SoCal and it's been around 80-90* ambient temp here, my IAT cruising are only about 5-8* above ambient and when I do a pull they decrease 2-3*. In conjunction to an intercooler, they would both be ideal. But in my opinion an intercooler will be more practical for back to back pulls/track then just spraying meth the whole time and using a tank in less than an hour. For the fueling issue, I believe the injectors should just be upgraded. Again, I disagree with what BPC told him saying the injectors are $700 to upgrade... More like $200-350.

No. They are about $700.
https://www.ecstuning.com/BMW-E92-M3...tors/Checkout/

A lot of speculation on your part of what can and should be done, but I'm not seeing how you're substantiating any of it.

[WeekendWarriorz]

Originally Posted by Taskmaster

No. They are about $700.
https://www.ecstuning.com/BMW-E92-M3...tors/Checkout/

A lot of speculation on your part of what can and should be done, but I'm not seeing how you're substantiating any of it.

You want e92 m3 injectors?
Here: https://www.ebay.com/i/173449695289?chn=ps

This whole thread is speculation on how to gain power, I'm simply taking ideas that were used from other platforms and suggesting them here. If someone with the supercharger in this thread would like to take measurements and see if there's room possible to run piping under or to the right of the supercharger (POV from looking at the engine bay) then something could be possible to fabricate.

[atmosphericM]

Is there even a fueling issue? I must have missed it, did BPC say that the injectors were nearing their full duty? Or is this just a known issue?

Anyway, this all fun and all but it's almost getting out of hand lol. He hasn't even driven it yet, as is, to my knowledge. Yet here we all are picking his brain for ideas for our "dream builds" that probably won't even happen lol.

Noir, go enjoy that beast! When do you think you'll get her back?? Can't wait for you to report back after that first drive.

[WeekendWarriorz]

https://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=368899 Has anyone here seen this? I know their kit may not be the best one but they seem to have gotten an intercooler to work and managed to pipe it through. Seems like they ran the hot side pipe from the supercharger to intercooler routing under the supercharger and then the hot cold side pipe under the engine working it's way up to the intake manifold.

Edit: https://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=553322 Here's the install of that kit on a forum members car, pictures are kind of small. Video attached in that link of car running/revs/pulls- https://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjgyMDEzNTcy.html

[Noir]

Originally Posted by atmosphericM

Is there even a fueling issue? I must have missed it, did BPC say that the injectors were nearing their full duty? Or is this just a known issue?

Anyway, this all fun and all but it's almost getting out of hand lol. He hasn't even driven it yet, as is, to my knowledge. Yet here we all are picking his brain for ideas for our "dream builds" that probably won't even happen lol.

Noir, go enjoy that beast! When do you think you'll get her back?? Can't wait for you to report back after that first drive.

Fueling will only become an issue with full e85!
they're running like 60 something pound injectors on Alice and mine are 37 pound? I can't remember... but the fuel did start to lean out on the e40 mix towards the top end. My guy can get my baby back to me mid- late next week!

Gonna try to convince my lady to take some video

[CobraMarty]

Yep bigger injectors would be needed for E85.
E40 might be at the top end for the stock injectors.

That's why I like pump gas. Stock injectors will be big enough then. But for more boost will need some sort of intercooling. Water/air, air/air, chemical/liquid. Something.

ARMA, please NO. The head units fail. Their tuning strategy is BS. See how squashed and flattened those IC pipes are to get them to the front. NO. FAIL.

[rjahl]

Originally Posted by CobraMarty

Yep bigger injectors would be needed for E85.
E40 might be at the top end for the stock injectors.

That's why I like pump gas. Stock injectors will be big enough then. But for more boost will need some sort of intercooling. Water/air, air/air, chemical/liquid. Something.

ARMA, please NO. The head units fail. Their tuning strategy is BS. See how squashed and flattened those IC pipes are to get them to the front. NO. FAIL.

So how fast do you need to spin this supercharger to push 1,000 kg/ hour at .75 bar boost?

I just logged my N54 and it's eating 970 Kg/hour at 0.8 bar boost. That should be about 300 HP or a little better.

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by WeekendWarriorz

You want e92 m3 injectors?
Here: https://www.ebay.com/i/173449695289?chn=ps

This whole thread is speculation on how to gain power, I'm simply taking ideas that were used from other platforms and suggesting them here. If someone with the supercharger in this thread would like to take measurements and see if there's room possible to run piping under or to the right of the supercharger (POV from looking at the engine bay) then something could be possible to fabricate.

So used, not new (which is likely that BPC was considering) but ok.

And no, this thread started with you talking out of your behind as someone who supposedly "KNEW" that more power was available. Tell us more. Do you even know if M3 injector's are compatible? If they aren't what's the next injector the OP should use?

[WeekendWarriorz]

Originally Posted by CobraMarty

Yep bigger injectors would be needed for E85.
E40 might be at the top end for the stock injectors.

That's why I like pump gas. Stock injectors will be big enough then. But for more boost will need some sort of intercooling. Water/air, air/air, chemical/liquid. Something.

ARMA, please NO. The head units fail. Their tuning strategy is BS. See how squashed and flattened those IC pipes are to get them to the front. NO. FAIL.

Doesn't the ESS supercharger kit come with a slightly larger injector if I recall? And would an injector upgrade like the s54 injectors be sufficient? my Z4m was running full e85 stock fuel system pushing around 330whp. And by no means do I support ARMA has I've read their superchargers are sh*t, fail, and tuning is garbage. But they made an intercooler to FIT, I'm not saying to replicate it with squashed ends, but if it's been done before by some random company then I'm sure something more efficient can be made when in the right hands of a fabrication specialist.