[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by wahoo

Well what are you waiting for??!?! Shrapnel is what we want...400/400 at the rear wheels sounds just about right :rocks:

I don't think we're going to see 400whp out of the stock turbos. Might come close to it on a race gas map, but on pump gas, we're going to hit a bottleneck (turbos) before that. But honestly, we have no intention of tuning this car right up to the bleeding edge. Considering that this engine probably costs 1/2 as much as an entire EVO, we'd like to keep it in one piece Bragging rights are cool at times but the risks associated with getting them aren't. Besides, we weren't given this car this time. This is MY car and I had to pay for it!

-shiv

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Ph3n0m73

Shiv,

Any news on the effect of the Progman update? Lower numbers? The Same numbers?

Springer

There's still a couple of things I want to do before updating our car. That way I can do a fair a/b test and report the details. I'm not to worried about it, to tell the truth. Any power loss can easily be coaxed back.
-shiv

[wahoo]

Shiv, thanks for the info. Given the Xede, cat back, downpipe etc., I suppose the next 'level' would be air flow without going to larger turbos? Wouuld a new MAF sensor/throttle bodies help or would it make more sense to make more hp via turbo replacement. Keep up the good work!

Think you will have products developed and to the public by January??

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by wahoo

Shiv, thanks for the info. Given the Xede, cat back, downpipe etc., I suppose the next 'level' would be air flow without going to larger turbos? Wouuld a new MAF sensor/throttle bodies help or would it make more sense to make more hp via turbo replacement. Keep up the good work!

Think you will have products developed and to the public by January??

With turbocharged engines, things like big throttle bodies rarely provide any worthwhile gains. Subjectively, larger bore TBs alter the relationship between engine load and throttle pedal angle which may lead to some "oohs and ahhhs". But the same can be accomplished by remapping the boost control tables. Upgrading the factory intake box isn't as easy as it was on earlier BMWs. This is because the cold air box feeds both turbos with separate tubes. One between the engine and the radiator fans and the other between the engine and the firewall. There's not much room in there to put larger pipes unless we do some major reworking. I'm not saying that we wont take a shot at it but it'll take a lot of work to do something "right".

Shiv

PS. There is no MAF sensor on the car so no need to upgrade that ever

[PresaMat]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

With turbocharged engines, things like big throttle bodies rarely provide any worthwhile gains. Subjectively, larger bore TBs alter the relationship between engine load and throttle pedal angle which may lead to some "oohs and ahhhs". But the same can be accomplished by remapping the boost control tables. Upgrading the factory intake box isn't as easy as it was on earlier BMWs. This is because the cold air box feeds both turbos with separate tubes. One between the engine and the radiator fans and the other between the engine and the firewall. There's not much room in there to put larger pipes unless we do some major reworking. I'm not saying that we wont take a shot at it but it'll take a lot of work to do something "right".

Shiv

PS. There is no MAF sensor on the car so no need to upgrade that ever

Just a stupid question... would replacing the airfilter with an aftermarket one make any difference?

Also if in the future a turbo upgrade was wanted - is there much room down there to do it? Is it even worth it if there isnt much room?

[wahoo]

Shiv, as with most things in life...anything can be done with money :rocks: (re:reworking the piping etc.) Do you think BMW did it on purpose to engineer larger turbos out of the picture?? My goal is to ultimately own the M for less $.

[Borti]

Originally Posted by wahoo

Shiv, as with most things in life...anything can be done with money :rocks: (re:reworking the piping etc.) Do you think BMW did it on purpose to engineer larger turbos out of the picture?? My goal is to ultimately own the M for less $.

They had limited space in the engine bay.

Also, Shiv mentioned a long ways back that there is defenitely room for larger turbo's, but he listed a few reasons why that would not be such a great option (though it probably will be an option in the future from someone) :

1) The turbo's in this car are made of some special material (not sure what it is yet) that is made to withstand the high amount of heat this engine produces. Therefore, any turbo's used in an upgrade would have to be made of the same material ( i.e. LOTS of money). It will be interesting to see if the tuner's would still be interested in doing that.

2) The stock turbo's reach full boost/ and full torque before 3,000 rpms. Bigger turbo's would most likely be laggier (less response within boost threshold- need more time to develop full boost than stock turbo's) and likely raise the minimum boost threshold altogether (Do not confuse this with lag, minimum boost threshold is merely the term used to describe the earliest RPM at which a turbo can supply FULL requested boost).

The main thing here is that these turbo's are damn near perfect for this car stock AND when modified. They may not have the top end of a twin-turbo Ford GT, but the majority of power gains seen are found where 90% of driving occurs and where you want it on a day to day basis. In other words, when you reflash this car (or use an XEDE control unit) you retain 100% of the driveability this car has stock with ZERO drawbacks.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Borti

They had limited space in the engine bay.

