[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by Car-Addicted

OOPS
How much CO2 is emitted by manufacturing batteries?
Producing lithium-ion batteries for electric vehicles is more material-intensive than producing traditional combustion engines, and the demand for battery materials is rising, explains Yang Shao-Horn, JR East Professor of Engineering in the MIT Departments of Mechanical Engineering and Materials Science and Engineering. Currently, most lithium is extracted from hard rock mines or underground brine reservoirs, and much of the energy used to extract and process it comes from CO2-emitting fossil fuels. Particularly in hard rock mining, for every tonne of mined lithium, 15 tonnes of CO2 are emitted into the air.

Battery materials come with other costs, too. Mining raw materials like lithium, cobalt, and nickel is labor-intensive, requires chemicals and enormous amounts of water—frequently from areas where water is scarce—and can leave contaminants and toxic waste behind. 60% of the world’s cobalt comes from the Democratic Republic of the Congo, where questions about human rights violations such as child labor continue to arise.

https://climate.mit.edu/ask-mit/how-...ring-batteries

This is the "inconvenient truth" the climate activists don't talk about. The fact that a large source of CO2 emissions is occurring from stirring up ground soil; ie from mining.

[Car-Addicted]

OOPS
Lithium’s water problem
The issue is compounded by continued inadequacies in battery recycling, with Foe Europe estimating only 5% of lithium-ion batteries from the European market are collected, with the majority instead finding their way to landfill sites.
The San Cristóbal Mine in Bolivia, said to use 50,000 litres of water per day, has even been labeled an ‘environmental and social disaster’, while the Mexican state of Sonora (where lithium deposits have recently been discovered) is similarly in crisis mode, ranked by the World Resources Institute as having ‘Extremely High Baseline Water Stress’.
Lithium-based waste is also very difficult to ship: disordered and damaged cells can be like little packages of explosives.”
https://www.mining-technology.com/fe...oblem/?cf-view

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by zx10guy

Didn't you get the climate activist memo?

"Do as I say not as I do."

"Rules for thee but not for me."

Ranks right up there with how attendees for the climate summit all flew in on their private jets.

[P1]

Originally Posted by KRS_SN

One can continue to buy cigarettes and alcohol

But one can't buy an ice car anymore after 2030.

I'm mostly worried about BBQing being banned

[Car-Addicted]

Ignoring the FACTS of EV manufacturing and disposal is just plain cultish.
Normally I believe in letting people think and do what they want but I can't tolerate the damage being done to our environment and economy by Eternal Vibration and others who are worshiping the false gods of saving the planet.
Greenie tip for the day: Read more books and do less virtue signaling.

[Car-Addicted]

Originally Posted by P1

I'm mostly worried about BBQing being banned

What are you going to have with your BBQ when you are limited no more than two beers a week.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/bid...beers-two-week

[chad86tsi]

Originally Posted by Eternal Vibration

This is about EV's not about how much power the internet takes! LOL.

No, it's about "what can I do to make a difference". EV is not the best, or second best, or 3rd best answer.

If a retort to that is "well, it still makes some difference"..., so does doing pretty much everything else.

reducing consumption and not buying crap from China is probably going to make the biggest difference collectively in global CO2 production. Lets focus on the big stuff.

[fcman]

I love how you guys are exposing how hilariously anti-science and generally ignorant you are. These are dietary/health guidelines, not legal limits.

At this point I’m not convinced you aren’t Russian bots with how well you play into the “ignorant right-wing American” stereotype.

You can’t teach an old man new science.

[gonzo]

^

[fcman]

Lol, I’m not sure I would call them conspiracy theorists, not too far off though. More “easily misled”

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by KRS_SN

One can continue to buy cigarettes and alcohol

But one can't buy an ice car anymore after 2030.

I think I've said already but I have told the con party I won't be vot ing unless they retract the 20 30 date.

[chad86tsi]

Originally Posted by fcman

Hilariously anti-science, generally ignorant, Russian bots, ignorant right-wing
conspiracy theorists, easily misled...

So glad you re-joined the discussion at the big boy table. Time to put on your big boy pants and talk like a rational respectable person.

