[Pure Turbos]

I don't think we should be comparing to things which don't exist. Or maybe it does exist? I may be wrong. We have other turbos we are working on too...

[Pure Turbos]

Shop car update: We got our baseline dyno done last week. Car is on the lift now, getting an experimental version of our PURE Stage 1. We are going to test a few mods we have not performed on the production version.

[JETmn]

Care to enlighten us of what the mods will be?? Very excited if you can get even more power out of this! I have an idea I was going to do to my core before I send it in.

[Pure Turbos]

Well our standard issue PURE Stage 1 that we have been shipping out includes these mods:

-CNC Machined compressor housing
-Larger Billet extended tip compressor wheel
-Modified seal plate
-Modified and clipped turbine wheel
-Modified thrust system
-VSR Balanced CHRA

The other mods we will be testing, we can't talk about for 2 reasons:
-We don't know if they will be of benefit yet
-Competitors like to copy

Hope that makes sense. Thanks

[M-terkait]

Originally Posted by Pure Turbos

Well our standard issue PURE Stage 1 that we have been shipping out includes these mods:

-CNC Machined compressor housing
-Larger Billet extended tip compressor wheel
-Modified seal plate
-Modified and clipped turbine wheel
-Modified thrust system
-VSR Balanced CHRA

The other mods we will be testing, we can't talk about for 2 reasons:
-We don't know if they will be of benefit yet
-Competitors like to copy

Hope that makes sense. Thanks

so you say that you might release an updated version of Stage 1 ? like stage 1 version 2.0 ?

[JETmn]

Stage 1.1! Hopefully you see a bit more gains out of the mods you are doing. I am sure there are a few us still under CPO for a while, so this is a perfect option.

[Pure Turbos]

Originally Posted by M-terkait

so you say that you might release an updated version of Stage 1 ? like stage 1 version 2.0 ?

It's a possibility. If we do a version 2.0, it won't be much different. Just a few other mods which we are going to test in the next couple weeks. Any customers who are ordering today or currently have an order pending can receive the new mods if they prove to be beneficial.

[CombatNinja]

Pure,

For the love of God, please come up with a no b.s. overlay of stock baseline vs. Stage 1 on pump fuel. I've read this whole thread and I am more confused than ever about what this will do on pump fuel, not on some fuel mixture I can't buy in crank horsepower converted through the metric system and imported from Europe with 20 other mods done to the car.

I just want to know what this would do on 93 octane fuel to determine if it is worth buying for my wife's car. I am not getting race fuel or e85. I am not fitting a catless downpipe so I can't pass inspection. I am not wasting money on a giant intercooler for my wife's daily. I am not going to spend $5000 modifying her car. I just want the car to be faster for the odd occasion every two weeks that I drive it. I don't even care about peak power, I just want pull past 5000rpms. I'll spend a couple of grand to accomplish this. Please furnish the forum with this information. I can't be the only one who wants to know this.

[M-terkait]

Originally Posted by CombatNinja

Pure,

For the love of God, please come up with a no b.s. overlay of stock baseline vs. Stage 1 on pump fuel. I've read this whole thread and I am more confused than ever about what this will do on pump fuel, not on some fuel mixture I can't buy in crank horsepower converted through the metric system and imported from Europe with 20 other mods done to the car.

I just want to know what this would do on 93 octane fuel to determine if it is worth buying for my wife's car. I am not getting race fuel or e85. I am not fitting a catless downpipe so I can't pass inspection. I am not wasting money on a giant intercooler for my wife's daily. I am not going to spend $5000 modifying her car. I just want the car to be faster for the odd occasion every two weeks that I drive it. I don't even care about peak power, I just want pull past 5000rpms. I'll spend a couple of grand to accomplish this. Please furnish the forum with this information. I can't be the only one who wants to know this.

+1 , but it's hard to have a shop car without a catless-dp ( SO Rare).