Also, Shiv mentioned a long ways back that there is defenitely room for larger turbo's, but he listed a few reasons why that would not be such a great option (though it probably will be an option in the future from someone) :

1) The turbo's in this car are made of some special material (not sure what it is yet) that is made to withstand the high amount of heat this engine produces. Therefore, any turbo's used in an upgrade would have to be made of the same material ( i.e. LOTS of money). It will be interesting to see if the tuner's would still be interested in doing that.

2) The stock turbo's reach full boost/ and full torque before 3,000 rpms. Bigger turbo's would most likely be laggier (less response within boost threshold- need more time to develop full boost than stock turbo's) and likely raise the minimum boost threshold altogether (Do not confuse this with lag, minimum boost threshold is merely the term used to describe the earliest RPM at which a turbo can supply FULL requested boost).

The main thing here is that these turbo's are damn near perfect for this car stock AND when modified. They may not have the top end of a twin-turbo Ford GT, but the majority of power gains seen are found where 90% of driving occurs and where you want it on a day to day basis. In other words, when you reflash this car (or use an XEDE control unit) you retain 100% of the driveability this car has stock with ZERO drawbacks.

+1. Besides, today's latest dyno test of our car shows 370lb-ft of torque at 2500-4500rpm. Let's see a bigger turbo do that

-shiv

[rotaz]

Originally Posted by Borti

They had limited space in the engine bay.

Also, Shiv mentioned a long ways back that there is defenitely room for larger turbo's, but he listed a few reasons why that would not be such a great option (though it probably will be an option in the future from someone) :

1) The turbo's in this car are made of some special material (not sure what it is yet) that is made to withstand the high amount of heat this engine produces. Therefore, any turbo's used in an upgrade would have to be made of the same material ( i.e. LOTS of money). It will be interesting to see if the tuner's would still be interested in doing that.

2) The stock turbo's reach full boost/ and full torque before 3,000 rpms. Bigger turbo's would most likely be laggier (less response within boost threshold- need more time to develop full boost than stock turbo's) and likely raise the minimum boost threshold altogether (Do not confuse this with lag, minimum boost threshold is merely the term used to describe the earliest RPM at which a turbo can supply FULL requested boost).

The main thing here is that these turbo's are damn near perfect for this car stock AND when modified. They may not have the top end of a twin-turbo Ford GT, but the majority of power gains seen are found where 90% of driving occurs and where you want it on a day to day basis. In other words, when you reflash this car (or use an XEDE control unit) you retain 100% of the driveability this car has stock with ZERO drawbacks.

+1
couldn't explain it better than this!

[Omniscient]

Hey Shiv I live in Los Angeles so not far away from you and I am definitely interested in the Xede. Just one question, are you capable of giving us a time frame that's within 1 month of this being available. Would you say November it would be ready for sale? Or latest December? I just want to have a more specific time frame if you are able to give one, if not then that's fine. I just am getting ready to do some mods to my car and want to see if it is worth waiting for and not modding anything yet and saving my money for the Xede.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Omniscient

Hey Shiv I live in Los Angeles so not far away from you and I am definitely interested in the Xede. Just one question, are you capable of giving us a time frame that's within 1 month of this being available. Would you say November it would be ready for sale? Or latest December? I just want to have a more specific time frame if you are able to give one, if not then that's fine. I just am getting ready to do some mods to my car and want to see if it is worth waiting for and not modding anything yet and saving my money for the Xede.

Hi,
Turn-key Stg 1 installs (xede and exhaust) will probably start within the next week or two. If anyone is interested, just shoot me a PM with your contact info (phone number and email) so I can keep everyone updated with info.
Cheers,
Shiv

[Borti]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

+1. Besides, today's latest dyno test of our car shows 370lb-ft of torque at 2500-4500rpm. Let's see a bigger turbo do that

-shiv

Did you put on downpipe's? What did you change to achieve the higher torque?

Thanks.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Borti

Did you put on downpipe's? What did you change to achieve the higher torque?

Thanks.

No changes to hardware. Just some additional tuning.

-shiv

[Borti]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

No changes to hardware. Just some additional tuning.

-shiv

Congratulations, that is great to hear! This car is simply amazing. Mine is scheduled to be here right around 12/20. I look forward to doing business with you (I had some of your parts on my wrx a few years back).

One question, did you notice any valving/ vacuum tubing on the stock exhaust when you had it in the air? I want to know if the stock exhaust is valved to stay quiet at low rpms/ partial throttle.

Thanks!