[Eternal Vibration]

Originally Posted by Car-Addicted

OOPS
How much CO2 is emitted by manufacturing batteries?
Producing lithium-ion batteries for electric vehicles is more material-intensive than producing traditional combustion engines, and the demand for battery materials is rising, explains Yang Shao-Horn, JR East Professor of Engineering in the MIT Departments of Mechanical Engineering and Materials Science and Engineering. Currently, most lithium is extracted from hard rock mines or underground brine reservoirs, and much of the energy used to extract and process it comes from CO2-emitting fossil fuels. Particularly in hard rock mining, for every tonne of mined lithium, 15 tonnes of CO2 are emitted into the air.

Battery materials come with other costs, too. Mining raw materials like lithium, cobalt, and nickel is labor-intensive, requires chemicals and enormous amounts of water—frequently from areas where water is scarce—and can leave contaminants and toxic waste behind. 60% of the world’s cobalt comes from the Democratic Republic of the Congo, where questions about human rights violations such as child labor continue to arise.

https://climate.mit.edu/ask-mit/how-...ring-batteries

You are missing a big factor here:

1) You are not comparing the production correctly. Producing EV's includes producing the battery pack yes. Which is essentially the gas tank in a ICE car. So yes the battery pack is way more complicated and manufacturing intensive than the gas tank. Mining, materials, etc.
2) The GAS is not factored into this comparison. The GAS itself takes a lot for resources to produce. WAY more resources than electricity.
3) As times goes on, the manufacturing efficiency of EV's and Lithium Ion batteries will improve. Although I do not think it is the ultimate or best source of power long term. Its what we have for now.


Quote from Elon Musk: “Exactly. Chris has a nice way of saying it which is, you have enough electricity to power all the cars in the country if you stop refining gasoline. You take an average of 5 kilowatt hours to refine gasoline, something like the Model S can go 20 miles on 5 kilowatt hours. You basically have the energy needed to power electric vehicles if you stop refining.”

This may not be completely accurate but it emphasises the point that producing gas takes electricty and resources.

Ever time you go to the pump. You are buying something that has been:
discovered for drilling, equipment transported to the site, earth drilled, pumped out, transported to a refinery, refined, transported to the station. That is a lot of steps.

If you go to a Las Vegas charing station, you are filling up with electricity that came from the sun by the giant solar array about 50 miles away. Thats it. EV's will win EVERY time in terms of environmental impact.


All that talk about other forms of pollution...dont even get me started. Lithium mining and recycling are localized events. Mines, recycling centers or delaerships who replace and properly dispose of the batteries. Its not everywhere. ICE cars are everywhere. Everytime it rains, all that SMOG you see covering our cities comes to the ground and gets in your water, your plants, your fruits, your lawn, on your house, in the sewage system. In our oceans too. Just listen with your heart, not your head. If you can walk outside and see a city covered in pollution from ICE vehicles...you will instantly realize, ah...yea this is not a good thing. A electric car WILL fix this if we all switch over.

https://www.autoblog.com/2011/10/14/...s-than-evs-do/

[chad86tsi]

Originally Posted by Eternal Vibration

2) The GAS is not factored into this comparison. The GAS itself takes a lot for resources to produce. WAY more resources than electricity.

Source?

Do you not know how electricity is made?

It's a costly, dirty, messy, resource intensive, environmentally destructive process.

It seems clean when it comes out the wall, but it did not use a clean method to get there.

[Eternal Vibration]

You know what we really need is Hydrogen ICE cars. That will eliminate something like 80% of the pollution produced from exhaust and its still has all the great qualities we like, sound, light weight cars, a wide range of engines etc.. I don't know why this didnt get more attention in the development of cars. Hydrogen is one of the most abundant, elements.

You take ocean water or similar, distill it, convert it to HHO and put it in a compressed tank. You can use the EXACT same ICE engines you just need to change type of tank and the fuel system. Then re-tune it...done. All the infrastructure is already there. You convert gas stations to Hyrdorgen stations. Takes 1min to fill up.
Humm, sounds like a future project car for me.

[Eternal Vibration]

Originally Posted by chad86tsi

Source?

Do you not know how electricity is made?

It's a costly, dirty, messy, resource intensive, environmentally destructive process.

It seems clean when it comes out the wall, but it did not use a clean method to get there.

You are a moron:





Yes there are dirty forms of electric production, like coal, oil, and others. But that is not an unsolvable problem. Its about the direction of resources, supporting funds and the will of people, we should all pay an extra 2-5cents per kWH to make this happen. And governments should mandate it over dirty forms of production. They spend lots of money on worst things every day.