[MNick]

Originally Posted by CombatNinja

Pure,

For the love of God, please come up with a no b.s. overlay of stock baseline vs. Stage 1 on pump fuel. I've read this whole thread and I am more confused than ever about what this will do on pump fuel, not on some fuel mixture I can't buy in crank horsepower converted through the metric system and imported from Europe with 20 other mods done to the car.

I just want to know what this would do on 93 octane fuel to determine if it is worth buying for my wife's car. I am not getting race fuel or e85. I am not fitting a catless downpipe so I can't pass inspection. I am not wasting money on a giant intercooler for my wife's daily. I am not going to spend $5000 modifying her car. I just want the car to be faster for the odd occasion every two weeks that I drive it. I don't even care about peak power, I just want pull past 5000rpms. I'll spend a couple of grand to accomplish this. Please furnish the forum with this information. I can't be the only one who wants to know this.

Haha... I agree with combatninja, except do it in a car with stage 2 upgrades... and by that i mean with my exact modifications....lol Seriously though it could make a buyer out of one of us...

[trixdout]

Originally Posted by CombatNinja

Pure,

For the love of God, please come up with a no b.s. overlay of stock baseline vs. Stage 1 on pump fuel. I've read this whole thread and I am more confused than ever about what this will do on pump fuel, not on some fuel mixture I can't buy in crank horsepower converted through the metric system and imported from Europe with 20 other mods done to the car.

I just want to know what this would do on 93 octane fuel to determine if it is worth buying for my wife's car. I am not getting race fuel or e85. I am not fitting a catless downpipe so I can't pass inspection. I am not wasting money on a giant intercooler for my wife's daily. I am not going to spend $5000 modifying her car. I just want the car to be faster for the odd occasion every two weeks that I drive it. I don't even care about peak power, I just want pull past 5000rpms. I'll spend a couple of grand to accomplish this. Please furnish the forum with this information. I can't be the only one who wants to know this.

This 95%!!!!! I already have a catless dp and wouldnt mind spending $5k if I can get the the car to 450whp plus on just 93 gas.

[Pure Turbos]

Shop car is full bolt on with 7" FMIC and catless downpipe. We took a baseline dyno on 91 pump.

[hetzle]

Originally Posted by trixdout

This 95%!!!!! I already have a catless dp and wouldnt mind spending $5k if I can get the the car to 450whp plus on just 93 gas.

Hate to break it to you but 450whp on pump will not happen with either turbo option available to you right now, the VTT turbo made 475whp running ethanol and the Pure car with meth. ~15 psi seems to be the max available for 93 octane, which the stock turbo can easily achieve and hold (for the most part) until near redline. If you want to make big power you'll have to use higher octane fuel, that's all there is to it.

[trixdout]

Originally Posted by hetzle

Hate to break it to you but 450whp on pump will not happen with either turbo option available to you right now, the VTT turbo made 475whp running ethanol and the Pure car with meth. ~15 psi seems to be the max available for 93 octane, which the stock turbo can easily achieve and hold (for the most part) until near redline. If you want to make big power you'll have to use higher octane fuel, that's all there is to it.

93 is pushing it but there is no reason with some timing being pulled you cant get over 400whp on 93 pump. Now add meth to the mix and you should easily be able to get that. Its doable. And then if you want over 500, gotta get some e-85 in the mix.

I just want to see some manufacturer come out with a turbo that can give us over 400whp with 93 pump gas. It's doable just gotta put some effort into it.

[jbarzelatto]

Originally Posted by 1cleann55

The 2500 option is vargas stage 2 JB turbo

I thought the only option for n55 is their N55 Stage 2 Hybrid Upgrade
[VTT-N55-STG2] which is around 4k?

Which one are you guys talking about?

Thanks!

[PeterPure]

Originally Posted by trixdout

93 is pushing it but there is no reason with some timing being pulled you cant get over 400whp on 93 pump. Now add meth to the mix and you should easily be able to get that. Its doable. And then if you want over 500, gotta get some e-85 in the mix.

I just want to see some manufacturer come out with a turbo that can give us over 400whp with 93 pump gas. It's doable just gotta put some effort into it.