[wahoo]

Given the imminent lag with larger turbos etc - It seems that this size turbo is optimized given the current parameters. To keep the torque down low as well as up the overall hp, I assume you would have to bolster the internals for more boost in order to 'up the ante'. I'm curious as to what the different scenarios are to get to 400+hp with similar torque curves. Is it even achievable without major mods? I am, by no means, a mechanical guy with respect to turbos. Enjoying the dialogue

[lawdude]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Hi,
Turn-key Stg 1 installs (xede and exhaust) will probably start within the next week or two. If anyone is interested, just shoot me a PM with your contact info (phone number and email) so I can keep everyone updated with info.
Cheers,
Shiv

Can it be done in stages (Xede now, exhaust later) or does it need to be done as a package?

[Ryan@Motorwerks]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

+1. Besides, today's latest dyno test of our car shows 370lb-ft of torque at 2500-4500rpm. Let's see a bigger turbo do that

-shiv

damnnnnn, what were your HP numbers for the day?

[sflgator]

Originally Posted by lawdude

Can it be done in stages (Xede now, exhaust later) or does it need to be done as a package?

Shiv has said before that you could just get the Xede and not do the exhaust (or add the exhaust later), but his initial testing was with the Exede and a new custom exhaust. Like some others here, I'm not interested in the cat-back, just the Xede...I think the gains from that alone with def. be enough for me.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by sflgator

Shiv has said before that you could just get the Xede and not do the exhaust (or add the exhaust later), but his initial testing was with the Exede and a new custom exhaust. Like some others here, I'm not interested in the cat-back, just the Xede...I think the gains from that alone with def. be enough for me.

The exhaust is very important if you want to come close to maximizing power output. Especially in the low to mid range where, tuned with the XEDE, it's worth an additional 40 to 50lb-ft of torque between 2000 and 4000rpm. The difference in tuning a car with a ton of exhaust backpressure and one without a ton of backpressure is huge. With the factory exhaust, I had to run less ignition advance, richer and be 1-2psi less boost in order to deter knock. With the free flow exhaust, the car responded much more positively to tuning. This isn't magic we're dealing with there. Pulling power out of ECU tuning alone isn't a free lunch. Do yourself (and your car) a favor and extract it from more than one place.

-shiv

[///Matt]

The gains from the Xede may not be realized without the decreased restriction provided by an exhaust.

This was evidenced to me on my previous vehicle.

I had a civic SI (I know, ok?) which I bought an AEM intake for. AEM claimed gains up to 17 whp. I got 2 whp. I confronted AEM, and they asked if I had exhaust mods, which I did NOT.

They told me that all their test cars are equipped with Cat-Back exhaust systems. So I changed my exhaust, and got another 12whp.

So, I'd definitely recommend getting the Xede WITH the x-haust (sorry) to truly realize your desired HP gains.

Matt

EDIT: shiv beat me to the punch on his response! lol

[sflgator]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

The exhaust is very important if you want to come close to maximizing power output. Especially in the low to mid range where, tuned with the XEDE, it's worth an additional 40 to 50lb-ft of torque between 2000 and 4000rpm. The difference in tuning a car with a ton of exhaust backpressure and one without a ton of backpressure is huge. With the factory exhaust, I had to run less ignition advance, richer and be 1-2psi less boost in order to deter knock. With the free flow exhaust, the car responded much more positively to tuning. This isn't magic we're dealing with there. Pulling power out of ECU tuning alone isn't a free lunch. Do yourself (and your car) a favor and extract it from more than one place.

-shiv

Although we understand that it would be much better to have the complete package (and the need for a less restrictive exhaust makes total sense) , please also understand that there are some of us that don't want to change out the exhaust; just adding the XEDE would suffice (maybe adding a good 30-40+ HP, instead of the 70-80 HP with the XEDE and the custom exhaust).

I know you've said before that one "could" add the XEDE as a standalone mod and make significant gains (although you haven't tested this yet w/o the cat-back exhaust)...has this changed? Are you now thinking of offering only the Xede/exhaust package or are you still going to make the XEDE a standalone option (maybe with different maps based on the OEM 335i exhaust)? Also, if you're going to offer the Xede alone, what kind of timeframe are you looking at now for this product? Thanks.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by ///Matt

The gains from the Xede may not be realized without the decreased restriction provided by an exhaust.

This was evidenced to me on my previous vehicle.

I had a civic SI (I know, ok?) which I bought an AEM intake for. AEM claimed gains up to 17 whp. I got 2 whp. I confronted AEM, and they asked if I had exhaust mods, which I did NOT.

They told me that all their test cars are equipped with Cat-Back exhaust systems. So I changed my exhaust, and got another 12whp.

So, I'd definitely recommend getting the Xede WITH the x-haust (sorry) to truly realize your desired HP gains.

Matt

Exactly! And that is with a nonturbo car. Turbocharged engines are eve more sensitive to backpressure. Again, making more power is like pulling it out of a bag. There are compromises that need to be made. And you can greatly lessen (or even get rid of) those compromises by doing complementary modifications (in this case, the exhaust). Properly tuned, the Xede and Exhaust will make far more than the sum of the parts when kept separate.

Shiv