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by fcman

I love how you guys are exposing how hilariously anti-science and generally ignorant you are. These are dietary/health guidelines, not legal limits.

At this point I’m not convinced you aren’t Russian bots with how well you play into the “ignorant right-wing American” stereotype.

You can’t teach an old man new science.

The same people will soon be releasing their guidelines for wine, right?

[KRS_SN]

Originally Posted by Eternal Vibration

You know what we really need is Hydrogen ICE cars. That will eliminate something like 80% of the pollution produced from exhaust and its still has all the great qualities we like, sound, light weight cars, a wide range of engines etc.. I don't know why this didnt get more attention in the development of cars. Hydrogen is one of the most abundant, elements.

You take ocean water or similar, distill it, convert it to HHO and put it in a compressed tank. You can use the EXACT same ICE engines you just need to change type of tank and the fuel system. Then re-tune it...done. All the infrastructure is already there. You convert gas stations to Hyrdorgen stations. Takes 1min to fill up.
Humm, sounds like a future project car for me.

You can be a green proponent and be proportional and pragmatic equally you could staunchly believe ice fulfils your car needs while letting others who want to/can go ev do so.
Rome wasn't built in a day.

[KRS_SN]

Originally Posted by P1

I'm mostly worried about BBQing being banned

A lot of folk are on to electric BBQ. A coal fired bbq for me is the king of taste and I only use that. I wasn't aware that they are after that too...

[KRS_SN]

Originally Posted by chad86tsi

No, it's about "what can I do to make a difference". EV is not the best, or second best, or 3rd best answer.

If a retort to that is "well, it still makes some difference"..., so does doing pretty much everything else.

reducing consumption and not buying crap from China is probably going to make the biggest difference collectively in global CO2 production. Lets focus on the big stuff.

Originally Posted by M5Rick

[/FONT][/SIZE][/SIZE][/COLOR]
I think I've said already but I have told the con party I won't be vot ing unless they retract the 20 30 date.

Recent election failures on both ends of the spectrum is the start.
You can fool some people some of the time..based on that if you think you can fool most of the people most of the time the politicians and other vested parties will soon get a serving of humble pie.

[chad86tsi]

Originally Posted by Eternal Vibration

You are a moron:

No, Actually I work for one of the top generation and distribution electrical utilities in the country, I literally am an expert on where your power comes from.

The grid is currently 40% green at it's absolute best. guess what that other 60% is?

On top of that, a lot of that green power is hydro, which is devastating to local ecosystems. There is a reason hydro is in decline, not expansion. Dams are being taken out. It's clean but it's not environmentally acceptable.

Yes there are dirty forms of electric production, like coal, oil, and others. But that is not an unsolvable problem.

It's also not going away any time soon. At least not if you want power when it's dark and the wind isn't blowing.

Green energy is not free, and there is an environmental cost to it.

Its about the direction of resources, supporting funds and the will of people, we should all pay an extra 2-5cents per kWH to make this happen. And governments should mandate it over dirty forms of production. They spend lots of money on worst things every day.

the 2 biggest utilities in my region just increased rates ~15% just to keep up with current factors, imagine the cost of all the other new shit people are dreaming up. It will be more than a few cents per KWH, trust me, I see some of the invoices for the stuff that makes power move from source to customer. There is a reason it's not already done. If it made economic sense, it would have been done long ago. recent estimates from the congressional hearing with DOE director was in the "$50 trillion" to be carbon neutral by 2050, and that only impacts a small prevent of global C02 production. Hint, we aren't the main producer at a paltry 14% globally, so even if we reduced all of it, it's just a small % globally. It's like spending a $100 to save a dime.

[Car-Addicted]

Originally Posted by Eternal Vibration

You know what we really need is Hydrogen ICE cars. That will eliminate something like 80% of the pollution produced from exhaust and its still has all the great qualities we like, sound, light weight cars, a wide range of engines etc.. I don't know why this didnt get more attention in the development of cars. Hydrogen is one of the most abundant, elements.

Honestly you amaze me at your ability to pontificate on subjects you are misinformed about. There are Hydrogen FUEL CELL cars and there are Hydrogen powered ICE cars. They are apples and oranges.

https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy16osti/64267.pdf