Dream on. That wont happen with a st1 or 2 hybrid option. You need another turbo for that and you probably get a big turbo lag hole.

[PeterPure]

Originally Posted by CombatNinja

Pure,

For the love of God, please come up with a no b.s. overlay of stock baseline vs. Stage 1 on pump fuel. I've read this whole thread and I am more confused than ever about what this will do on pump fuel, not on some fuel mixture I can't buy in crank horsepower converted through the metric system and imported from Europe with 20 other mods done to the car.

I just want to know what this would do on 93 octane fuel to determine if it is worth buying for my wife's car. I am not getting race fuel or e85. I am not fitting a catless downpipe so I can't pass inspection. I am not wasting money on a giant intercooler for my wife's daily. I am not going to spend $5000 modifying her car. I just want the car to be faster for the odd occasion every two weeks that I drive it. I don't even care about peak power, I just want pull past 5000rpms. I'll spend a couple of grand to accomplish this. Please furnish the forum with this information. I can't be the only one who wants to know this.

The info is in this thread

First of all my whp numbers are not electronically generated. The dyno measures them. The crank numbers are using these and some % is added to calculate crank hp.

Second i did do a dyno run with 14-14.5 psi over most of the range with small peak to 15 psi at 5 and 5.5k rpm. It produced 375 whp with this setup. If your timings are good with these boost levels on 93 then you get similar results. That my car had a different fuel mix and meth doesnt matter too much since boost is low. However i do advice a sportcat atleast. This is recommended if you run jb4 > map1.

A dynojet run would probably yield a bit higher numbers.

[trixdout]

Originally Posted by Darkhold

Dream on. That wont happen with a st1 or 2 hybrid option. You need another turbo for that and you probably get a big turbo lag hole.

I never said either of those options would reach those numbers. Read my posts clearly.

Benefits of having a manual you can get around some of the increased turbo lag, so I'm not worried. Plus with a properly fabricated exhaust manifold you can channel the gases a bit better to help better reduce spool.
For example, some manufactures for 4-bolt turbo splits up the big rectangular whole in half and put a butterfly valve in there that opens up at a certain boost pressure, like let's say 10 psi. Helps spool the large turbo close to what a smaller would do and then have enough opening to help build boost and hold boost at higher rpm's. It's doable. I've seen or platforms capable of it. Thermodynamics and physics does not change.

[hetzle]

Originally Posted by trixdout

I never said either of those options would reach those numbers. Read my posts clearly.

Benefits of having a manual you can get around some of the increased turbo lag, so I'm not worried. Plus with a properly fabricated exhaust manifold you can channel the gases a bit better to help better reduce spool.
For example, some manufactures for 4-bolt turbo splits up the big rectangular whole in half and put a butterfly valve in there that opens up at a certain boost pressure, like let's say 10 psi. Helps spool the large turbo close to what a smaller would do and then have enough opening to help build boost and hold boost at higher rpm's. It's doable. I've seen or platforms capable of it. Thermodynamics and physics does not change.

My buddy had nothing but problems when trying to run a quickspool valve on his Subie, though I hear they're otherwise great. It would be interesting to see an N55 setup incorporate this.

[MNick]

Originally Posted by Pure Turbos

Shop car is full bolt on with 7" FMIC and catless downpipe. We took a baseline dyno on 91 pump.

When will you have the Pure turbo upgrade installed and shop car re-dyno'ed???

[CrustyNoodle]

I don't often chime in but I feel it may be advantageous if I do as there seems to be considerable confusion over the units of measure that everyone is talking about and how this relates to how dyno's work.

If you know all this then I suggest you ignore my post but if you are somewhat confused over these WHP and BHP terms then feel free to read on.

Firstly a bit about dynamometers. There are two key types of dyno but many variations on how they operate and their usefulness in measuring engine performance.

1. You have inertia dynamometers in which your power source accelerates (usually spins) a mass with a known inertia and you measure the time it takes to accelerate the mass from one speed to another. As you know the inertia of the mass you are accelerating, you are able to calculate (the bold is intentional) the power required to accelerate the mass. What you actually measure is the speed of the mass.... Please stay with me.
2. The other major form of dynamometer is the brake dynamometer. In this case some form of brake is used to provide a load to your power source. This brake can take many forms such as some form of fluid pump or electric generator with many variations on the theme (gee, I wonder where DynoJet got the inspiration from for their name?). Early dynamometers literally used a steel wheel with brake pads or a leather belt to provide the resistance. What is measured with this type of dyno is the load on the braking device - the braking device would be free to rotate except it is prevented from rotating by a bar connected to some form of load measuring device (yup, even a set of scales would do the trick). Once you know the load on the brake device and the speed it is rotating at, you can calculate the power.

So you see that with a dyno you don't actually measure power, you calculate it (or the computer calculates it) based on either the force on the brake or the change in speed of the mass (from now on I'll just assume a brake dyno as these are more common for chasis dyno's for the street). So this is where we get the concept of Brake Horse Power (or BHP). It doesn't matter where this torque is measured and the power is calculated it is still called Brake HorsePower and its unit of measure is hp (thankfully in the rest of the world, it is called simply Power and has the unit of Watts - but let's not confuse folks even more).
A brake dynamometer is actually measuring torque which has the units of ft.lb in the US (and in lots of street car talk) but Nm (Newton-Meters) in the rest of the world. Note that there is no such unit as "tq" which often seems to get bandied around as a unit of measure but actually is meaningless unless it is followed by either ft.lb or Nm.

OK, so now that we have some idea of what a dyno is, how they work (simplistically) what they measure and the units that they measure in, now we can talk about what this WHP thing that everyone keeps talking about is.
You can measure the force (or torque) your engine is producing anywhere along the power train but usually the easiest places are At The Wheels (ATW) using a chassis dyno (you can run the tyres on rollers or some bolt the dyno directly to the wheel hubs and eliminate tyre losses) or you can pull the engine out of the car and mount it up to an engine dyno (by far the most accurate way to do things - Motorcycles actually attach the the dyno directly to the transmission output as it's not possible to separate the engine from the transmission in a running form).

So, if you measure the torque and calculate the power on a chassis dyno attached to the wheels then it is called... Brake Horsepower - At The Wheels (BHP ATW).
If you measure the torque and calculate the power on an engine dyno attached directly to the engine crankshaft then it is called... Brake Horsepower - At The Crank (BHP ATC).

We can summarise this as follows:

• All (brake) chasis dyno's measure Torque (in either lb.ft or Nm) and calculate Power (in either BHP or kW). Notice the lack of the term WHP which should more correctly be referred to as BHP ATW (Brake horsepower At The Wheels).
• All (brake) engine dyno's measure Torque (in either lb.ft or Nm) and calculate Power (in either BHP or kW). Notice that the units of measure are exactly the same regardless of where the measurement is taken (this does not mean that the numbers will be the same as there are far more losses the further you are from the actual crank).

If you are still with me then I hope you will now understand that when Darkhold supplies power numbers from a chassis dyno in BHP and states that they are At The Crank, he is actually supplying numbers that have been measured at the wheels and then converted to equate to crank power numbers. Hence it is easy and perfectly reasonable for him to then quote results from the same runs as BHP At The Wheels (referred to in earlier posts as WHP).

Much of this confusion could be eliminated if everyone stopped using incorrect measures and units (like WHP and TQ) and started using standard engineering units (like BHP, kW, lb.ft, Nm). But that might not be possible as it would require the typing of a couple more characters!

Please feel free to disagree!

[Slops]

Originally Posted by CrustyNoodle

I don't often chime in but I feel it may be advantageous if I do as there seems to be considerable confusion over the units of measure that everyone is talking about and how this relates to how dyno's work.

If you know all this then I suggest you ignore my post but if you are somewhat confused over these WHP and BHP terms then feel free to read on.

Firstly a bit about dynamometers. There are two key types of dyno but many variations on how they operate and their usefulness in measuring engine performance.

1. You have inertia dynamometers in which your power source accelerates (usually spins) a mass with a known inertia and you measure the time it takes to accelerate the mass from one speed to another. As you know the inertia of the mass you are accelerating, you are able to calculate (the bold is intentional) the power required to accelerate the mass. What you actually measure is the speed of the mass.... Please stay with me.
2. The other major form of dynamometer is the brake dynamometer. In this case some form of brake is used to provide a load to your power source. This brake can take many forms such as some form of fluid pump or electric generator with many variations on the theme (gee, I wonder where DynoJet got the inspiration from for their name?). Early dynamometers literally used a steel wheel with brake pads or a leather belt to provide the resistance. What is measured with this type of dyno is the load on the braking device - the braking device would be free to rotate except it is prevented from rotating by a bar connected to some form of load measuring device (yup, even a set of scales would do the trick). Once you know the load on the brake device and the speed it is rotating at, you can calculate the power.

So you see that with a dyno you don't actually measure power, you calculate it (or the computer calculates it) based on either the force on the brake or the change in speed of the mass (from now on I'll just assume a brake dyno as these are more common for chasis dyno's for the street). So this is where we get the concept of Brake Horse Power (or BHP). It doesn't matter where this torque is measured and the power is calculated it is still called Brake HorsePower and its unit of measure is hp (thankfully in the rest of the world, it is called simply Power and has the unit of Watts - but let's not confuse folks even more).
A brake dynamometer is actually measuring torque which has the units of ft.lb in the US (and in lots of street car talk) but Nm (Newton-Meters) in the rest of the world. Note that there is no such unit as "tq" which often seems to get bandied around as a unit of measure but actually is meaningless unless it is followed by either ft.lb or Nm.

OK, so now that we have some idea of what a dyno is, how they work (simplistically) what they measure and the units that they measure in, now we can talk about what this WHP thing that everyone keeps talking about is.
You can measure the force (or torque) your engine is producing anywhere along the power train but usually the easiest places are At The Wheels (ATW) using a chassis dyno (you can run the tyres on rollers or some bolt the dyno directly to the wheel hubs and eliminate tyre losses) or you can pull the engine out of the car and mount it up to an engine dyno (by far the most accurate way to do things - Motorcycles actually attach the the dyno directly to the transmission output as it's not possible to separate the engine from the transmission in a running form).

So, if you measure the torque and calculate the power on a chassis dyno attached to the wheels then it is called... Brake Horsepower - At The Wheels (BHP ATW).
If you measure the torque and calculate the power on an engine dyno attached directly to the engine crankshaft then it is called... Brake Horsepower - At The Crank (BHP ATC).

We can summarise this as follows:

• All (brake) chasis dyno's measure Torque (in either lb.ft or Nm) and calculate Power (in either BHP or kW). Notice the lack of the term WHP which should more correctly be referred to as BHP ATW (Brake horsepower At The Wheels).
• All (brake) engine dyno's measure Torque (in either lb.ft or Nm) and calculate Power (in either BHP or kW). Notice that the units of measure are exactly the same regardless of where the measurement is taken (this does not mean that the numbers will be the same as there are far more losses the further you are from the actual crank).

If you are still with me then I hope you will now understand that when Darkhold supplies power numbers from a chassis dyno in BHP and states that they are At The Crank, he is actually supplying numbers that have been measured at the wheels and then converted to equate to crank power numbers. Hence it is easy and perfectly reasonable for him to then quote results from the same runs as BHP At The Wheels (referred to in earlier posts as WHP).

Much of this confusion could be eliminated if everyone stopped using incorrect measures and units (like WHP and TQ) and started using standard engineering units (like BHP, kW, lb.ft, Nm). But that might not be possible as it would require the typing of a couple more characters!

Please feel free to disagree!

This crusty noodle just turned into a slippery one Thanks for this post sir!